I feel like getting feedback this year from people outside of my immediate family and my friends who don't play pathfinder. Is anyone interested in doing some mutually beneficial review of items via private messages? I assume that's a kosher thing to ask, right? Hit me up if you're interested.
If it's kosher, I'd be game. Workshopping does sound a lot better than "Voting Cabal".
Can any old hands confirm?
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We don't know what you do in PMs, so knock yourselves out. :)
Just don't identify your item publicly.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Seems to be okay. Lots of people share their ideas PRIVATELY for review. I have had someone look over my items for the previous two years and I have commented on others (one of which made the Top 32).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8
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Private workshop groups are okay, as long as the item is your idea and you're merely getting feedback on it. Coming up with concepts and writing entries together as a group is frowned upon, because that's not (typically) the way actual freelance work happens.
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'Pit crews' have been encouraged in the past. I doubt it is any different now.
Being on a pit crew does not mean pit crew will upvote an item. It does mean (providing you've taken their suggestions) said crew probably finds it a strong candidate.
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Workshopping is actually one of the areas I'm most worried about with this year's voting. Why? Because, in the past, workshopping (and, essentially, breaking anonymity with those who workshop an item) wasn't really a big deal, because all the voting public did was upvote your item for consideration by the judges who went on to select the Top 32...and all of whom were still shielded from knowing who submitted a given item.
Whereas, this year, the Top 32 are fully selected by just the voting public. And, as such, workshopping an item...or establishing a voting cabal...or pit crew...or whatever you want to call it...will create the added benefit of everyone who sees your item knowing exactly who submitted it. And, as such, multiple voters (if there are enough of them) can potentially sway the vote to ensure that item (or even a collection of items from among those workshopping together) make it into the Top 32.
Potentially, of course.
This is actually the first year in which the voting public gets to directly decide the Top 32. And, by extension, it's the first year in which those selecting the Top 32 will likely have anonymity broken for at least a few items that make it into the contest. So, it'll be very interesting to see how it shakes out in the final vote tallies...and how much workshopping and voting blocs had an effect on it.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
What Neil said.
To Petty Alchemy and other interested parties - I would be very interested in private work shopping as well.
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Full disclosure, I have a pit crew take that for what you will. I also have people ping me for item feedback before and after the begins because it has always been an open offer. I'm also a former Champion voter and will admit it's a possible tie breaker. That said a lot of votes have arbitrary tie breakers that can go on word choice, item flavor, name, and any number of factors.
I think the type of thinking that leads to an overt concern over pit crews comes from a confidence issue. Here's the thing, only 32 people make it. They aren't necessarily the best 32 designers nor is Superstar the only path to game design.
By all means enter, but also submit to other publishers. The best way to publish is to write.
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Full disclosure, I have a pit crew take that for what you will.
I've commented on this nefarious practice elsewhere on the forums.
Workshopping is actually one of the areas I'm most worried about with this year's voting.
--Neil
Isn't the point of the current voting system in place to make that behavior less impactful? I guess with a large enough 'cabal' it could still be problematic, but I imagine were talking about groups of less than 10.
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The biggest hole in the logic of conspiracy theories is that people are really really crappy at keeping the secrets required to properly engage in a good plot.
Trust me I've tried to keep a plot together someone always squeals then you got to hire a hit man and then usually someone else gets nervous. Really not worth all the hassles.
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I'm confident I will be able to vote for the best item each time, even if it is not the familiar item. I expect the same from everyone else.
As a Dedicated Voter I saw my own item a total of 2 times last year.
You may PM me for a quick look at your item (along with your specific questions if any) and/or conspiracies against the crown.
While I think a pit crew isn't likely to exert undue influence early on, with the new rules, it's possible they could at the end. I think it'll really depend how many items are in the final cull and how long that cull is.
The reason even Champion voters didn't exercise undue power previously was because there were so many item and so many total votes cast. But now it's possibly that voters are picking just from, say, 100 items over the last 48 hours and -- while I'm not expert in statistics -- I'd think that would mean each vote would weigh more heavily.
If I see my item in their the last couple days, I'm going to spend as much time as humanly possible casting vote after vote to try to make sure I get my item into the Top 32, and if I have a half-dozen people who all know my item and also tend to up-vote it* that could give me a significant advantage in the late stages.
