Killing a smart dragon


Advice


Hey guys, I was wondering what tactics will allow people to take down an adult or older green dragon that plays smart.

This isn't an adventure, its a backstory myth, so, how would you face a green dragon with an entire ancient (bronze age) elven kingdom to kill it?

Obviously the dragon doesn't have to land, and arrows vs breath weapon is like scissors vs rock. Possibly the elves could sneak into its cave and hide? Kill it when it lands, but then if the dragon was smart (and they are pretty smart) it would just run out, wait outside for them to starve and breath weapon them when they come out...

One of the elves can have divine protection of some sort that helps, but I'm not sure what.


Lure it into a cave maybe? Dragons are smart, but they're also proud and greedy. A baited trap might be the way to go.


Good idea. Maybe I could make it HAVE to fight in the cave because it wants to defend its eggs or its treasure or something?

Also, the elves would only have wood and stone weapons, but the dragon has a lair full of treasure, including magical weapons, so I like the idea of one of the heroes grabbing a weapon off the floor and using it to slay the dragon.

Grand Lodge

Golarion, or homebrew setting?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Golarion, or homebrew setting?

Homebrew, but fairly standard.


Just because a creature is smart doesn't mean he/she can't make mistakes or that is doesn't have a personality or skills(or lack thereof) or goals.

Also, what levels are the elves?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Bows have much more range (especially with Far Shot) than a breath weapon. If the elves are spread out and concentrate on shooting arrows (from cover/concealment, probably), they have a good chance of doing significant damage before the dragon can do the same to all of them (assuming the elves are "elite" troops; i.e., 5th-6th level in PC classes, or possibly a bit higher, and have appropriate equipment/magical support); 16 NPC elves with 6 levels in PC classes is around CR 13 (which may not be enough to definitely kill an adult green dragon, but should be able to drive it off).

As others have stated, restricting the dragon's mobility (confined spaces, spells like entangle/web/black tentacles/etc., or possibly even large nets in conjunction with a covered pit) will make things easier.


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You could take inspiration from nineteenth century whalers, Moby Dick style. Use harpoons attached to rope or chains to limit the dragon's mobility and tie it down. It might well not work in the Pathfinder ruleset but does seem thematic.


I recommend an item of immense monetary or magical value. Greed, Vanity, and Pride are a Dragon's biggest weaknesses.

Set a trap where you can guarantee the dragon can't gain the advantage of flight, from there try something that could drain levels or Con quickly. That's the fastest way to slay them.

Grand Lodge

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Ok recruits, listen up, all dragons are smart. How they live and fight depends on how feral they are. But every one you fight should be approached with respect and preparation.

First order of business is to get resist energy going to reduce the effectiveness of the breath weapon. It also helps to flank a dragon so it catches the least amount of people in the breath weapon.

Next you take this thing here. *he shows a magical sword to the class* This here is a sword. Very easy to use. Pointy end goes into the dragon. *you hear a lot of ooos and ahhs* The better the weapon the better your chances. A dragon bane weapon is the best of course.

Next this is a bow. *he holds up a long bow* when the big bastard is not in reach of your sword...shoot him with a bow. *a few hushed remarks of genius* remember like your sword good arrows are needed.

Armor will be important but not over the weapons. As a dragon will hit and his claws shred armor. It's just best to kill him before he kills you.

Ok Recruits that ends our lesson.


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Feed your warriors lots of ingested poison with a long onset time when they go to fight it. That way, if they end up getting eaten, they'll help kill the beast regardless. Every dose of poison ups the DC by 2, so just load it up.

If the battle goes well, supply purgatives.


In the dark, get a Seeking Distance harpoon ballista with a Gunslinger (Bolt Ace)/Slayer (Sniper) with the appropriate range feats. You'll need to be more than 120 feet away from the dragon, so it can't see you. Then you get this guy, or maybe multiple of him, to shoot against the dragon's touch AC and hopefully get a free grapple on him. Then you have them drag him down into sword range, where their (hopefully) magical weapons can beat his DR/magic. That is a not entirely unrealistic way to down a dragon.

Scarab Sages

Now if the dragon had Antimagic Field and you have no gunslinger...


