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Ok so I love the flavor and feel of the Swashbuckler, Daring Champion, Learned Duelist, and even the Duelist PrC but I don't know if any of those really makes a character who is all that great when it comes down to being a sort of Jack Sparrow meets Zorro style character.
I want to build a character who is a devil with a blade, skilled and capable of doing a good deal of damage but also being able to be charming, stylish and not invest every player resource into being able to poke a fool with the pointy end of his sword.
Any ideas in general? I actually liked Learned Duelist, and I wish I could just merge Swashbuckler and Learned Duelist into one character class because they would be pretty effective. I know I could gestalt but really if I was in a gestalt game I couldn't take those two and be anywhere near as effective as anyone else. That is doubling down on one gimmick and really killing yourself overall.
I thought of maybe suggesting Learned Duelist as a Swashbuckler VMC build, it has five class features and could be sprinkled into the class effectively
What is the dealbreaker for you on the Swashbuckler?
Can't speak for the OP but the poor fort and charmed life are two big downsides. No twf is another or at least no carrying a decent shield.
It is that a little bit, but I do not mind using Swashbuckler but you hear all the time how it is not very good at actually being the swashbuckler style.
For something Jack-Sparrow-ish, use one or four levels of Oracle with one of the mysteries that let you use charisma instead of dexterity for AC. Cross it with strength-based Learned Duelist(&-Mutation Warrior if you want to be optimized) on a Dual Talent Human with both strength and charisma bumped up at the expense of dex. You can dodge and strike with the best of them even though you can't seem to walk in a straight line. You can take the Amateur Swashbuckler feat for swordplay and you can take Noble Scion of War if you want to crank up initiative. For interesting out-of-combat powers, the Lore mystery lets you do things like base knowledge checks off of charisma or go into a trance and suddenly somehow come up with tons of information.
Something like:
Oracle of Lore 4/ Learned Duelist X
Dual Talent Human; 16/18, 7, 12, 12, 10, 16/18
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack.
1(LD). Noble Scion: of War (or just Improved Initiative)
2(OL). *Haunted Curse* / *Revelation: Sidestep Secret* / (Divine Favor for +2/+2, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound...)
3(LD). +Amateur Swashbuckler / Toughness
4(LD).
5(LD). Extra Revelation: Focused Trance / +Power Attack ("Two-hand" your rapier if you like while attacking)
6(LD). *Weapon Training: Light Blades +1* (+Gloves of Dueling...)
7(OL). Cornugon Smash
8(OL).*Revelation: Lore Keeper*
9(OL). Divine Protection (massive saves.)/ (Divine Favor is now +3/+3, Levitate, Minor Image, Instrument of Agony...)
Along with using charisma to dodge attacks and swordplay to confound foes, you're a peculiar font of knowledge, you've got a solid self-buff spell even though you can hit perfectly well without it, you've got loads of charisma and a bunch of fun (or nasty) trick-magic, and your saves are Paladinesque.
No matter what it is gonna cost you somthing if you want social skills. But generally speaking any of the classes you name can do it, just fine. And so can a bard.
A dip into monk(2 levels of moms pehaps)will help the saves and can give a few extra feats and on a swashbuckler you wont really feel the loss of bab since they are already very precise.
Good suggestions, I normally do not like to Multiclass to much but that would work a good deal. Divine Protection works but requires a domain not just a 2nd level divine spellcasting ability. I don't think Oracles get Domains unless I am missing something.
Bards are Iconic for the Swashbuckling drunkard sword slinger. My favorite gestalt is Daring Champion//Bard for that reason.
MoMS Monk is fun, love Pummeling Style.
I heard Sacred Fist works well too because of Crusader's flurry allowing a flurry with a rapier or something?
Good suggestions, I normally do not like to Multiclass to much but that would work a good deal. Divine Protection works but requires a domain not just a 2nd level divine spellcasting ability. I don't think Oracles get Domains unless I am missing something.
Bards are Iconic for the Swashbuckling drunkard sword slinger. My favorite gestalt is Daring Champion//Bard for that reason.
MoMS Monk is fun, love Pummeling Style.
I heard Sacred Fist works well too because of Crusader's flurry allowing a flurry with a rapier or something?
Divine protection need domain, blessing or mystery so oracle is fine.