* Just because I know someone's item, I'm not going to vote for it every time if I think the opposite item is better. It could serve as a tie-breaker in a situation where I think both items are legitimately great, though.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mechaPoet
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A lot of freelance work involves direct collaboration, which is why I'm always confused by the disdain for workshopping items. Superstar is about finding quality freelancers, and freelancers who can't collaborate with each other or with Paizo aren't going to land a ton of work.
The Superstar contest model doesn't provide much in terms of seeing how contestants collaborate; using other contestants' content from previous rounds shows they can use new content on short notice, and reacting to judges' and voters' criticism shows they can be responsive, but the contest isn't designed to demonstrate how well contestants can work together.
It'd be neat to see a Top Chef restaurant wars-style contest where participants break into teams, delegate tasks, critique and edit each other's work, and produce something in an environment where the judges can see everyone's work and discussions. I don't think it'd ever work as a Superstar round, though, even on as small of a scale as an encounter or PFS quest.
Perhaps it has something to do with the reality show elimination round style of the contest. Although thankfully I doubt I'll ever hear one of the contestants say "I'm not here to make friends" or anything about being thrown under a bus.
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Although thankfully I doubt I'll ever hear one of the contestants say "I'm not here to make friends."
In fact, it's the opposite. I've made a number of friends through Superstar, including people I've competed directly against. Mikko and I have been producing work together, having been brought together from Finland and the United States solely by Superstar. It's one of my favorite aspects of the contest, that, even though I totally wanted to beat my fellow competitors, we are all able to remain civil and have fun together.
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I in fact use Superstar to recruit and have learned to consider my humble 3PP as a sudo design school.
This contest has led to many friendships and collaborations for me and I look forward to it every year.
I'm not sure my voting cabal would be nearly as powerful without it...
For those who are in the know: Has there been massive distance in the past between the Top 32 selected by the official judges and the top 32 that would have been selected if the voters had decided? Or have the two sets of judges largely converged?
It's not really clear. Previously, the public vote sorted them and the judges picked.
I believe the first year, the lowest-ranked item was 89 (or maybe there was just a clear delineation in the number of votes between the Top 89 and the rest?), meaning obviously a number of items ahead of it didn't make the cut. I know at least one item in the Top 5 wasn't picked.
So I think it's safe to say they are similar lists but haven't been exact in the years we've had both. (Of course, the judges may not have ever seen something that didn't make the Top 100 and potentially could have loved it but we'll never know that.)
It's not really clear. Previously, the public vote sorted them and the judges picked.
I believe the first year, the lowest-ranked item was 89 (or maybe there was just a clear delineation in the number of votes between the Top 89 and the rest?), meaning obviously a number of items ahead of it didn't make the cut. I know at least one item in the Top 5 wasn't picked.
So I think it's safe to say they are similar lists but haven't been exact in the years we've had both. (Of course, the judges may not have ever seen something that didn't make the Top 100 and potentially could have loved it but we'll never know that.)
I believe the first year (of voting) Clark went back beyond the 89th and found nothing worthwhile. Yay human sorting power!
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I believe last year (or maybe the one prior?) that one of the judges mentioned there was a 45% hit rate in the fan-voted Top 32 and the actual Top 32 which the judges selected for inclusion in the contest. I have no insight into the actual rankings, though. I didn't judge either of those two years.
If true, I believe that's simply a reflection that the fans have a tendency to vote for items, whereas the judges were often looking beyond the item to see what its design choices told them about a designer's potential...i.e., sometimes they'd select (or golden ticket) a designer into the contest, because they liked the new ground being broken and the overall design space being examined, and the judges wanted to see what else such a contestant could do in future rounds.
It's definitely true that Clark (and last year, Mark Seifter) looked well beyond the "Keep" folder or the voter-ranked items just to see if anything Superstar-worthy had been left behind. In both cases, they wound up selecting the Top 32 from only the items which made the cut-off.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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One of the last few year's top voted item didn't make the Top 32...
Back to the topic of workshopping, I have had the honor to see 4 items this year. As in previous years, I won't let that effect my voting. I even updated my scoring system to help make voting easier.
Opting to jump into this workshop as well. Already sent a pm to Mark (OP). I'll send out a few more pms. If I miss you, please feel free to send me a pm!
