The issue that I find difficult to live with is that any character who takes a fighter level suddenly is trained in every single weapon know to man( something that should probably take years) and every suite of armour known( likewise, years of training required).
I find myself agreeing with this for the most part. Perhaps Weapon and Armor feats should be only granted at 1st level. If you start out as a fighter at 1st level, you get all weapon and armor feats. If you start out as a wizard and multiclass to fighter, you're still only skilled with wizard weapons and no armor - you'd have to spend the feats to pick up extra weapons to use or spend feats to use armor.
If this were done however, I think the weapon skills should probably be changed to weapon groups, rather than Martial Weapon proficiency gives you one weapon at a time.
A character that takes a level in cleric suddenly gets the ability to call forth a surge of positive energy 3+ times/ day that blasts undead and heals everyone in a 30' radius, gets access to 4+ spells and 2 domains powers plus an assortment of weapons and armor.
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
A barbarian suddenly gets the ability to surge into a crazy rage boosting his strength and endurance and he suddenly moves 25-33% faster normally...
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
A sorcerer grows claws that do equivalent damage to short swords, can now cast 4-5 spells per day...
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
Sorry if it's a little snarky but... just putting things into perspective. Getting access to all weapon proficiencies in by far not the most powerful 1 level dip in the game. If you are going to neuter a 1 level fighter dip you need to start neutering all of the 1 level dips. I wouldn't have a problem with that... but just neutering the fighter dip is unreasonable.
If there are issues with multiclassing min/maxing/dipping, the best solution is for the DM to make the PC justify in game how, when, why, and where the character learned the skills. This should be the way with any multiclassing, particularly the first level they gain.
If your character can justify learning weapon skills by saying "I'm going to find a warrior to train me for a while in X, Y, and Z" and then actually have them spend the time learning, it's easier to justify. Much of the multiclass dipping is abused because the role-playing aspect of that part of the game is often overlooked. Players should be thinking ahead about what they intend to do and be able to justify why or how they would learn such skills.
Has the character spent time studying spells with a practiced spellcaster, even a PC? If the answer is "No", the DM should feel perfectly jusified in saying "no" as well. Couching multiclassing in the role-playing aspect of the game seems to be the original intent of 3.x multiclassing. I am notorious for multiclassing, but I always find a way to justify it, both for the DM and for myself.
My current character is a lizardman Warlock/Druid. Lizardfolk are a nature/druidic-based culture, so I defined him as having spent his youth tapping into the bestial and primal elements of himself and forming pacts with the spirits of the jungle and swampland around him. My first level (after the humanoid levels and LA) was in warlock, which I justified by defining the abilities as my character tapping into the primal arcane forces of nature, and I keep my power choices based on that. THis campaign started at 4th level, so the next level I took was in Druid, which I justifed by defining his warlock and druid training both having been under the shamans and medicinemen of my tribe. It has served me well and allowed me to define why my character would or would not take certain levels or abilites.
A character that takes a level in cleric suddenly gets the ability to call forth a surge of positive energy 3+ times/ day that blasts undead and heals everyone in a 30' radius, gets access to 4+ spells and 2 domains powers plus an assortment of weapons and armor.
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
A barbarian suddenly gets the ability to surge into a crazy rage boosting his strength and endurance and he suddenly moves 25-33% faster normally...
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
A sorcerer grows claws that do equivalent damage to short swords, can now cast 4-5 spells per day...
but a fighter getting access all weapons in the game is tough to live with.
Sorry if it's a little snarky but... just putting things into perspective. Getting access to all weapon proficiencies in by far not the most powerful 1 level dip in the game. If you are going to neuter a 1 level fighter dip you need to start neutering all of the 1 level dips. I wouldn't have a problem with that... but just neutering the fighter dip is unreasonable.
But someone who multiclasses into cleric doesn't get access to EVERY domain.
Nor does someone who multiclasses into wizard suddenly learn all 40-something 1st level wizard spells.
Yet, become a fighter and suddenly you can pick up every weapon known to man and use it...
Putting some kind of limit on "dipping" wouldn't be a bad idea, I think; the skill point change put a damper on the 1st level rogue dip, the weapon/armor could put a damper on the fighter dip. Others could be devised for the other classes as well (1 school of magic for wizards? No automatic domains for clerics?)
I believe its worth looking at.
I guess I should have started with my main point and gone from there rather than starting with examples.
Getting access to all weapon proficiencies in by far not the most powerful 1 level dip in the game.
But someone who multiclasses into cleric doesn't get access to EVERY domain.
No, but overall the abilities granted by taking one level of cleric far surpass the abilities granted by taking one level of fighter. Sometimes the mechanical/ game balance issues need to rear their ugly heads.
