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It's better than the non-unchained rogue sneak attack because it applies to concealment without a feat, it can apply against total concealment with a talent, and it is much better at sniping than sneak attack.
Overall though, it's not better by a large enough margin to justify the two sets of damage dice.
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One of the things that I've noticed so far about Hidden strike is that I can reliably get it once a round: Stealth or no stealth, flank or no flank, using up close and personal:
Up Close and Personal (Ex): When the stalker vigilante
attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent’s
space during a move action, he can make a single melee
attack against that opponent as a swift action. This attack
applies the stalker vigilante’s hidden strike damage as if the
foe was unaware of the stalker vigilante. A stalker vigilante
must be at least 4th level to choose this talent.
emphasis mine.
Far as I can tell, no other class that gets Sneak attack has an option like that. Every round, I get to attempt to tumble through your square, and punch you, whether or not my attempt succeeds or fails. Add in Mighty Ambush (granted, not til the halfway point), and I get a decent chance at knocking you out, before using my standard action to cast a spell, move away whistling non-chalantly or to hit you again (or if I could find an option to so as a standard action, to Coup-de-Grace you).
the more I read the stalker, the more I like how it's talents are focused at attacking people from surprise and from directions they don't see coming (even in our modern world, you'd be surprised how many people don't look up).
The stalkers issue isn't that their talents aren't good, nor that they do 1 Damage less per hidden strike dice compared to SA. Their issue is much the same as the pre-unchained rogue, they lack ways of hitting more reliably.
SA or hidden strike, neither do competitive damage unless you can full attack and get their bonus AND hit with those attacks and do so consistently.
I'm not sure why after bandaiding the rogue, they went behind right after that and ignored what they learned when designing it.
Edit: A friend of mine mentioned giving them Debilitating Strike available after lvl 6 ad a talent, that would go a long way to helping them.
except that they get a talent that gives them a bonus to hit people who are denied their dex to them. that means that even at (theoretically) level 3, they can swing a +3 bonus to hit in a flank.
except that they get a talent that gives them a bonus to hit people who are denied their dex to them. that means that even at (theoretically) level 3, they can swing a +3 bonus to hit in a flank.
Oh wow you're right, except everyone gets that +2. How about this, at lvl 4 a rogue swings at +6 in a flank.
I'd rather it just be called Sneak Attack, deal 1d4 all the time, and have the Unchained ruling on Sneak Attack - it's got the versatility of the Unchained Rogue, but it doesn't step on its toes because it's a muted version of the same ability.
Instead, it could just add a flat +X damage whenever the Stalker deals Sneak Attack damage, where X is one half the Stalker's Level (+1 at lv2, +2 at lv4, etc.)
Average damage is the same as the Rogue, minimum damage is twice as much as the Rogue (minimum +20 damage at lv20, vs +10 damage as a lv20 Rogue), but a lower maximum (+50 damage at lv20, vs +60 damage as a lv20 Rogue).
Though maybe it should just be +1 at lv1, +2 at lv5, and an additional +1 every 5th level thereafter.
10d4+10 is much stronger than 10d6 though, for reasons you noted, 20-50 is a much better range than 10-60.
10d4+5 though is interesting however.
Oh wow you're right, except everyone gets that +2. How about this, at lvl 4 a rogue swings at +6 in a flank.
only if the have nothing geared towards hitting, a stat of 12, and a non masterwork weapon.
To put it in perspective, a level 4 weaponmaster Fighter with a 20 strength, a +1 weapon, and weapon focus will have a +12 to hit, +14 with a flank.
A Rogue with a 20 dex, weapon finesse, weapon focus and a +1 weapon will have +10 to hit, +12 with a flank.
A Vigilante with a 20 dex, weapon finesse, surprise strike, weapon focus and a +1 weapon will have +10 to hit, +13 in a flank.
For S&G, a Barbarian attacking without powerattacking while raging with a 24 strength (20 base, +4 for rage), a +1 weapon, and weapon focus has a +13 to hit, 15 with flank.
No, because as soon as the rogue hits he puts on debilitating injury and gets +4 to hit that the stalker does not get. The rogue has substantially more to hit bonus than the stalker, and it scales with level to always eclipse them.
