MuthSera's page

MuthSera wrote:

bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."

Let's cite the whole phrase:

Quote:

If an attack deals less damage than you still have as temporary hit points from force ward, it still reduces those temporary hit points but otherwise counts as a miss for the purpose of abilities that trigger on a hit or a miss.

Sneak attack damage doesn't trigger on a hit; it is part of the damage dealt by the hit.

Again, if they were counted to have missed, then they obviously didn't sink their blade into delicious flesh, and therefor didn't meet the requirements for sneak attack of "reaching the vital spot."

I meant AC, not HP... for the mage armor*

bbangerter : It's not treated the same as temp HP. It includes the phrase: If it fails to penetrate, it counts as a miss."

Belafon : Correct. Mage armor changes your HP, and when you fail to hit your target, you also noticably do not deal sneak attack damage, do you?

I grok do u : Correct. Nobody is talking about concealment. We're talking about your blade never touching flesh, and therefor never having dealt sneak attack damage in the first place.

If the rogue was stabbing through the field, he wouldn't only start dealing damage once the field was entirely collapsed. He would be dealing part of the damage to the field and part of the damage to the person inside it.

Which again is an argument for sneak attack not being applicable until the shield is down.

I've included a helpful picture of how we might see it play out in reality.

(tongue in cheek. Not sure if there's a better way to post pictures.)

https://ibb.co/9kdWMh38

Stoneskin doesn't explicitly turn hits into misses.

Precision damage is a result of striking precisely. Striking vital points. A telekinetic field has no vital points. Until you penetrate the field, you're literally whiffing on ablative barrier surrounding the target.

Imagine that a person is inside of a sphere of force. Would you deal sneak attack to that sphere as well? Thematically it's identical..

Mechanically however, we see that a failure to penetrate the shield means a target misses, and if they missed, they certainly didn't reach a juicy throat, or kidney, or vital artery.....

And the wording and rules lean into that.

Now it's a HIGHLY unusual case, but both the theme and written mechanics bear it out.

We don't usually see retroactive misses, but that's how the effect works.

RAW (rules as written): roll all damage THEN apply the DR

RAW says you need to reach the target to deal sneak attack damage.

it also says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."

ANY TIME.

The correct way (according to the rules) is roll all the damage, including sneak attack, then apply DR

"ANY TIME" is behind the precondition of hitting the target. While it's unusual, in this unique situation, sneak attack damage should only be dealt if and only if the attack would first penetrate the ward.

That's both thematically and mechanics as written. You have to reach the target.

“Reach such a spot” is basically vestigial flavor text. It’s referring to vitals being out of reach because of size. But I’ve never seen a rogue in Pathfinder being unable to sneak attack a target because it’s too large.

I disagree. There's never been a more relevant writing of that.

If you're striking a telekinetic ward that deflects blows, you're obviously not striking the vital points you wished to hit. The telekinetic ward has no discernible anatomy.

The replies here stating that the sneak attack damage would apply are incorrect.

The wording on sneak attack includes the following:

"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."

Notice the part where it says "Must be able to reach the spot."

However, Force sword Thematically isn't a buffer of life, but instead is a telekinetic field which is deflecting blows away entirely.

This is further backed up by the phrasing "otherwise counts as a miss"

Meaning, the blow is deflected away. The rogue has failed to reach the vital spot they wanted to strike.

That means this falls into 2 categories: Thematic and mechanical interpretation.

Thematic: If you were trying to stab someone in the kidneys for extra damage, you obviously didn't deal bonus precision damage if you never hit them at all.

Mechanical: Since the attack didn't hit, and sneak attack explicitly requires that you be able to reach the target in order to deal the damage, then the damage wasn't dealt.

It does create an unusual situation of "Schrodinger's damage", but in this unique situation, it's correct to roll weapon damage without sneak attacks, and then apply sneak attack damage if and only if the weapon damage completely penetrates the ward and counts as a hit, therefor meeting the qualifications of the sneak attack.