To address your specific examples. A fighter does not get access to all weapons, only all simple and martial weapons. He gets access to all weapons fighters normally get access to. Similarly a cleric gets access to all the domains a cleric would normally have access to which is 2. A cleric also has access to every 1st level cleric spell in the book... just for taking a single level of cleric.
Again... I don't have a problem with visiting one level dips, I've even made a thread about it. I just think your example of the fighter is a poor one to look at first.
I guess I should have started with my main point and gone from there rather than starting with examples.
Getting access to all weapon proficiencies in by far not the most powerful 1 level dip in the game.But someone who multiclasses into cleric doesn't get access to EVERY domain.No, but overall the abilities granted by taking one level of cleric far surpass the abilities granted by taking one level of fighter. Sometimes the mechanical/ game balance issues need to rear their ugly heads.
To address your specific examples. A fighter does not get access to all weapons, only all simple and martial weapons. He gets access to all weapons fighters normally get access to. Similarly a cleric gets access to all the domains a cleric would normally have access to which is 2. A cleric also has access to every 1st level cleric spell in the book... just for taking a single level of cleric.
Again... I don't have a problem with visiting one level dips, I've even made a thread about it. I just think your example of the fighter is a poor one to look at first.
It's more to do with what makes sense. People in our own world suddenly can perform miracles and embrace religion when the day before they couldn't so a priest 'suddenly' gaining the abilities they get I don't see as as issue( as long as the player roleplays it) even Wizard level gains must be backed up with the PC being an apprentice for some in game period before saying 'I'm now a first level wizard but some tower mage who's never handled armour (or weapons before) before suddenly goes 'I'm now a 1st level fighter and can don plate mail like a pro, handle a lance or longsword with ease'. You can't see that as a tiny bit daft?
I do generally think that fighters shouldn't get all the armour proficiencies at first level anyhow(nor any other class), give them Light armour at 1st,medium at second then Heavy later at 5th level. That way a non armour wearing characer can pretty easily justify his armour knowledge\experience.
I used to play american football(and coach) and I know how long it took to get used to the weight, mobility loss. I've also done some martial arts including weapons and know that although I can weild with some skill a medium length sword(ninja-to) I cannot weild a greatsword or lance with any real skill.
Don't misunderstand, it's fantasy but if a fantasy rogue character suddenly threw on plate mail and charged an orcish line with a lance most of the worlds rpg gamers would throw the book in the bin.
Ok let me see if I get this right...
A wizard that take a level in fighter should not learn how to use all simple and martial weapons and gain proficiency in the armors without spending extra time (level, feats, whatnot..).
But
A fighter that takes a level in Wizard suddenly gets the ability to cast spells from all schools of magic, the ability to bond a focus or faimiliar, the understanding to use all arcane wands with spells from his extensive spell list. The ability to invoke a supernatural magical power....
How about if you are a figher and take a level in wizard you only gain cantrips at 1st level wizard and you get your 1st level spells when you get to 2nd level wizard and you dont get your familiar until you get to 5th level.
If you are going to assume the fighter has spent time between adventures learning the magic up to this point why cant the same assumption be made for the wizard training to be a fighter.
I would argue that it would take more time to learn the basics of magic than it would to learn basic proficiency in simple and martial weapons and armors.
When you multi-class it is assumed or you should have roleplayed (based on how your gaming group runs it)that the character has spent time learning these skills.
In general it has always felt rather odd that all 1st level fighters get medium and Heavy Armour Proficiency straight away and should be held off till later levels. I can't see it as a big issue just a slight delay level wise.
I do actually like the idea of Wizard character being held back a level though, you letting them catch up by 4th or 5th level but initially gaining less spells as they do a crash course in magic.Sorcerer are supposed to have innate magic due to their bloodline so a PC taking levels as a sorcerer wouldn't be an issue, likewise with Paladins and Clerics to a high degree. Gaining new levels as a Barbarian should likewise not be an issue as I can never remember hearing about Ancient Celts going to Rage school.
So a fighter should have to wait to get Medium and Heavy armor proficiency but a Cleric or Paladin shouldnt have to wait to get medium and heavy armor proficiency?
As for other class abilities. I always assumed that Gods required years for faithful service from their followers before it invests them with divine power. I dont think gods just willy nilly hand out their divine energies and gifts to whoever just cuz that person prayed to them for a week or two. I would think that it would take longer for a cleric to develope the first level skills than all the others in most cases. They must prove that they are worthy above all other to be trusted with the gods power and secrets. Sure maybe a god might just need a convenient minion or two to take care of matters in the mortal world but in most cases being a cleric is more than learning the cleric abilities its a life-style and a lifetime of devote service.
Paladins also get profiecency with all simple and martial weapons and all types of armor. When multi-classing in to paladin should someone have to wait extra levels before gaining these class features? What about here other class features?