Cao Phen wrote:
Now if the dragon had Antimagic Field and you have no gunslinger...

Then you hold a fireworks party every single night until you drive it off or kill it with sparkly flaming awesome.


I like how Barbra Hambly did it in _Dragonsbane_. Poison a heavy barbed iron lance, wait over the entrance of the cave until the dragon sticks its head out, and jump on it from above. Praying helps.


lure him into his cave and just collapse the entrances... either lock him in... or on top of him... even a older dragon will require time to dig itself back out... though this might now work If he has spells that would let him walk through walls or blast things away... then you run into the ecology of a dragon... how long can they survive without a source of air? food? water? ect ect...


When I was in Montana last month I learned about Wolf Lichen. They would stuff a dead sheep with it, and when wolves ate it they would die. Think it would work if you stuffed a cow, and left it near the mouth of a dragon cave?


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I understand the usual technique used by kingdoms is to offer admission to the royal family to whichever adventurers survive killing the dragon. It may not be efficient in terms of adventurers since one might go through thousands before some manage to slay the dragon but for the kingdom it is very efficient, no actual expenditure to slay the dragon (the adventurers become part of the royal family and if the adventurers have any wealth of their own it gets added into the kingdom's wealth) and potential out-breeding with proven superior stock. As an added bonus, from the kingdom's point of view, it is also a good way to cull the murder-hobo population which is (even when not slaying villages of goblin subjects) quite disruptive with all their trying to sleep with every mildly attractive citizen, starting bar-fights, conspiring with priests and so forth.


Perhaps the dragon has a weakness (e.g. Smaug) - the Elves could 'big up' their ability to exploit this and make the dragon wary.

Then perhaps the dragon takes precautions against the elven threat, and/or tests the elven defences. Either way both sides will learn from this and develop further countermeasures. And so the game goes on, with both sides wary of a full confrontation (loss of life inevitable) and so they wage war indirectly, mostly through clients and minions...

Sound familiar? That's the cold war, it will consume them as it will only last as long as one side feels that they are unable to completely destroy the other one without taking unacceptable damage themselves.

M.A.D.


You've got a whole bunch of archers, right? Gather up the best and use grappling arrows to drag it down and tie it up, or at least tangle it in all the rope. For the hooks to catch on you've got 6 limbs with claws, a head with jaws and horns, and a tail with spikes or the like, all covered in various sizes of scales. Would work especially well if the ropes were fastened to the ground or something heavy before loosing the arrows.

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Elves get +2 vs. SR, right? Train a bunch to cast magic missile at him.

Or scatter a TON of archers all over the woods near his lair. Is there a tribal spellcaster that can enchant some arrows?

Maybe just a cult of dedicated dragonslayers that can provide archer inquisitors using bane?


josh hill 935 wrote:

Hey guys, I was wondering what tactics will allow people to take down an adult or older green dragon that plays smart.

This isn't an adventure, its a backstory myth, so, how would you face a green dragon with an entire ancient (bronze age) elven kingdom to kill it?

If it's a myth you're all going from the wrong angle. It's not a PvP arena, it's a myth/story.

Also an adult green is only CR 12. So solution is simple. High level elven heroes.

Archetypal protagonists brainstorming:
elven archer/ranger for woodcraft
elven cavalier (or paladin?) griffon rider or eagle rider with longspear/lance ?
elven mage
elven trickster (bard?)
elven druid
must include a unicorn

Trope brainstorming:
- dragon is a trickster (shapechanger?)
- dragon demands tribute
- dragon kidnaps maiden
- hero party forms
- must track dragon
- there's a traitor in the party
- someone must sacrifice themself
- love prevails
- dragon is vain and greedy
- dragon is tricked somehow

For the true story I would cast the dragon as one of the part members in disguise. But this would not be in the publicly available version of the myth. Only hints of it. Also myths can be contradicting and muddled. Have several versions.

Also read up on Hero's Journey a.k.a. monomyth.

Though I kind of struggle imagining a bronze age elven society. Elves always had this advanced ,etallurgy and society/culture though in harmony with nature vibe, even for ancient times.

