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Indeed it does, but Precise Strike which is kind of the corner stone of the class only works with Swashbuckler Levels.

I probably will use Swashbuckler, I do like the Learned Duelist Archetype for his additional flavor and gimmick but that is just added cool.

I kind of figured, my favorite gestalt is the Daring Champion//Bard due to my love of the Bard class but I love the added swashbuckling style it gives. But as a base class I didn't know. I really wish they had just given Divine Protection as a class feature or something instead of Charmed Life because well, its a poorly designed feature.

Weapon Training is different from Swashbuckler's Weapon Training (Their names are similar and so are their effects, but not identical so they are not redundant)

Twist Away has a prereq of Evasion, so a Rogue can pick this up easy but Swashbuckler doesn't qualify till 11th level. That is pretty late into the game without a dip.

Btw Swashbuckler is one of the few classes who can VMC because you gain Bonus feats that equally replace the ones you lost. So you trade out 5 but you still have 5 bonus feats.

But I will take this under advisement.

As far as Swashbuckler Training counting, it does not stack due to the wording. It does not say that is a more precise version of Weapon Training. If it said something like
"At 5th level, a swashbuckler must choose the light blades weapon group, she then gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level)."

But without mention of a weapon group I have to say that it is not a weapon training, so it does stack.

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

I know which one he mentioned ^.

Now sure if that means they could stack or not. And yes I do agree my method is not as well balanced. But its also far more in line with the main class. Where as the VMC can give a fighter domains and such with its boat load of feats, if it granted higher more powerful abilities then everyone would be more inclined to pick Fighter for the feats and exploit it.

Swashbuckler does not have Bravery that is a Fighter ability. Weapon Training is also Fighter.

Learned Duelist is a Fighter Archetype already.

I was thinking to have Duelist Stance at level 3, Duelist Training at 7th, Precise Thrust at 11th, Science of the Blade 15th, and Surgical Strike at 19th level.

Now my trouble would be, do I adjust those class features further off their new level granted, or just treat it as if always had it. So for Duelist Stance at level 3 has a +1 but at level 5 goes to +2 Dodge Bonus.

Because stacking the Duelist Training and Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Rapier Training) would grant a +12 to Hit and +13 to Dmg at level 17/19.

Sorry I was going off memory I didnt look it up.

Also the idea I had for the VMC using the Learned Duelist as a VMC would give the class features 20 levels behind when the Fighter would get them, I think that is fair.

Good suggestions, I normally do not like to Multiclass to much but that would work a good deal. Divine Protection works but requires a domain not just a 2nd level divine spellcasting ability. I don't think Oracles get Domains unless I am missing something.

Bards are Iconic for the Swashbuckling drunkard sword slinger. My favorite gestalt is Daring Champion//Bard for that reason.

MoMS Monk is fun, love Pummeling Style.

I heard Sacred Fist works well too because of Crusader's flurry allowing a flurry with a rapier or something?

It is that a little bit, but I do not mind using Swashbuckler but you hear all the time how it is not very good at actually being the swashbuckler style.

Ok so I love the flavor and feel of the Swashbuckler, Daring Champion, Learned Duelist, and even the Duelist PrC but I don't know if any of those really makes a character who is all that great when it comes down to being a sort of Jack Sparrow meets Zorro style character.

I want to build a character who is a devil with a blade, skilled and capable of doing a good deal of damage but also being able to be charming, stylish and not invest every player resource into being able to poke a fool with the pointy end of his sword.

Any ideas in general? I actually liked Learned Duelist, and I wish I could just merge Swashbuckler and Learned Duelist into one character class because they would be pretty effective. I know I could gestalt but really if I was in a gestalt game I couldn't take those two and be anywhere near as effective as anyone else. That is doubling down on one gimmick and really killing yourself overall.

I thought of maybe suggesting Learned Duelist as a Swashbuckler VMC build, it has five class features and could be sprinkled into the class effectively

Sacred Fist would be better both mechanically and flavor wise.

Dotted for interests.

Yes but it forces them to eat a two level penalty and gives exactly the flavor the guy wants and well this is a monster PC.

Hmm isn't there a bard simple template?

I agree according to the arg 20 and under has no level adjustment. So 19 would make it superior but just high end of thst . Like Kasatha is 20 and have no level. Though I would have tried specing it more like the arg centaur giving it high points to knock it a level back.

I do have to ask why reduce it to only one +2 over the flexible ability?

I looked intk the savage species book and the half bard level is in the monster class list of features. So i get where its from. Beastery does not have it though.

Here is how i do it. We roll our stats and then we decide on the best array for the game. Typically this means a choice of the highest array. But the whole group shares

The leprachaun is a bit much with its sla that give it a tone of prowess as a manipulator but a cr 2 sounds right

Overall i would but only with their cr being rolled into level. So unless the game starts at 2 or three they cant play. 3gives them cr 2/x1 because being delayed by two levels is a hinder. As well as their likely smaller hd.