Barbarians gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor in addition to more skill points and fast movement. One could argue that the fast movement is something developed over years of living in the wilds. Yet someone that just takes one level in it suddenly gets to run as fast as someone that has been chasing down antelope on foot since childhood?
Sure a sorceres magical abilities are naturally born. The sorcerer must still spend years learning to use those powers safely without hurting him self or others. How many times had a young sorcere burned himself trying to master his Burning Hands spell. How many weeks did he spend staring at copper peice willing it to slide across the table before he mastered his Mage Hand spell. Just because something is a natural talent doesn't mean you dont spend years refining and...
As I had said before I'd personally hold ALL the class's back a couple of levels for gaining armour and weapon proficiency, including Paladins, clerics etc.
As for Clerics requiring years to gain their divine powers....fraid not a reasonable arguement, people in our own world find that they can perform divine miracles out of the blue so this can be put down as divine inspiration. Likewise with the Paladin which is a not supposed to be something you learn but something you are. A PC becoming a Paladin was always destined to be one. Lancelot wasn't a Paladin because he spent years learning to be one..he just was one and the same applies to sorcerers it's in their blood.
Weapon and armour skills are not something in your blood or an innate ability, that IS something you have to learn.
I do agree with the barbarian fast movement though, that is something that should take time to develope, couple of levels or so.
Holding class abilities back when multi-classing would require a complete rework of the multi-class system. Would it be apply equally to all classes or would sorcere/cleric suddenly become the multi-class classes of choice.
As for people in our world performing divine miracles out of the blue that can be debated for hours as to the validity of those miracles (which is something I am reluctant to get into on this forum). The cleric class and its spellcasting ability is far from a one or two time occurance of a spontaneous divine miracle. It is a learned and practiced system of channeling and shaping divine energies and power developed over years of devote service. Your cleric joined a church and went through a period as an acolyte where he was taught the faith and secrets of his god's religion. You cannot always apply real world analogies to the game especially when discussing meta-physical topics.
Even with the sorcerer I would argue that the sorcerer doesn't just have a natural inborn ability to perform magical effect. His spell are not racial spell-like abilities or something like that. They are learned manipulations of his own natural magical apptitute. He must learn to use his abilites. Otherwise, why cant he cast 9th level spells at 1st level? They are natural and inborn are they not? No he has to learn and practice and train himself to perform those feats. Just has he had to learn and practice to cast his first level spells. Just as a baby must learn how to walk (a natural ability) just as one learns how to climb or how to speak. Just because something draws on a "natural talent" or a "magical power in one's blood" does not mean that the person just spontaneously knows how to use that ability. It requires practice. Even creatures with natural spell-like abilities have to learn how to use those as they are growing up.
I'm afraid I can't see any solid value to your reasoning, whilst I agree some people would take yours of steady devotion to clerical study or long steady pace of training and learning to even master the most basic of sorcerer spells other people are touched by divinity and could gain those powers with a burst of sudden inspiration as if discovering a long undiscovered power.
Read some of the fantasy novels, they are full of these type of examples. Eragon, master of the 5 magics, Spellsinger series and a host of others.
As for the 'why can't he cast a 9th level spell' question I'd say his power was still in its early stages and that is something that must build over time. In short 'its a game mechanic'.
Don't get me wrong though, I do tell players to justify to me and roleplay the study required to gain the new class powers, but if the character suddenly unleashes Magic Missiles( or healing) with a gasp of suprise in the game then tell the other characters, he's never done it before and roleplays his sudden discovery I'll except it.
ProSteve,
At a certain level you just need to accept that some elements of the system are there for the purposes of game balance and let it go. There is only a certain amount of "it makes sense" that works in the game universe. If you can't accept that then you probably don't belong playing RPGs because the vast majority of design decisions are based on game balance and not on what 'makes sense'.
ProSteve,
At a certain level you just need to accept that some elements of the system are there for the purposes of game balance and let it go. There is only a certain amount of "it makes sense" that works in the game universe. If you can't accept that then you probably don't belong playing RPGs because the vast majority of design decisions are based on game balance and not on what 'makes sense'.
Funny enough I guessed after a considerable number of years doing roleplaying that game balance determined a lot of the decisions but thanks for reminding me( in case I'd forgotten!!). I do generally think that all the martial classes get a lot of their benefits earlier than they need to.
After all how many 1st level fighters get plate mail....I'd say 1 in 200 or less so why not hold the proficiency for 5th level when their is a chance the character may gain heavy armour. I just don't see a balance in throwing All Martial Weapons for Paladins & fighters and 3 Armour Proficiency feats and a shield feat at the Starting Paladin, Cleric and Fighter.