The Action Men — PFS Party Playtest

[Alexander Augunas]

Tomorrow my friends and I are going to begin our Vigilante Playtest group that we're calling The Action Men, after an in-joke from our Carrion Crown game. The Action Men consists four vigilante characters (maybe five if I can get another person to opt in); we're also going to including one to two non-vigilante players to act as a control for our group. Between the four of us, we have:

Avenger (played by Venture Captain Josh Klingerman)
Stalker (played by Casey Croson)
Warlock (played by yours truly)
Zealot (played by Jtb)

Tonight, I've started building my vigilante for tomorrow's game, a kitsune vigilante called Bloodhound.

Bloodhound's Semi-Tragic Backstory:

His name is Cyril Takamine, a humble expedition manager for the Pathfinder Society who charts and oversees the courses that various agents will take in fulfilling their missions. Cyril took pride in the flawless execution of his plans until one day when a group of his Pathfinders never returned. After calling back to the Grand Lodge for help, the Society discovered that the band of Pathfinders were ambushed and murdered by a gang of Aspis Consortium agents. Although there was nothing he could have done, Cyril took the death of those agents who were under his care harshly and took upon the alter ego of Bloodhound, devoting himself to not only helping those agents placed under his care to succeed in their tasks, but also to make sure that they abided by credence of the Pathfinder Society and did nothing to tarnish its good name.

We're expecting to play three to four low-level games of Pathfinder Society for this playtest, and I'm going to be recording my thoughts here as I design my character. After we play, I'll open a new thread and link it here so you can see the exploits of the Action Men. I'm also going to try to get my fellow Action Men to post their thoughts here as well, but that depends on their schedules, not mine.

So, without further adieu, please stay tuned as I build my character, as I'll be posting them here in one big post below. Stay classy, Paizo Community!

[Alexander Augunas]

Building Bloodhound, Warlock Vigilante
— I don't get Intimidate as a class skill? That's weird; you'd think a class with a social identity would get all of the social skills baseline.

— It doesn't look like I can cast my spells while wearing Light Armor. That's disappointing. I think this is the only arcane spellcasting class with 6th level spells that can't cast in some kind of armor.

— 1st Level seems very poor for the vigilante. I have two 1st-level spells per day, four cantrips, dual identity, and a +20 bonus on Disguise checks to keep my two identities separate. My sorcerer had bloodline powers at this level. A bardic has a host of bardic performance. Magi have spell combat. I feel like I'm a neutered bard. Or maybe a neutered sorcerer; I'm not sure.

— Vigilantes aren't the first spellcasting class to have a tuned-down version of another class's spellcasting. What's weird to me is that the hunter and warpriest both have special clauses in their spellcasting that says, "Druid / Cleric spells of 7th level or higher aren't considered to be on the hunter / warpriest's spell list for the purpose of activating magic items. Vigilante doesn't say that. Does that mean those spells ARE on my spell list?

[Alexander Augunas]

— I really wish that there was a way that I could pick up track as a vigilante talent, although that seems really weak compared to several of the other talents available. Maybe having it freely upgrade to swift tracker too at a certain level?

[Jtb]

My zealot build is going slow. My talent is a choice between Track, Stern Gaze, A Domain, and Divine Bastion. Track and Stern Gaze are good for social games, and campaign games, but not great for the mostly battle to the death based combats in PFS. Divine Bastion is 1/2 level to CMD, and at level 5 it becomes a neat buff, but thats a long time in PFS (almost half the characters life) to have this buff, so why get it at level 1? I guess I'm going with a domain!

[Alexander Augunas]

Jtb wrote:

My zealot build is going slow. My talent is a choice between Track, Stern Gaze, A Domain, and Divine Bastion. Track and Stern Gaze are good for social games, and campaign games, but not great for the mostly battle to the death based combats in PFS. Divine Bastion is 1/2 level to CMD, and at level 5 it becomes a neat buff, but thats a long time in PFS (almost half the characters life) to have this buff, so why get it at level 1? I guess I'm going with a domain!

Actually ... you're not. You don't get a talent until Level 2. We only get our basic ability (for you, its spellcasting), dual identity, and social identity at 1st level.

[Alexander Augunas]

Honestly, that's a HUGE problem with this class; dual identity and social identity seem to be totally overvalued. Even though that split nature is the point of the class, they don't add to your overall playstyle.

