vital strike and sunder interaction

[fel_horfrost]

Can you use vital strike on a sunder attack?

[Josh-o-Lantern]

Yes

[Avh]

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

[Faelyn]

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Avh is correct.

[Johnny_Devo]

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Actually, vital strike states that when you use the attack action to do it, it gives you the extra damage. As we know, an attack can be substituted with a sunder maneuver.

And, even still, the rules of using a sunder (or similar maneuver) involve replacing any melee basic attack with that maneuver. So, when you're using vital strike, even if it was its own standard action, you may combine the effects of vital strike with sunder.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Faelyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Avh is correct.

Incorrect. Vital Strike is not a Standard action but something you can choose to do as part of an Attack action, as is Sunder.

[Kazaan]

Even if Vital Strike were its own standard action (it isn't), you could still combine it with Sunder because Sunder replaces any melee attack. You can Sunder during your Cleave, you can Sunder as an AoO, you can Sunder using Spellstrike, etc. And the extra damage from Vital Strike isn't precision damage or, otherwise, damage to which an object would be immune, so you're good to go; vital strike their armor or weapon into oblivion.

[Claxon]

Yes, you can vital strike and sunder.

Mostly because sunder can replace any melee attack.

[mdt]

You can also Power Attack a sunder attempt, so theoretically, you can Power Attack a Vital Strike Sunder, if you have all the feats.

[Kazaan]

mdt wrote:

You can also Power Attack a sunder attempt, so theoretically actually, you can Power Attack a Vital Strike Sunder, if you have all the feats.

Fixed it for you.

[Imbicatus]

Melee Tactics Toolbox has a rules clarification on vital strike and other actions:

Melee Tactics Toolbox wrote:

Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack], as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don't cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn't otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can't combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren't attack actions, such as Cleave.

Vital Strike is an attack action, not it's own type of action. Sunder is an attack action. You can combine the two.

[mdt]

Kazaan wrote:

mdt wrote:

You can also Power Attack a sunder attempt, so theoretically actually, you can Power Attack a Vital Strike Sunder, if you have all the feats.

Fixed it for you.

Not really, since you can only do it if you have all the feats. Therefore, theoretically, the OP's player could, if they have all the feats. If they do not, they can't. Given we have no access to his build, it's just theoretical, not actual.

[Kazaan]

@mdt: A theory explains observed data. If you observed a player make an attack that dealt significantly more damage on a Sunder than such an attack normally would, but you didn't know what feats/abilities they had, you might develop a hypothesis that he has Power Attack and Vital Strike. You might go about testing this hypothesis and, if you cannot otherwise rule it out or find a better explanation, you rely on the Power Attack + Vital Strike theory. What you are talking about isn't a theoretical matter since it isn't explaining any observed data. This is an actual matter since all the rules and their interactions, in this context, are known. Alternatively, it might be a potential matter if, instead of talking about the rules in general, you are specifying the potential of a specific character. So, the correct statement to make would be one of the following:

... so actually, you can Power Attack a Vital Strike Sunder, if you have all the feats. General: stating an actual fact in the rules.

... so potentially, you can Power Attack a Vital Strike Sunder, if you have all the feats. Specific: stating a potential usage of the rules, dependent on the actual resources of the character in question

[James Risner]

Faelyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Avh is correct.

About what?

Certainly not about Vital Strike Sunder, since Sunder is a melee attack swap not a Standard action like Grapple.

Imbicatus wrote:

Vital Strike is an attack action, not it's own type of action. Sunder is an attack action. You can combine the two.

What? No.

Vital Strike is only able to be used when doing the Standard action Attack action.

Sunder can be used with the Standard action attack action, during a full attack action, during an attack of opportunity, or during any action that grants an attack with a melee weapon.

[fel_horfrost]

I was thinking of a half orc bounty hunter that to get rid of those pesky magic weapons of his targets in a hurry
with a rage ending max damage vital strike if possible.

[Imbicatus]

James Risner wrote:

Faelyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

No, you can't because Vital strike is its own standard action.

Avh is correct.

About what?

Certainly not about Vital Strike Sunder, since Sunder is a melee attack swap not a Standard action like Grapple.

Imbicatus wrote:

Vital Strike is an attack action, not it's own type of action. Sunder is an attack action. You can combine the two.

What? No.

Vital Strike is only able to be used when doing the Standard action Attack action.

Sunder can be used with the Standard action attack action, during a full attack action, during an attack of opportunity, or during any action that grants an attack with a melee weapon.

Yes, I meant to say Vital Strike is modifying a standard action attack action, not that it can be used on any attack.

[Imbicatus]

fel_horfrost wrote:

I was thinking of a half orc bounty hunter that to get rid of those pesky magic weapons of his targets in a hurry

with a rage ending max damage vital strike if possible.

That will do it, but it will make you a poor bounty hunter if you destroy the loot you could have taken from the bounties.

[James Risner]

Imbicatus wrote:

Yes, I meant to say Vital Strike is modifying a stand action attack action, not that it can be used on any attack.

Can you explain that?

Because I'm struggling to understand an attack that Sunder can't be used with?

[Imbicatus]

There isn't one. Sunder can be used in place of any attack, no matter if that attack is made as a standard attack action, a full attack action, or a special action attack like a charge or a spring attack.

I was only speaking about Vital Strike there.

Vital Strike modifies and can only be used as part of a standard attack action. There is a common misconception on the boards that Vital Strike is a special unique action like charge or spring attack. This is not the case. Because Vital Strike modifies a standard attack action, it can be combined with any other feat or ability that modifies a standard attack action.