Upgrading Belt of Giant's Strength into Belt of Physical Might

[Deighton Thrane]

So, I was just looking for the next few magical items I should be getting for my level 11 fighter, and was thinking I should probably just upgrade his Belt of Giants Strength into a Belt of Physical Might, because I knew you could do this, but figured I should find the rule that specifically states you can do so if the GM wants to see before okaying the purchase. So looking back through the Guide to Organized Play, and the Pathfinder Society FAQ, but neither seem to implicitly state that you can do this, if anything it seems to state that you can only upgrade a belt or headband to a higher bonus of the same stat (well technically you can't upgrade a belt or headband at all because you have to use the rules on page 19 of the guide, but page 19 has no rules for upgrading equipment).

So, I know that it's been stated numerous times that you can do this:

SKR said it, though he points out he's not a PFS guy.

Mark Moreland said it.

Kyle Baird made a mini FAQ, where he says it works, and Mike Brock seems to corroborate further down the forum.

Nefreet update the FAQ last summer, in which it still says it works.

But the FAQ reads:

Pathfinder Society FAQ wrote:

Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?

Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Upgraded versions of named magic items may appear on Chronicle sheets.

Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or are provided as part of a class or archetype (such as the black blade magus archetype).

That seems to read to me like you can only upgrade a belt or headband to a higher bonus for whichever ability it currently improves. So, am I missing something here, or am I misreading this FAQ? It's the same FAQ that's been around since 2011, before the statements that say you can upgrade a belt or headband to include a second/third stat.

So basically, can I still upgrade a Belt of Giants Strength into a Belt of Physical Might? And if so, what am I getting wrong here?

[Pirate Rob]

Mark Moreland's post was made while he was the campaign coordinator for PFS.

[Nefreet]

I don't consider a Belt of Giant Strength (or the Belt of Physical Might) to be a named item. It's a Wondrous Item with a numerical bonus. If you couldn't upgrade the belt, you could likewise never upgrade a Cloak of Resistance or an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

A named item (to me) would be something like Gamin the Misforged, or Celestial Armor, or Frost Brand.

[FLite]

Basically, the posts expand on and clarify the FAQ, and thus are valid PFS rulings.

Yes, you can do it.

[Sarvei taeno]

as far as i knew you could only increase the bonus not change it to a different item.

For ease of play, a masterwork item can always be
upgraded to a +1 item without paying for the masterwork
cost again. Instead, you pay the difference between the cost
of the +1 item and that of the masterwork item. This rule
also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to a +2 item and so
on—you never have to repay the original cost or sell your
current item for half to upgrade to the next step. Note that
this only applies to items of the same kind—you can’t, for
example, turn your masterwork rapier into a +1 greatsword.

pg 23 gtop

[Nefreet]

Check out the links above.

Upgrading headbands and belts is the exception to the general rule.

[Sarvei taeno]

that makes no sense to me as they are 2 different magic items, and the guide says you cant yet a random post makes it legal they need to faq this then cause it contradicts the guide. I see were posts make it so 4 yrs ago yet the gtop does not and unless every player starts looking for 4yr old posts when they are told all they need is gtop not message boards their characters are being penalized.

[Tsriel]

Named items usually are extraordinary in nature, meaning that it can do something not normally found in the world. While an item that enhances your physical or cognitive abilities does sound extraordinary, its quite a common item in Golarion. Pathfinders never seem to be in short supply of them.

Edit: While I can understand the level of frustration about how updates on PFS are delivered, it's simply easier and much more cost effective to encourage participants of the campaign to come and be aware of the community and these forums. It's a common thing with all organized campaigns, not just PFS.

[Nefreet]

Sarvei taeno wrote:

that makes no sense to me as they are 2 different magic items, and the guide says you cant yet a random post makes it legal they need to faq this then cause it contradicts the guide. I see were posts make it so 4 yrs ago yet the gtop does not and unless every player starts looking for 4yr old posts when they are told all they need is gtop not message boards their characters are being penalized.

It's the first post of a Sticky at the top of the forum titled "How to upgrade your gear". That's hardly a "random post".

We're also trying to shorten the Guide. Including several pages on upgrading magic items, when a thread specifically geared towards that already exists, seems counter intuitive.

[Yuri Sarreth]

Nefreet wrote:

Sarvei taeno wrote:

that makes no sense to me as they are 2 different magic items, and the guide says you cant yet a random post makes it legal they need to faq this then cause it contradicts the guide. I see were posts make it so 4 yrs ago yet the gtop does not and unless every player starts looking for 4yr old posts when they are told all they need is gtop not message boards their characters are being penalized.