The problem with taking that debilitating injury is, at level 4, you can't make use of it (since the benefit goes away at the start of your turn, and you only get one attack a round). A straight rogue has to be 8th level before he can take advantage of the disoriented debilitating injury (other than if the target provokes an attack of op, that is).
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The problem with taking that debilitating injury is, at level 4, you can't make use of it (since the benefit goes away at the start of your turn, and you only get one attack a round). A straight rogue has to be 8th level before he can take advantage of the disoriented debilitating injury (other than if the target provokes an attack of op, that is).
Or have a natural attack. A bite is easily obtainable via half orc, kitsune, tengu, or a ring of rat fangs.
true, you could have a natural attack, but then you're looking at a -5 penalty to hit, or a net -1 from the stalker vigilante (including the debilitating injury).
true, you could have a natural attack, but then you're looking at a -5 penalty to hit, or a net -1 from the stalker vigilante (including the debilitating injury).
Multiattack is a thing, so that -5 drops to a -2. there's also two weapon fighting to also gain two attacks.
That would be true, but multiattack requires 3 natural attacks, which only (I believe) the tengu is capable of (and would most likely not have a +1 weapon in). Such a tengu would then have:
20 dex + weapon finesse + multiattack + (if he were to sink almost all of his money into it) amulet of might fists + Weapon Focus + debilitating injury on his secondary attack (his claws) for a total of +10/8/8 or +12/10/10 targeting someone who's ac would be 4 lower for his claws (this is an effecting bonus to hit of 14 for his claws, or 1 higher than the stalker).
All of that for a -1 penalty on the setup attack over a stalker vigilante.
Man, -1 to hit for 2 more attacks and more damage because d6 vs d4.
Unchained rogue has far more to hit, they have it at lvl 4, they have it at lvl 7, they have it at lvl 10, lvl 11, lvl 14, lvl 17, lvl 20.
After level 4, the stalker loses hand over fist to hitting vs the rogue, and do less damage with their dice. They have some neat talents, talents the rogue probably should have, that's it.
And this isn't even proclaiming the rogue is great at hitting! Even with its changes its still bad at hitting compared to other classes.
Edit: Like, I picked rogue. I could have been rude and compared it to Investigator.
Tengu, tiefling, ratfolk, catfolk, changeling and skinwalker at first level can have 3 natural attacks. Only ratfolk needs a feat to do so. So there are options.
And if you make a non-hand attack, it's 3 natural attacks. Make it unarmed and it's enchanted from the amulet. 4 hidden strikes/sneak attack possibilities is pretty nice and any hit improves the rest of the strikes.
Tengu, tiefling, ratfolk, catfolk, changeling and skinwalker at first level can have 3 natural attacks. Only ratfolk needs a feat to do so. So there are options.
And if you make a non-hand attack, it's 3 natural attacks. Make it unarmed and it's enchanted from the amulet. 4 hidden strikes/sneak attack possibilities is pretty nice and any hit improves the rest of the strikes.
Claw, Claw, Bite, Kick, Kick is available at lvl 3.
1)Weapon Finesse
1)TWF
2)Combat Trick / Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3) Multi-Attack
Do Damage.
Well except that the question was for a level 4 character and they don't have enough feats to pull that off until 7. Can't be human and tengu etc.
.......Except rogues just get weapon finesse.
((Humans don't get claws and bites))Tengu, tiefling, ratfolk, catfolk, changeling and skinwalker at first level can have 3 natural attacks. Only ratfolk needs a feat to do so. So there are options.
And if you make a non-hand attack, it's 3 natural attacks. Make it unarmed and it's enchanted from the amulet. 4 hidden strikes/sneak attack possibilities is pretty nice and any hit improves the rest of the strikes.
Claw, Claw, Bite, Kick, Kick is available at lvl 3.
1)Weapon Finesse
1)TWF
2)Combat Trick / Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3) Multi-AttackDo Damage.
All rogues get weapon finesse.
Take TWF at level 1.
Use combat trick to take IAS at level 2.
Get multi-attack at 3.
This shouldn't be hard to understand.