Interestingly enough, I have more 1st-level spells per day than a wizard would with my Intelligence (I have a 16, for a total of three 1st-level per day where a wizard would have 2). That said, I feel like dual identity and social identity are extremely overvalued for what they do. They're essentially passive quality of life abilities. Its like having Endurance or detect evil. If this class is missing something, its missing the ability to actually do something cool at 1st level.

Bards can perform. Magi can use their arcane pools and spell combat. I think that giving vigilantes their first talent at 1st level (sort of like how witches get a talent at 1st level) would go a long way towards giving this class more of an identity. Either that, or give each specialization a second 1st-level ability that is use-oriented.

Also, waiting until 4th level for mystic bolt is going to be TORTURE.

[Jtb]

Well, I thought it was level one. Zealot has like, no sizzle at first level. I guess the sizzle is divine training one. This class seems good for home campaigns, but in PFS where 11/12 is your high tier, =/. LEts hope "The Azlanti's" first mission isn't his last.

[Trekkie90909]

On the plus hand you have martial weapon proficiency. It's a little bland for the casters, but it does give you a little more oomph/options than a standard wizard/magus. The zealot's just going to feel sad, you might want to switch over to the control group Jtb.

[Trekkie90909]

Oh; substitue for MB pre 4 -- acid splash using a flask of acid as an alchemical power focus component, havoc of the society (+1 force damage), and point blank shot. 1d3+2 acid +1 force dmg. Magical Lineage + Reach spell and it has medium range too as a cantrip.

[Jtb]

I need 2 really good spells for my 2 spells daily. Truestrike x2 go!

[Alexander Augunas]

So Jbt and I were just comparing classes, and there seems to be an odd case of mixmatched design between the warlock and the zealot's spells per day progression.

Currently, the warlock gets 2 spells per day each time he gets a new talent, plus an additional 2 when he gets the next training talent. This means that, for instance, at 4th level we're going to have the same number of 1st-level spells if we both pick our respective training talents, but as a warlock, I'm always going to have one more spell at the most current spell level than he will.

Or a bard will.

Or a magus will.

I'm guessing that the intent was for the warlock and the zealot to have one spell of their highest level at a time; basically, for the warlock to mirror the zealot. If that's the case, then the warlock REALLY needs something like another base ability or another talent at 1st level, because dual identity and social identity don't give anything for the vigilante to DO in a fight. Bards and magi and every other class give characters something to DO. (Spell combat, arcane pool, bardic performance, judgment, etc.)

[Alexander Augunas]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

On the plus hand you have martial weapon proficiency. It's a little bland for the casters, but it does give you a little more oomph/options than a standard wizard/magus. The zealot's just going to feel sad, you might want to switch over to the control group Jtb.

Since warlocks actually have more spells per day of their respective level(s) than a bard or magus would, I'm guessing that's a mistake and the spell progression should be more like that of the existing casters.

[Trekkie90909]

They're the same as the Arcanist, which is the parent class for their casting feature. I.e. the average between wizard and sorcerer.

[Alexander Augunas]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

They're the same as the Arcanist, which is the parent class for their casting feature. I.e. the average between wizard and sorcerer.

I understand that, but they shouldn't nab arcane spells per day progression for themselves. They should follow the precedent of the other 6-level spellcasting classes.

Especially if that means it'd open up the power budget to give the specialization something defining to it. Spellcasting is cool, but its not like the vigilante is doing anything unique or different at 1st level, when you could easily make the argument that all other classes in the game have something else that's cool or different about them. (I.E. maguses getting arcane pool or arcanists getting an exploit or swashbucklers getting deeds and swashbuckler's grace.)

The vigilante has NOTHING cool or unique that it does except for foil divinations, and that's something that's passive. Its not something that you actively DO. Especially because if you foil a divination with dual identity, you don't know that you actually did something. It would literally just be the GM saying, "Oh yeah, people are TOTALLY trying to scry on you and coming up with nothing. At least, that's what the rumors say."

Sounds cool, but isn't very fun.

[PIXIE DUST]

Also... how many first level parties are getting scry'd on on any regular basis... This is an ability you won't really see until like... level 5 or something.

[Jtb]

Thats what im seeing as im building, Vigilantes get cool later. In PFS, later is like end of life-span. In home PFS level 5 is a drop in the bucket, in PFS its like 1/3-1/2 of your characters playspan.

[Trekkie90909]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

So Jbt and I were just comparing classes, and there seems to be an odd case of mixmatched design between the warlock and the zealot's spells per day progression.