And moms monk is not the Best for pummeling style unless you have flurry from brawler or sacred Fist. IMOP.
Sorry I was going off memory I didnt look it up.
Also the idea I had for the VMC using the Learned Duelist as a VMC would give the class features 20 levels behind when the Fighter would get them, I think that is fair.
I've been playing around with VMC Archetypes...
Learned Duelist is an easy one to set up... I'd suggest switching out bravery at 3rd level for duelist stance (at level -2), then at 11th trade weapon training for duelist training (obviously), and at 19th precise thrust instead of weapon training 2...
Apart from that- daring champion does good damage with very little investment thanks to being able to stack challenge and precise strike. Order of the flame is good for that thematically and mechanically. Grab a decent Cha and you can 'face' without much investment (since those are class skills and you get 4+int ranks), plus more panache for doubling precise strike.
Swashbuckler does not have Bravery that is a Fighter ability. Weapon Training is also Fighter.
Learned Duelist is a Fighter Archetype already.
I was thinking to have Duelist Stance at level 3, Duelist Training at 7th, Precise Thrust at 11th, Science of the Blade 15th, and Surgical Strike at 19th level.
Now my trouble would be, do I adjust those class features further off their new level granted, or just treat it as if always had it. So for Duelist Stance at level 3 has a +1 but at level 5 goes to +2 Dodge Bonus.
Because stacking the Duelist Training and Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Rapier Training) would grant a +12 to Hit and +13 to Dmg at level 17/19.
you misunderstand me... when i said "VMC Archetypes" I didn't mean archetypes that did basically the same thing as variant multiclassing, I meant archetyped versions of VMC (so when you took VMC Fighter you could chose the learned duelist version, or the lore warden version, or the two-handed fighter version, etc).
you're VMC does not look very well balanced to me. The typical VMC intentionally limits you to lower level abilities (caps at weapon training 2 and armor training 2) but you're giving away higher level/power abilities. That's not great design, specifically because it has clear balance issues.
following the standard VMC rules you'd gain:
3- Duelist Stance at level -2
7- armor training 1
11- Duelist Training at level -4
15- armor training 2
19- Precise Thrust
that's a more balanced approach that maintains the flavor of the archetype without altering its power level too dramatically. plus, its more consistent with the design behind other VMCs.
Also, duelist training is a version of weapon training and, as such, shouldn't/wouldn't stack with the swashbuckler's weapon training... (describing redundant abilities and parent classes, the ACG says "Such abilities don't stack unless specified.")
I thought due to that one FAQ that swashbuckler weapon training doesn't count as weapon training for things like dueling gloves. So it only counts when its a detriment?
I Think nate is in the homebrew forum?
@Laughing man- I'm not sure which FAQ you're talking about... If you could post it that really might make a difference. As I read it without any FAQ swashbucklers should be able to benefit from dueling gloves but not stack their training with a fighter; if there's an FAQ that takes away dueling gloves it may very well (inadvertently) allow the abilities to stack.
@Cap.- no, I usually avoid the homebrew threads (partly out of fear that I'll spend way too much time there, and partly because I get frustrated when people post stuff that's really poorly done or seems to have no real concept of game balance). Is there a thread there on VMC Archetypes?
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
I know which one he mentioned ^.
Now sure if that means they could stack or not. And yes I do agree my method is not as well balanced. But its also far more in line with the main class. Where as the VMC can give a fighter domains and such with its boat load of feats, if it granted higher more powerful abilities then everyone would be more inclined to pick Fighter for the feats and exploit it.
Ok, I have seen that FAQ- I thought maybe there was another one that more clearly addressed this... Based on this FAQ, duelist training definitely counts as weapon training, the only question is whether or not swashbuckler weapon training constitutes a redundant ability from the parent class... I would certainly rule that it does (same name, same numeric progression, same levels, etc), but a particularly liberal GM (who likes high powered games) might allow it.
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Dread Prince:
There's been a lot of esoteric talk in this thread. Honestly the only sane thing ice heard is using the Swashbuckler with Twist Away.
Really, you shouldn't discard the Swashbuckler from what you hear without looking at the chassis of the class first.
Swashbuckler makes for a great Swashbuckler. Don't VMC, don't screw around for Divine Protection... All you need is Twist Away, a Ring of Ferocious Action, Steadfast Personality and the Irrepressible trait (which stacks with Steadfast Personality because that's an Insight Bonus). Irrepressible doesn't stack with Charmed Life, but the point here is saving you the Swift Action.