See also this thread for ideas about clever green dragon encounters

Liberty's Edge

Not so much kill it, but my wizard once made great use of the scroll of Limited Wish/Geas combo to force a particularly tough dragon to fly to Osirion and count every grain of sand in the Western desert.

It only flew away for a few days of course but by then we had looted it's horde, cleared the dungeon and were well on our merry way.

(Yes, I'm sure there is some way to subvert that clause and get out of it, but it was so funny the GM just ran with it without trying to think of a way around it)


So when did the dragon come back and why/how did he not hunt and kill your party gruesomely in their sleep?


what if all of the fire breathing heated up the atmosphere to such a point, that it started a storm and the dragon was struck by lightning?

Liberty's Edge

I forget exactly how long it took now, I think it was away for 22 days (11 days under the compulsion and then 11 days flying back).

It was in a really remote area - not like we were staying in a village close by, I mean. So after we were done we teleported back to our main base of operations some 600+ miles away. No doubt it could track us down with divination magic and so on, and who knows maybe some day it will.


More importantly, why did it only take him a few days?

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
More importantly, why did it only take him a few days?

Simply due to the duration of the Geas. Counting all those grains of sand seemed like a task that would be "open-ended... that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions" so the duration becomes one day per level instead of 'until discharged.'


josh hill 935 wrote:

Hey guys, I was wondering what tactics will allow people to take down an adult or older green dragon that plays smart.

This isn't an adventure, its a backstory myth, so, how would you face a green dragon with an entire ancient (bronze age) elven kingdom to kill it?

Obviously the dragon doesn't have to land, and arrows vs breath weapon is like scissors vs rock. Possibly the elves could sneak into its cave and hide? Kill it when it lands, but then if the dragon was smart (and they are pretty smart) it would just run out, wait outside for them to starve and breath weapon them when they come out...

One of the elves can have divine protection of some sort that helps, but I'm not sure what.

One thing to remember for really smart creatures is that yes, while they are smart, and often geniuses, there are a couple of things about genius:

A: being a genius at one or a couple of things does not make you a genius at all things. Just because that dragon is a genius doesn't mean that he's a tactical genius - or doesn't mean that he's a tactical genius at fighting little humanoids - perhaps he's a genius at fighting other dragons and the topic of puny little humanoids attacking him hasn't come up often enough for it to be worth him thinking about.

Another thing about extreme intelligence is that, and this is especially true for dragons, it is often paired with extreme arrogance - and extreme arrogance often includes missing small details and presuming your opponents are more stupid than they are 'those puny, dull short-lived mortals aren't smart enough to think of that. Why would I need to bother putting time into defending against it? I can defeat them with half my brain tied behind my back." Geniuses can have a tendency to over-complicate their plans relying on weirdly contrived complex plans with many moving parts which are subject to the vagaries of Murphy's law ..."

Geniuses can often have their special brand of idiocy.


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How big is the dragon's ego? If it's incredibly proud of itself, that can be used to gain an advantage against it.

Dang it, RDM managed to ninja me regarding that. But yes, if the dragon is an arrogant one, then it might fall due to underestimating the party.


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Dennis L. McKiernan wrote a bunch of books taking place in the "present" his fantasy world. In many of them, characters occasionally talked about the legendary time when a man killed a dragon. I think in his world it only ever happened one time. Prince Elgo killed the dragon Sleeth. Everybody knew about it but nobody knew how.

It was part of the backstory "history" of his fantasy world.

Then he finally wrote a book about it called Dragondoom. It it, we finally learn how Elgo slew Sleeth. I admit, it was a bit of a letdown. Not that the book was bad, but because I had read so many of his novels where Elgo slaying Sleeth was an ancient legend, spoken in awe, steeped in mystery - when the author finally pulled back the curtain and revealed the mystery, it took some of the cool factor away from the legend.

Long story short, your ancient dragon slaying might be better if it remains spoken in awe and steeped in mystery.

Don't pull back the curtain.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Richard K. Morgan's A Land Fit For Heroes series has a character they call Dragonbane because he killed a dragon. Which kind of peeves some of his friends, because they also helped kill the dragon. :-P

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