What's a good PC mix for this AP?


Giantslayer

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Actually barbarians have the best potential armor class, even with the -2 from rage


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Nobody in my games wears full plate, regardless of their class. Too much lost speed, they say. Even the Samurai, Cavalier, and Warder in my Kingmaker game would rather wear Mithral Chainmail or Chain Shirts instead.

Correction, the Warder does use Full Plate, but he has an ability that lets him get around the speed reduction. If he didn't, I imagine he'd be in mithral chain or breastplate like the rest of the fighters.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No one in my group has ever worn anything heavier than a Breastplate, and that was because it was found.


Weird. You must not have a lethal game like I seem to. I have so far wiped out 3 PC's in my Carrion Crown campaign, and I only JUST finished Broken Moon.


CWheezy wrote:
Actually barbarians have the best potential armor class, even with the -2 from rage

I find that very difficult to believe.


Piccolo wrote:
Weird. You must not have a lethal game like I seem to. I have so far wiped out 3 PC's in my Carrion Crown campaign, and I only JUST finished Broken Moon.

Nope, we've had plenty of deaths in the party. Every one of the members has died at least once, and due to Reincarnate being cheaper at lower levels nobody is the same race they started as.

When you get into the mid- and high-levels, there are just better ways to mitigate damage than high AC, so full plate starts losing its efficiency and the penalty to your speed and the excess weight start being actual liabilities rather than tolerable annoyances.

Miss chances due to things like Mirror Image and Displacement, Damage Reduction, and abilities that allow you to force enemy rerolls or negate attacks (being Flying, being behind Wind Walls, being Invisible, etc.) tend to be more focused on and more reliable than simply trying for the highest AC possible.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Carrion Crown is a meat grinder by design, I suspect Giantslayer is the same.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We usually run a high charisma, high dexterity type of group, heavy armor gets in the way of that sometimes.


I've read through Giantslayer, and to be honest I think Reign of Winter is far deadlier. In the former, all you need is lots of hp and AC. In the latter, you need high Will saves to prevent the fae from messing with your PC's head, a sharp mind to figure out the riddles, lots of curative magic to help endure, a really good (paranoid) trap man....

Just in Broken Moon, the wizard died of being critically hit by a gargantuan spider. The Fighter and the Cleric both died from Auren Vrood's Circle of Death spell, leaving only the Paladin surviving everything I could throw at her. Next up is Wake of the Watcher, and I expect I'll have more deaths.

So far in my game, the Cleric, Paladin, and Fighter all wear heavy armor, and all have ungodly high AC due to the Wizard crafting all the time.


Piccolo wrote:


I find that very difficult to believe.

Ok, its true though


CWheezy wrote:
Piccolo wrote:


I find that very difficult to believe.

Ok, its true though

I'd be curious to hear how a barb can get such high AC. I've always thought of Barbarians as basically the fantasy equivalent of suicide bombers: they do a ton of damage and die really fast.


Good PC mix: Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Shaman.

But in all seriousness, Giants tend to have high HP so damage dealing is not as effective as say targeting will saves which are generally poor. Plus Giants can be targeted by "person" spells like Charm Person. Turning the Giants against each other with enchantment magic could make for a fun tactic.


Spoiler:

Ac Barb
Human barbarian (armored hulk) 10 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 28)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 33, touch 13, flat-footed 30 (+10 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 shield, -2 untyped penalty)
hp 145 (10d12+70)
Fort +16, Ref +8 (+1 bonus vs. trample attacks), Will +9; +7 morale bonus vs. spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities but must resist all spells, even allies'
DR 2/—; Resist fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 45 ft. (35 ft. in armor)
Melee +3 furious gandasa +17/+12 (2d4+16/×3) or
2 claws +9 (1d8+6/×3), 2 claws +9 (1d6+6)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +14/+9 (1d8+5/×3)
Special Attacks pounce, rage (26 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem[APG], beast totem, greater[APG], beast totem, lesser[APG], draconic blood[ACG], draconic blood, lesser[ACG], guarded stance +2, rolling dodge +2, superstition +7, witch hunter[APG])
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 30 (31 vs. overrun)
Feats Extra Rage Power[APG], Extra Rage Power[APG], Extra Rage Power[APG], Extra Rage Power[APG], Power Attack, Raging Vitality[APG]
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +8, Climb +7, Fly +9, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (nature) +13, Perception +14, Survival +6, Swim +7
Languages Common
SQ indomitable stance
Other Gear +1 mithral full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +3 furious gandasa, mwk composite longbow (+5 Str), amulet of natural armor +2, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +2, 1,115 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Beast Totem +3 (Su) +3 to Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Draconic Blood (Fire) (Su) Gain energy resistance 5/chosen type and +1 natural armor when raging.
Draconic Blood, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 1d6 claw attacks when raging (1d4 if small).
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Guarded Stance +2 (7 rounds) (Ex) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC vs. melee attacks while raging.
Indomitable Stance (Ex) +1 to Reflex vs. trample & to hit, dam, and AC vs. charging foe.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (26 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Rolling Dodge +2 (7 rounds) (Ex) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC vs. ranged attacks while raging.
Superstition +7 (Ex) While raging, gain bonus to save vs. magic, but must resist all spells, even allies'.
Witch Hunter +3 (Ex) Bonus to damage spellcasters while raging.