Hey, so, there have been a lot of people asking for help with items. I need practice giving feed-back. Serious, calculating feedback. To help hone my own skill. Here's what I'm offering:
Send me your item in a PM. I'll review it for any Convention breaks, logical holes that break, murky word combinations, and/or MAJOR Template breaks.
I can't guarantee I will find everything, as I'm likely newer at this then some of you. All I ask in return, is that you inform me if my feedback is helpful at all, and how I can improve it.
That's right, all I want feedback on my feedback.
I will mostly ask you questions. Because, your voters will have questions too, but you will NOT get a chance to answer them. Don't answer my questions. Re-write your item to answer them.
I will review items as I have time.
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The comments I received helped me choose the item I will submit. So, it is indeed a huge boon compared to overthinking every small detail on my own (and being unable to decide between 5 items).
Now, I have to work on a better version with the feedback I already got before soliciting people again.
Most heartfelt thanks to you all.
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The comments I received helped me choose the item I will submit. So, it is indeed a huge boon compared to overthinking every small detail on my own (and being unable to decide between 5 items).
Now, I have to work on a better version with the feedback I already got before soliciting people again.
Most heartfelt thanks to you all.
I hear ya I've narrowed mine down to 3...
The comments I received helped me choose the item I will submit. So, it is indeed a huge boon compared to overthinking every small detail on my own (and being unable to decide between 5 items).
Now, I have to work on a better version with the feedback I already got before soliciting people again.
Most heartfelt thanks to you all.
I will say that all the advice so far has been amazing. However, each item has been voted favorite and least favorite of the bunch equally. So, I may be deciding on my own.
>.<Thank you so far for those that have provided feedback (though I messaged as DM-DR by accident).
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I believe last year (or maybe the one prior?) that one of the judges mentioned there was a 45% hit rate in the fan-voted Top 32 and the actual Top 32 which the judges selected for inclusion in the contest. I have no insight into the actual rankings, though. I didn't judge either of those two years.
If true, I believe that's simply a reflection that the fans have a tendency to vote for items, whereas the judges were often looking beyond the item to see what its design choices told them about a designer's potential...i.e., sometimes they'd select (or golden ticket) a designer into the contest, because they liked the new ground being broken and the overall design space being examined, and the judges wanted to see what else such a contestant could do in future rounds.
It's definitely true that Clark (and last year, Mark Seifter) looked well beyond the "Keep" folder or the voter-ranked items just to see if anything Superstar-worthy had been left behind. In both cases, they wound up selecting the Top 32 from only the items which made the cut-off.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
If you mean that there weren't any Top 32 material in the cull, that's true, but there were actually some great ones that weren't at the top of the votes; while the special judge forums aren't currently displaying last year's discussion, I wound up finding a small number of really good items that were enough below the top votes they probably wouldn't have been considered otherwise (but still well above the cull), including the item of eventual RPG Superstar Monica Marlowe. I did check the culled ones too, just in case, and found nothing that was worth being Top 32 in those. I was glad to see that the ones I found were written by contestants who had a higher rate of advancement overall, as it made me feel like all those hours were really worthwhile!
I think two of the other reasons that the voting tended to be off between judges and fans were as follows (based on which top fan items did not make the cut):
1) Some of the top fan items had significant but subtle flaws and errors in the item that a fan might not notice when reading it but a judge would be more likely to notice.
2) As a slight play on what you already mentioned, Neil, some of the voters are not only voting for the item, not the designer, they are also voting as players or maybe GMs instead of as designers, which can lead to them upvoting items with problematic designs that would be fun for the person who wields them (for another example of this phenomenon, there is a current forum thread where people list their "top archetypes" where many of the picks, with explanations, are something to the effect of "This one is great because you trade away almost nothing for a bunch of really powerful abilities.")
So that having been said: If you don't make the Top 32 this year by pure votes, don't despair, and don't give up! You might still be an awesome Superstar in the making, like Monica before you.
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To be fair, I think those topics aren't looking at archetypes for design merit, rather for optimization. You may see different answers if you ask for the former.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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2) As a slight play on what you already mentioned, Neil, some of the voters are not only voting for the item, not the designer, they are also voting as players or maybe GMs instead of as designers
I'm quite sure that most voters are not experienced designers, and voting as a player or GM is the only way of voting they know, indeed, the only way that makes sense to them. Though some (many!) fans of the contest certainly know their stuff, there will always be hundreds of voters who certainly don't.
RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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Full disclosure, I have a pit crew take that for what you will.I've commented on this nefarious practice elsewhere on the forums.
I loved that post then and I love it now. Welcome back to the show Quibble!
As for having a Pit Crew, everyone should have a small handful of people that they trust to keep their mouths shut publicly but give really good and honest feed back in private. Do not get crazy with your pit crew, you really shouldn't need more than 4 or 5 people if you choose wisely.
Your pit crew should include the following:
A rules lawyer - they know the rules so well it's painful, they clearly sleep with their books.
A grammar nazi - they know the difference between a comma and a semicolon, an em dash and an en dash, if they suggest your sentence needs punctuation, it needs punctuation.
A gonzo - they have crazy, wild, out there ideas and if they suggest you consider adding something, consider it, reign it back in and find a place for it.
A "5 year old child" - this person is a player, or maybe never even heard of Pathfinder, but if they can understand what you've written and like it, then anyone can and you probably have yourself a winner.
BUT your item must not be created by committee, it must be created and edited by YOU, your pit crew is there for feedback only. So be careful and think about what you're doing before hit that "Submit" button.
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In addition to the great team proposed by Monica, I think you also need a true-to-Gygax powergamer : someone who has this uncanny feel for a rules' loop and that can usually also tell you if your price is on par with your item's power. Because they have such an uncanny feel for power that it borders on the psychic ;-)
I must say that the few items I saw thanks to this thread are of very very good quality and creativity. If all submissions are of the same caliber, we are in for a feast of the ages of design marvels.
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Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9
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As for having a Pit Crew, everyone should have a small handful of people that they trust to keep their mouths shut publicly but give really good and honest feed back in private. Do not get crazy with your pit crew, you really shouldn't need more than 4 or 5 people if you choose wisely.
And moving this away from Superstar -- every person trying to seriously pursue a creative endeavor needs a handful of people they trust to look over their stuff and point out what's junk. Because *everyone* writes junk.
Monica's list of the types you need is right on point. But always remember the cardinal rule of critiquing: Be quick to trust your critiquers when they tell you what isn't working. Be slow to trust them when they tell you how to fix it.
When I say that I'm not talking about simple grammar or rules fixes, I'm talking about things involving the overall structure of what you're putting together -- that's something that only you will have the perspective to fix, because only you have the full vision of the product.
In the end, the most important critic is yourself. Put in all the work, get all the feedback, edit the crap out of it. But at the end of the day it is your name going on it, so you should make sure that the final product is true to what you wanted to say.
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Include a non-gamer in your circle. Gamers have a short hand that can create gaps on the page. A non-gamer is more likely to catch these. Plus they tend to catch the silly things. A gamer sees animal companion, the non-gamer sees a snake, making the armor you think is the bees knees a major disconnect.
One biggie review circle tip I haven't seen (may have missed)...
Ask your review circle for honesty, even if it hurts.
If your reviewer is a friend saying something nice to encourage you, although its nice and encouraging, is that what you really need?
Nope, it's not.
But, if they tell you your phrasing stinks, that you don't know how to capitalize and italicize, tell you that price is out by 100k and that rule there is from d20 4th ed, and that phrase is from Traveller The New Era, and that that magic spell doesn't exist in the PRD, and that god/land is from the original world of Greyhawk, or that your design already exists in such an such system - then that's a helpful reviewer.
Oh yeah, and at least one of your pit crew should be a lore-master, someone who's read all the novels, web fiction, companions and setting materials - because even if you haven't used lore this round, by god you will need to in subsequent rounds.
To those I've PMed with, thanks for your help. This community is awesome as always.
If any of you need me to take another comment pass let me know.
A pit crew is essential to the survival of the competition.
I say this having been on four different Top32 pit crews, and as an experienced freelancer.
-Ben.
Hey folks.
For another writing contest, I found this web-site particularly useful.
Mostly because I like numbers, and this website gives a REALLY good count of everything used in your body of text.
https://wordcounter.net/
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Rusty Ironpants
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wordcounter.net
Linkified. :)
Also when you submit your entry be sure to hit preview first and it will provide a word count. this is the official one that will be used to DQ you if you go over the allowed word count.