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I'm wondering if we'll get an UNCHAINED AVENGER down the road... perhaps this is the strategy behind this initial Avenger? or is Paizo holding back something real cool for the final version...
I hope it's the latter, because I don't put a lot of faith in the playtest period anymore. As Paizo grows bigger, so does their internal bureaucracy. When you have a lot of staff invested in a given project, it's almost impossible to invalidate all the man hours behind the draft version of a new class and just do a complete re-do, unless they see some genius tidbits on the boards and run with it.
I will put a disclaimer here that I absolutely hate classes that are really a bunch of classes put together, like the Oracle. This one has never sat with me right. For some reason I have no problem with the Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer, despite the fact that they specialize in different domains, schools or bloodlines. But the Oracle... it splits you towards various different toolboxes (i.e. Mystery), and I think I hate it because each Oracle is basically unique (i.e. two Life Oracles can be built completely differently). As a GM that's absolutely annoying, and when I see an NPC statblock with Oracle at the top, I have to constantly refer to the APG to remember what each Revelation does.
At least with the rogue and (now unchained) monk, you have ONE class path for all, sprinkled with various talents. So when I see a rogue stat, and don't know what the various talents are, I'm one step away from figuring them out. With the Oracle or Vigilante, I'm two steps away (1. figure out which Mystery/Specialization and what they do; 2. figure out the Revelations/Talents)
I'm wondering if we'll get an UNCHAINED AVENGER down the road...
...
Uhg, I hope not.
Unchained classes are basically Paizo saying "Look, we screwed up with these classes. Here, we will give you a new version that isn't as broken". That's why we got the monk, rogue and summoner unchained (and the barbarian, because...reasons?). If the avenger ends up getting unchained or some equivalent, that means we will be stuck with several years of a crappy specialization/class before Paizo gets around to fixing it in an optional supplement.
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I'm wondering if we'll get an UNCHAINED AVENGER down the road...
...Uhg, I hope not.
Unchained classes are basically Paizo saying "Look, we screwed up with these classes. Here, we will give you a new version that isn't as broken". That's why we got the monk, rogue and summoner unchained (and the barbarian, because...reasons?). If the avenger ends up getting unchained or some equivalent, that means we will be stuck with several years of a crappy specialization/class before Paizo gets around to fixing it in an optional supplement.
I don't think it's Paizo saying "we screwed up," but I think it's Paizo recognizing Power Creep is a thing. And I actually admire them for doing a revised rogue, barbarian, summoner and monk. I'll take books that revise or add to the Core classes anytime over books that add classes, cause you end up with spell descriptions like this, for once:
"Cure Light Wounds
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 1, bard 1, cleric/oracle 1, druid 1, inquisitor 1, paladin 1, ranger 2, witch 1"
What would be truly devious of them would be to make an initially weak Vigilante with pre-planned UNCHAINED version down the road... but you know, I don't think their alignment has moved south of the neutral axis yet... ;)
Claw, Claw, Bite, Kick, Kick is available at lvl 3.1)Weapon Finesse
1)TWF
2)Combat Trick / Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3) Multi-AttackDo Damage.
Except that all of your attacks are at -2 (all natural attacks for being secondary weapons, your unarmed attacks for two weapon fighting). Meanwhile, the stalker is getting two attacks a round at full bonus (which in my example above would be +13).
Your two-weapon fighting natural attack character would have 20 dex + weapon finesse + Amulet of Mighty Fists - Two-Weapon Fighting/Secondary Attacks, for +7/7/7/7/7 to hit, or +9/9/9/9/9 in a flank, with the last for attacks targeting someone with an ac 4 lower.
To put the rogue bonus to hit in perspective, let's take a look at the same characters I posted above at 20th level (all of whom are still super focused on hitting).
The 20th level fighter will have 30 str + Greater Weapon Focus + Weapon Mastery + a +5 Weapon + Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone would have 44/39/34/29 to hit, +46/41/36/31 with a flank.
The 20th level Rogue will have a 30 dex, weapon finesse, weapon focus, a +5 weapon, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone will have +32/27/22 to hit, +34/29/24 with a flank, with the last two attacks targeting someone with who's AC is reduced by 8.