This guy is pretty good. 31 ac base at level 10, goes to 33 while raging. Open with rolling dodge or guarded stance to get to 35, and fight defensively for 38. Average cr 10 high attack is +18, meaning an average cr 10 monster needs a nat 20 to hit you


CWheezy wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

But how does he stack up to a Paladin or Fighter?


Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Human fighter 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 34, touch 15, flat-footed 31 (+11 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +2 natural, +6 shield)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 longsword +17/+12 (1d8+15/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+6/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +2, bows +1)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 21, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 31
Feats Bestow Luck[ARG], Defiant Luck[ARG], Disruptive, Greater Shield Focus, Inexplicable Luck[ARG], Iron Will, Missile Shield[APG], Power Attack, Ray Shield[APG], Shield Focus, Spellbreaker, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Perception +11, Survival +5, Swim +5
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 longsword, mwk composite longbow (+5 Str), amulet of natural armor +2, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Defiant Luck (2/day) Reroll a natural 1 on a save, or force a reroll of a critical hit confirmation roll.
Disruptive +4 DC to cast defensively for those you threaten.
Inexplicable Luck (1/day) Gain +8 bonus to a single roll, or +4 after the roll is made.
Missile Shield (1/round) 1/round, when hit by a ranged weapon, take no damage.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ray Shield (1/round) 1/round, when hit by a ranged touch attack (even magical), take no damage.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Spellbreaker If an enemy you threaten fails to cast defensively, they provoke an AoO from you.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows

34 ac for the fighter, 37 fighting defensively.

Spoiler:

Unnamed Hero
Human paladin 10
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +10
Aura courage (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 13, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +4 shield)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13; +2 vs. death
Immune charm, disease, fear
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +2 longsword +13/+8 (1d8+12/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +13/+8 (1d8+4/×3)
Special Attacks channel positive energy 5/day (DC 19, 5d6), smite evil 4/day (+4 attack and AC, +10 damage)
Paladin Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14)
At will—detect evil
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +13)
3rd—angelic aspect
2nd—ironskin, resist energy
1st—divine favor, grace[APG], hero's defiance[APG]
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 19
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 28
Feats Extra Lay on Hands, Fey Foundling[ISWG], Greater Mercy[UM], Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Ultimate Mercy[UM]
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1 (-5 to jump), Diplomacy +17, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +10, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +6
Languages Common
SQ divine bond (weapon +2, 2/day), lay on hands 11/day (5d6), mercies (diseased, fatigued, sickened)
Other Gear +2 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, +2 longsword, mwk composite longbow (+4 Str), amulet of natural armor +2, belt of physical perfection +2, cloak of resistance +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Courage +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. fear.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10 ft.) (Su) Allies in aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs. charm.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Bond (Weapon +2, 10 mins, 2/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Greater Mercy Lay on hands heals extra hit points if the target doesn't need a mercy
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (5d6 hit points, 11/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Magical Knack (Paladin) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Mercy (Diseased) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes disease, as per the remove disease spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Sickened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (5/day, DC 19) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +4 to hit, +10 to damage, +4 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Ultimate Mercy Expend 10 uses of lay on hands to bring a dead creature back to life.


30 ac for the paladin, +2 for smite, + 3 for defensive fighting, +3 for ironskin is 38.
While it can equal the barb, it costs a smite AND a level 2 spell for a paladin, while a barbarian just rages and move actions.


Doesn't defensive fighting also penalize the attack roll? I certainly wouldn't depend on such tactics.


its -4, whatever. Its worth it if it makes the opponent only hit on a 20 instead of 16+


As a player - we're in the 3rd book. Now my GM is new, so perhaps the fights are not as deadly as they could be with a seasoned GM.

We have a Wizard, Druid, Barbarian, Alchemist and Ranger (Archer). At first some of the combats were scary and dangerous because we were so weak. However now, by lvl 9... For the most, nah. We cream encounters as written and our group is not even optimized.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You have a Wizard, Druid, Barbarian, Alchemist, and Ranger, you don't need to be optimized, you just need to show up. :-)

That would be true of most adventure paths.

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