Shield Champion Brawler//Paladin. Maybe even holy gun to get the gun and the ability to smite via the gun. But straight pally works too.

Crypt of the Everflame is a level 1 Module, that leads into two more that end with the third at roughly level 5. Most insane ideas only come online roughly around level 5.

The best way to fight in the setting is with divine casters, if you mean the situation of close quarters and enclosed spaces. A pet is useful, but it has to be small enough to move through the areas without trouble. Using it as a scout is a wonderful idea. Someone using a Tower Shield with his buddy behind him with precise shot and a bow is even better as it allows them to move through the spaces holding back attacks and allowing the archer to hit foes behind the shield.

Indeed they are. Adding full str to offhand unarmed strikes make them one of the best unarmed fighters.

Let him reselect his known spells, let him readjust his gear if he bought items to allow specific focus on the mind controlling aspects. Add in a few more human encounters, especially people with key intel so that when he gets them to talk its even more awesome for him.

Oh I could make an unbeatable character using gestalt, but I would rather use it to flesh out a character and give it complimenting powers and abilities that make sense. For Example a Swashbuckler//Bard fits a theme very well, as Bards and Swashs use the rapier as their iconic weapon. Its hardly optimal though.

I see, that is quite messy. I thought there was a feat for that. To use Str

Well when you can make four attacks a turn at level 1 and beyond its powerful. Now imagine a Kukri crit fishing build on top of a Kasatha with the Butterfly Sting feat. That is a walking talking blender who can freely hand out crits like an old man with a dish of hard candy.

Quick Question: Thrown weapons to hit and damage is based off Str right?

I just prefer Gestalts, and rarely go into cheese or insanity levels. Often just want to hit all good saves, decent skills and so forth.

And it is theorycrafting for now. But it doesn't mean it might not see play someday.

After re-reading the Magic Item Compendium and after seeing the Gloves of Endless Javelins I decided I wanted to build a character who uses this exclusively.

Since my games are almost always gestalt I was thinking Warpriest//Ranger focusing on the thrown weapon aspect and using his javelin as his deity weapon. Kurgess has Javelin as a weapon.

Half-Giant is good because it increases Str and Wis, and gives your Javelin's a 1d8 instead of 1d6.

As far as I can tell Kasatha can use four rapiers at once making four attacks at -2 to all. You still cannot add more then one hand to the rapier and cannot get 1-1/2 str.

On the CR side?

I suppose I should have said what I wanted from the class, sorry long day double shift and very very sleepy.

This guy obviously is suppose to be a tank hulking character but also quite good with combat, I honestly considered a bow character. Since with PBM you take no negs for 1000 GP your composite bow adjusts to your score.

But the iconic idea of a shield and weapon fighter still appears to me, but you can't really make the best use of that massive str or con.

Btw for caster options, I do have access to Lost Tradition.

I am playing a character in a gestalt game soon. And because it is a Gestalt game I decided I wanted to have a bit of fun with it and take a character with some CR on one side.

Because we are using PR rules we are using the creatures CR adjustment rather then any RHD or LA from past books. So I decided on Stonechild, whos name is Basalt the Rocksteady.

Stonechild has a lot of perks
Least of which is immunity to Acid and Poison
+4 to Natural Armor
+8 to Str and Con, +2 Int, with a -2 to Cha
Blind-Fight is a bonus feat
Magic Stone 3/day.
All Simple and Martial Weapons; Light and Medium Armor and Shields (Not Tower shields)

Now the CR is 3 for Stonechild and our game is going to be a Level 5 game.

So CR 3/Class 2//Class 5 is how it will work out.

I was considering taking a bit of the Fist of The Forest which would make use of the high Con.
I was thinking taking Fighter on the CR side to give him the two bonus feats to help him take that class.

The Dread Prince wrote:

Btw with flurry with Power Attack, at level one that makes it -2/-2 at level 1 right?

It is your normal attack bonus (BAB+STR+FEATS+ENHANCEMENT+ETC) then -3 / -3 (-1 for power attack, -2 for flurry).

So if you had a 10 STR, and no feats or other bonuses and your BAB was +1, then yes, it would be -2 / -2.

Yeah thats what i presumed. Alright i was just curious because the feat said nothing. Thanks all.

Alright so I saw in an older thread that someone mentioned that yes you get the 3/1 from PA but you don't gain anything more then your strength damage even to a two handed being wielded by both hands.

Why is this?
If my God's favored weapon is a Greatsword, or Greataxe and I flurry with it, why would I not add Str x1.5 to damage on top of the Power Attack damage.

Btw with flurry with Power Attack, at level one that makes it -2/-2 at level 1 right?

Isn't the hooded champion archetype a mix of swash and ranger? It is a ranger archetype. Some say its not too good i have never used it.