A Vigilante with a 30 dex, weapon finesse, surprise strike, weapon focus, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, and a +5 weapon will have +32/27/22 to hit, +37/32/27 in a flank.
For S&G, a Barbarian attacking without power attacking while raging with a 38 strength (30 base, +8 for rage), a +5 weapon, the Accurate Stance rage power, and weapon focus has a +46/41/36/31 to hit, +48/43/38/33 with flank.
I don't know how many times we need to go over you being wrong here?
Stalker gets two attacks at +13?
The rogue gets 5, at 10/14/11/11/11.
I wonder who wins. The answer is eluding me. It seems like it's obvious, but it's just not clicking, I don't know what's wrong with me.
I would love to see your math, because I posted mine. And yes, the stalker gets 2 attacks at +13: one for his standard action, and one for using up close and personal (which is a swift action).
I used your very own math...
If the stalker has 13 to hit, the rogue has 12.
5 stat + 3 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 1 aomf + 2 flank = 12 - 2 twf = 10.
On hit, debilitating injury.
Next attack is at 14.
Then the natural attacks which take an additional - 2 from multi attack and another - 1 from lacking weapon focus. 11/11/11.
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I don't think it's Paizo saying "we screwed up," but I think it's Paizo recognizing Power Creep is a thing.I'm wondering if we'll get an UNCHAINED AVENGER down the road...
...Uhg, I hope not.
Unchained classes are basically Paizo saying "Look, we screwed up with these classes. Here, we will give you a new version that isn't as broken". That's why we got the monk, rogue and summoner unchained (and the barbarian, because...reasons?). If the avenger ends up getting unchained or some equivalent, that means we will be stuck with several years of a crappy specialization/class before Paizo gets around to fixing it in an optional supplement.
Not really, when the Unchained Barbarian and Summoner were both nerfed compared to the Chained versions.
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To be honest, I'd like to look at whether the class would balance with d8/d4 hidden strikes instead d6/d4 it currently has. When the vigilante gets the drop on someone, they are even better than rogues. After that, they just don't sustain.
The downside is that the stalker is already dependent on that initial burst and then falls off. d8 hidden strike damage in that first round would be embracing that burstiness and making them even deadlier in that initial onslaught.
If you were looking to embrace their Burst potential, than going d8 from d6 isn't a very large increase, as opposed to as someone mentioned 1/2 level to damage on each hidden strike.
While I think that's too strong all the time, for when your opponent is suffering from startling appearance, I like it.
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If you were looking to embrace their Burst potential, than going d8 from d6 isn't a very large increase, as opposed to as someone mentioned 1/2 level to damage on each hidden strike.
While I think that's too strong all the time, for when your opponent is suffering from startling appearance, I like it.
So essentially the Surprise Attack unchained rogue talent baked into the class yes?
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, a rogue with this ability always considers opponents flat-footed, even if they have already acted. A rogue with this ability adds 1/2 her rogue level to her sneak attack damage rolls made during the surprise round.
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Yeah just slap it into Startling Appearance.
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This is the burst we are talking about. You get your one shot to take down the enemy with the d6, before it drops to d4 because everyone is aware of you. It's why I'm suggesting d8 instead of d6 might be a consideration. I'm not married to the concept by any means, but it's something to consider, and I hadn't seen that direction mentioned.
I see two general directions the design team could take things with the Stalker
1) Make the Stalker less burst dependent and more sustainable.
2) Just roll with it and give even more burst power to the stalker.
I'm assuming they will go with #1, but it's just a gut feeling. Nothing has really been said one way or the other. Really looking forward to how all the feedback gets applied though.
I used your very own math...
If the stalker has 13 to hit, the rogue has 12.
5 stat + 3 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 1 aomf + 2 flank = 12 - 2 twf = 10.
On hit, debilitating injury.
Next attack is at 14.
Then the natural attacks which take an additional - 2 from multi attack and another - 1 from lacking weapon focus. 11/11/11.