It's the first post of a Sticky at the top of the forum titled "How to upgrade your gear". That's hardly a "random post".

We're also trying to shorten the Guide. Including several pages on upgrading magic items, when a thread specifically geared towards that already exists, seems counter intuitive.

I feel this is a mistake. You should not be trying to shorten the Guide, it should be expanded to include all the new rulings as it is the official rules for PFS play. Part of the core assumption of what every player should have and read to play. Also as I have seen on these boards the same questions asked repeatedly and everyone then pointing to posts here that apply and reminding them to read the Guide.

If there has been an 'official' ruling it should be included in the Guide or all collected into one place on the boards and a mention in the Guide to go to that place and these rulings also apply.

[Nefreet]

Baby steps.

For potential new members, a shortened Guide is easiest to swallow. Reading that gets them through the door to their first game and into the presence of more experienced players.

No new player is going to be looking to upgrade their +2 Int Headband into a +2 Int/+2 Wis Headband. By the time that happens they'll have had the chance to learn about the FAQ and the forums.

But telling a PNM "Hey, go read this 70 page document before your first game" would kill growth.

[Nefreet]

Now, could the "How To Upgrade Your Gear In PFS" thread use an update?

Totally.

569 comments is a lot to wade through to find the specific answer you're looking for.

That's why I proposed this update last summer. I formatted the original thread a bit and added more questions.

Now that another year has gone by, we could probably even use another update. But I would never ask that it be incorporated into the Guide.

[Yuri Sarreth]

Nefreet wrote:

Baby steps.

For potential new members, a shortened Guide is easiest to swallow. Reading that gets them through the door to their first game and into the presence of more experienced players.

No new player is going to be looking to upgrade their +2 Int Headband into a +2 Int/+2 Wis Headband. By the time that happens they'll have had the chance to learn about the FAQ and the forums.

But telling a PNM "Hey, go read this 70 page document before your first game" would kill growth.

Then I would suggest a 'beginners box' version of the guide for this situation referring to a full guide later where all these rulings have been made and are 'official' then. My point being that if these rulings aren't referenced in the latest version of the guide book or pointed to a FAQ withing said guide I can see a case being made that they aren't 'official'.

Maybe its me but I found reading the guide to be no more of a chore then reading the 560+ page core book. Granted I am a long time player and most of it was known to be me. And just needed the basics of PFS changes.

[Nefreet]

The Guide is that "Beginner's Box". In reading it you then learn about 1) The Additional Resources page, 2) The FAQ, and 3) The Forums (and that posts by Campaign Leadership are binding).

Creating two Guides would be redundant, since that extra information is already available and referenced in the current Guide.

[Nefreet]

And, the reason why the "How to Upgrade your Gear" thread isn't an FAQ is because FAQs can't be commented on.

If someone has a question about the FAQ, they'd have to create a brand new thread about it. Plus, I hear that editing FAQs is a nightmare for the techs.

Having one thread where questions can be asked and answered really is the most practical solution.

[Yuri Sarreth]

Nefreet wrote:

And, the reason why the "How to Upgrade your Gear" thread isn't an FAQ is because FAQs can't be commented on.

If someone has a question about the FAQ, they'd have to create a brand new thread about it. Plus, I hear that editing FAQs is a nightmare for the techs.

Having one thread where questions can be asked and answered really is the most practical solution.

Ah you are correct sir. Those are mentioned in the guide. My apologies, as I had forgotten or overlooked them.

And as you pointed out they could be updated and in all honesty I dont think it would hurt to have a sticky thread there where all the posts made by the 'Powers That Be' could be referenced so it is easier for anyone with questions to search to see if it has been mentioned before.

Much like this thread started and links were given to a handful of posts if they were all in one maybe it would be noticed and read before they needed to ask..

Anyway thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Nefreet]

Funny you should mention that.

A couple years ago, such a thread existed, and was Stickied.

Those quotes formed the backbone of the FAQ we have today ;-)

[Sarvei taeno]

My issue is that we are requiring people to have regular forum access to play a table top game. If we are suppose to have rules from the net enforced then they should be on a downloadable link like additional resources is. Most my lodge flat out refuses to read the forums for their verious reasons.

[Nefreet]

You're here.

Just print the first post of the Upgrade thread (or the first page of my update linked above; it covers a couple more things)

Don't think of it as "the forums", think of it as a living FAQ.

And you're going to need Internet access to read the FAQ, anyways.