Pick a good crit weapon and get your Dex-to-damage feat and you'll be OP enough.
That honestly does cover the big glaring weaknesses of the Swashbuckler.
The other good option is full Unchained Rogue, Swashbuckler archetype with Scout thrown in. You'll probably want the same load out with Twist Away and Irrepressible and such, but the Rogue allows you to safely dump intelligence and still have more than enough skill points (don't dump Strength, you want the CMD).
Get the feats on the Circling Mongoose featline and use an Estoc in 2H for 1.5x Dexterity to damage. With Circling Mongoose, you can ensure a sneak attack whenever you full attack. With the Scout archetype and Spring Attack (a prereq of Circling Mongoose) you can ensure a sneak attack anytime you move into an enemy.
It works, but it has less HP and accuracy than the Swashbuckler class, in exchange for more skill points (even with 7 INT!), better class skills and a small bump on damage.
It also has a very swashbuckler feel to it.
Learned Duelist is a good option. If you keep a 10 on Dexterity and take Artful Dodge, you can take the Student of War PrC at level 6 for two levels to replace Dexterity for Intelligence to AC... Thankfully, the Learned Duelist has Medium Armour proficiency so you are not that vulnerable early on.
Otherwise a normal build works. Get an Estoc and Vital Strike away. Avoid Weapon z Finesse in this case.
Twist Away has a prereq of Evasion, so a Rogue can pick this up easy but Swashbuckler doesn't qualify till 11th level. That is pretty late into the game without a dip.
Btw Swashbuckler is one of the few classes who can VMC because you gain Bonus feats that equally replace the ones you lost. So you trade out 5 but you still have 5 bonus feats.
But I will take this under advisement.
As far as Swashbuckler Training counting, it does not stack due to the wording. It does not say that is a more precise version of Weapon Training. If it said something like
"At 5th level, a swashbuckler must choose the light blades weapon group, she then gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level)."
But without mention of a weapon group I have to say that it is not a weapon training, so it does stack.
Stack with what? All untyped bonuses from non-attribute sources stack.
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.
The conversation (which you appear not to have read) was around whether weapon training and swashbuckler's weapon training constitute redundant abilities. If they do then this specific rule overrides the general rule on stacking (in accordance with how general and specific rules work in pathfinder).
Weapon Training is different from Swashbuckler's Weapon Training (Their names are similar and so are their effects, but not identical so they are not redundant)
Weapon Training from a Fighter stacks with Weapon Training from a Myrmidarch Magus. Why wouldn't it stack with another different feature?
It is that a little bit, but I do not mind using Swashbuckler but you hear all the time how it is not very good at actually being the swashbuckler style.
I wouldn't take word of mouth as a dealbreaker. Despite people saying the swashbuckler is the worst class in the ACG, I've seen more swashbucklers than any other class from the ACG in PFS.
I kind of figured, my favorite gestalt is the Daring Champion//Bard due to my love of the Bard class but I love the added swashbuckling style it gives. But as a base class I didn't know. I really wish they had just given Divine Protection as a class feature or something instead of Charmed Life because well, its a poorly designed feature.
With a normal build (that is, with good CON and Great Fortitude and Iron Will), you'll be wildly effective as well.
Over optimisation is a vice here.
I probably will use Swashbuckler, I do like the Learned Duelist Archetype for his additional flavor and gimmick but that is just added cool.
I kind of figured, my favorite gestalt is the Daring Champion//Bard due to my love of the Bard class but I love the added swashbuckling style it gives. But as a base class I didn't know. I really wish they had just given Divine Protection as a class feature or something instead of Charmed Life because well, its a poorly designed feature.
If Charmed Life had been a free action, it would have been balanced. That's honestly the only issue.
I think Charmed Life should have let you do it as a non-action and let you use it after you rolled the save but before the results are determined. Many similar abilities work that way. I never understood why they made it the way they did.
I probably will use Swashbuckler, I do like the Learned Duelist Archetype for his additional flavor and gimmick but that is just added cool.
The Inspired Blade is a good archetype. If swashbuckler doesn't work out, try taking a level in other things, like slayer. The swashbuckler is a very dippable class. I've seen many take levels in swashbuckler and slayer. Studying targets fits the duelist type of character really well.