Except that you can't have weapon focus with this build, as you don't have feat slots for it, thus +9 to hit with flank, +7 without it for all of your attacks. Additionally, while it is effectively the same, your attack bonus doesn't change with debilitating injury: the target is taking a penalty to AC. if you miss with your first attack (and facing things with 20+ ac at level is not unheard of or uncommon, meaning that you have less than even odds), your secondary attacks are not benefitting from it until you hit (hence why you shouldn't calculate it as an attack bonus).
Of course all of this assumes that the creature we're attacking can be effected by precision damage. Since almost 50% of your attack bonus is coming from sneak attacking, depending on what you're facing you could be a decent hitter or practically worthless.
Setting that aside, however, even fighting a 5th level core barbarian would seriously hamper either character, as my bonus to hit would drop to +10, and yours would be +7 (for each of your five attacks). The difference would be that in this scenario, I would still be doing my 2d6 extra damage from hidden strike, and you would not be getting any sneak attack.
Except that you can't have weapon focus with this build, as you don't have feat slots for itI used your very own math...
If the stalker has 13 to hit, the rogue has 12.
5 stat + 3 BAB + 1 weapon focus + 1 aomf + 2 flank = 12 - 2 twf = 10.
On hit, debilitating injury.
Next attack is at 14.
Then the natural attacks which take an additional - 2 from multi attack and another - 1 from lacking weapon focus. 11/11/11.
If you don't understand a class, then you really shouldn't try to argue against it. Rogues do have weapon focus at that level.
I'm hoping this is the right place for this.
Is it really the intention to have hidden strikes full damage basically proc once per combat encounter.It states when the enemy is not aware of you, and as per the rules for the errataed slayer sniper archtype (Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”) the moment you hit an enemy they are aware of you and will be for the rest of combat.
If that's the case are other people in this thread aware of this. I know I initially wasn't aware of this and thought it catered more to a hit and run style of jumping in and out of the shadows, as opposed to a one hit wonder.
Go back and read up close and personal. With that talent, you get to hidden strike as if the target were unaware of you.
If you don't understand a class, then you really shouldn't try to argue against it. Rogues do have weapon focus at that level.
Interesting. I looked at the feat list you posted, and I didn't see Weapon Focus anywhere on there:
1)Weapon Finesse
1)TWF
2)Combat Trick / Ninja Trick (Improved Unarmed Strike)
3) Multi-Attack
I also understand the rogue just fine. I'm not arguing one way or the other, I'm just pointing out that your statement that
Unchained rogue has far more to hit, they have it at lvl 4, they have it at lvl 7, they have it at lvl 10, lvl 11, lvl 14, lvl 17, lvl 20.
is not a correct one, as it's based on the assumption that you will be able to sneak attack things, which as we both know is not always the case. It's also based on the predication that you hit with your primary attack, which is not always the case.
You brought up 13 to hit, that's a level four character, go look at the math I provided to back up my numbers, it's a level four character, guess what that means?
In the cases where a rogue can't sneak attack things, they have much larger problems than being - 1 to hit compared to a stalker.
It's also a ridiculous argument. I'll compare myself to your weakest point, how about I compare rogue to stalker when he is in social mode. As both can happen, and I'll base my argument off of that. No, obviously you don't.
And let me reiterate again, rogue is awful at hitting. Terrible at it. They're still better at it than Stalker. An investigator would be beating Stalker by several points of to hit. Having atleast +3 over them even at lvl 4. That gets WAY worse as they level up.
If you would like to compare your rogue multi attacker bonus to hit (btw, even with a perfect scenario in which you are flanking with your 5 attacks and swing at +10 with your first one (because presumably you took combat trick at level 4 to learn weapon focus), you're still at a lower bonus to hit than the stalker (which is at +13).
Even if you compare your build to the stalker in social form, you still have a lower bonus to hit than my stalker, who is at +12 in a flank, as opposed to +10. I would lose one of my two attacks, however.
You keep saying that the rogue is better at to hit than a stalker, but looking at the numbers, I don't see the evidence.
You must also fail to see why Rapid Shot or Multi Shot are amazing too then.
We're not talking about more attacks, we're talking about bonus to hit. Rapid and multi shot both negatively impact bonus to hit. Thus, they're hurtful to a attack accuracy, not helpful.