Indeed it does, but Precise Strike which is kind of the corner stone of the class only works with Swashbuckler Levels.
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If I may; You want to be a terror when fighting and a bit of a clever know it all as a duelist of some sort. I have some ideas;
1. Swashbuckler- St10 Dx18 Co10 In13 Ws10 Ca15 (+2 on Dex)
Feats: Slashing grace. Traits: Signature moves, Reactionary.
Why?
a. Dex to damage is a priority.
b. Sig-moves gives you a MW weapon (+1 to hit) to start with and when you flaunt your stuff, you get a bonus to bluff and intimidate.
c. Reactionary, +2 initiative.
d. Follow up feats: Combat feats, darn well nearly anything.
Option 2. Humans only.
If you really want to go for the extreme Know-it-all like "Fleming, Ian Fleming" try these feats; Fast learner, improvisation, and improved improvisation. These give you an effective +4 (+stats and other modifiers) on every skill that you have NO skill ranks in and *EVERY* skill can be used un-trained.
To optimize this idea: St14, Dx14, Co10, In13, Ws14, Ca14. How did I do this? 20 point build wise you went 14,14,14,12,10,10. Applied your +2 to the 12 score, and changing a 10 to 13 with the remainder. As you only need 13 int for combat expertise. Well, this gives you a minimum TAKE 10 and meeting or beating DC 15...
On E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G
For those few skills that you want to be REALLY good at, invest your skill ranks.
I wanted to play a duelist too, but Mundane moogle friends just can't compare to finger wagglers. I am experimenting with ideas with;
A. Human-Magus-Kensai, Aldori dueling mastery at 3rd...
B. Elf-Magus-Spelldancer.
A. because having an insane unarmored AC, unreal initiative, Critical threat and Critical confirm... (Mr. Burns, really slowly saying "Excellent"). As an added plus, if you are stripped of all your gear (*bonekeep, etc.) just lean back on "spell Mastery" which has been okayed for Magus use, the spell "Instant weapon" and you will never be crippled by a vindictive D.M.
B. because Fly-1 round, free- is chock full of all kinds of awesome.
A really high Clif or castle wall? Fly.
Sinking in quicksand? FLY.
Absurdly difficult terrain? FLY.
(Maybe) Paralyzed? FLY.
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If multiclassing...
Swashbuckler 1/ Paladin 2 could make a great baseline "charismatic" fighter.
Couple different paths from here
1) Finish Swashbuckler.
2) Aldori dueling sword. Go Fighter 2 With the Swordlord Archetype. Take the Aldori Swordlord Prestigue class. Advance from here as you see fit.
3) Duelist Prestigue class.
Indeed it does, but Precise Strike which is kind of the corner stone of the class only works with Swashbuckler Levels.
Precise Strike is only 1/level non-crit damage though, so dropping a couple of levels isn't a big deal - particularly if those levels bring in better damage themselves.
For example, dropping four Swashbuckler levels for four levels of Sacred Fist of Cayden Cailean with Magical Knack can get you a swift-action +3/+3 Divine Favor, a hefty will save boost, Blessed Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike if you want to pick up Crane Style for a counterattack that stacks with your riposte, some Blessing use, and best of all Flurry of Blows and Channel Energy - which lets you flurry a rapier with Crusader's Flurry(!). A rapier-flurrying, self-buffing, double-riposting Sacred Fist 4/ Swashbuckler X "Rapier Saint" is going to beat most single-class rapier-master types handily.
Wouldn't Flurrying with a rapier at 4 levels of the monk be +2/+2 but that is all he would ever get for flurrying he cannot add extra attacks onto the flurry or did I misread something.
Wouldn't Flurrying with a rapier at 4 levels of the monk be +2/+2 but that is all he would ever get for flurrying he cannot add extra attacks onto the flurry or did I misread something.
Four levels of Sacred First with the Magical Knack and Fate's Favored traits makes Divine Favor a +3/+3, since it's CL6 and then +1 to luck bonuses. The fact that it's a swift action makes it almost as good as an inherent buff.
You're correct that Flurry of Blows rapier will never have more than one extra attack; considering what having one extra attack on a full attack is worth for a martial character, that's still incredibly good. You don't even pay the normal strength penalty for flurry, since you're one-handed dexterity weapon.