Currently, the warlock gets 2 spells per day each time he gets a new talent, plus an additional 2 when he gets the next training talent. This means that, for instance, at 4th level we're going to have the same number of 1st-level spells if we both pick our respective training talents, but as a warlock, I'm always going to have one more spell at the most current spell level than he will.

I think you missed something in the warlock spells per day description.

He starts with 2 first level spells per day. The only way to increase this is by taking further arcane training talents.

Further talents follow the formula +1 spell per day at the next level, +2 spells per day at the current level.

So for example if you took arcane training II at level four you would have 1 level 2 spell/day, and 4 level 4 spells/day which is one extra level 1 spell/day than the bard at level 4, but less than the bard from that point onward.

Zealot on the other hand starts with 1 level 1 spell per day. The only way for it to gain more spells per day is by taking divine training.

Divine training follows the progression +1 spell per day of the next level of spell (same as arcane training), and then +3 spells/day of the current level.

So at 4 if you both take the casting training you'll have the same number of spells/day. After that point the Zealot always has access to more of the current level, and the same number of the next level.

Both will have fewer per day than another 6 SL casting class past the minimum level at which you can pick the next tier of Arcane or Divine Training.

[Trekkie90909]

Or more plainly:

Adept Spell/day at 20:

3/3/3/3/1

Warlock Spell/day at 20:

4/3/3/3/3/1

Zealot Spell/day at 20:

4/4/4/4/4/1

Bard Spell/day at 20:

5/5/5/5/5/5

Inquisitor Spell/day at 20:

5/5/5/5/5/5

Magus Spell/day at 20:

5/5/5/5/5/5

Wizard Spell/day at 20:

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

Arcanist Spell/day at 20:

4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4

Sorc Spell/day at 20:

6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6

[PIXIE DUST]

That makes me a cry a little...

[Alexander Augunas]

As a warlock, why would I want a familiar? It doesn't have a dual identity, so any decently intelligent wizard could just scry on my familiar instead of me and figure out my identity.

[Trekkie90909]

I forgot to mention this earlier, but a wizard with an arcane bond gets an extra spell per day (of any level), and that one with a specialization gets a specialization spell slot per spell level they can cast (for a maximum of 3/day base at level 1).

As for familiars: they're useful. As for scrying the familiar: It's not your familiar while you're out of your vigilante identity so it probably won't be around to get scryed (this could be very bad if your familiar doesn't like you). Alternatively have it follow someone else around in public.

[PIXIE DUST]

One thing I noticed that REALLY bugged me...

WHY THE HELL DOES THE WARLOCK HAVE SHADOW JUMP??

I really feel like the Stalker should have gotten Shadow Form and Shadow Jump. Sure they are Su abilities but they thematically fit the stalker more. I hate how they knee cap the Avenger and Stalker because "mundanes must be deprived of any Su ability!!!" and Ex abilities are just usually not a strong as Su abilities because "MAGIC@!!!" If you gave the Stalker the Shadow Jump Ability, the Shadow Form Ability, and the ability from the Avenger that lets them move around a target without causing a AoO and maybe the Vital Strike ability would actually make the Stalker very good and give him the schtick of being a TRULY MOBILE COMBATANT!

[Manwolf]

PIXIE DUST wrote:

One thing I noticed that REALLY bugged me...

WHY THE HELL DOES THE WARLOCK HAVE SHADOW JUMP??

I really feel like the Stalker should have gotten Shadow Form and Shadow Jump. Sure they are Su abilities but they thematically fit the stalker more. I hate how they knee cap the Avenger and Stalker because "mundanes must be deprived of any Su ability!!!" and Ex abilities are just usually not a strong as Su abilities because "MAGIC@!!!" If you gave the Stalker the Shadow Jump Ability, the Shadow Form Ability, and the ability from the Avenger that lets them move around a target without causing a AoO and maybe the Vital Strike ability would actually make the Stalker very good and give him the schtick of being a TRULY MOBILE COMBATANT!

I support this, and why can't they be (Sp) for the vigilante instead of (Su)? That would fix the no (Su) for mundanes issue.

[PIXIE DUST]

Personally I think the abilities that Stalker should have gotten are:

Shadow Form
Shadow Jump
Unexpected Strike (I mean really??? This plays PERFECTLY into the whole Sneak attack thing...)
Vital Punishment
Close the Gap
Armor Skin
Armor Silence (why the bloody hell does the vigiFIGHTER have a stealth improving ability and the vigiROGUE doesn't?????)

Honestly, I think the Tattoo chamber should have been available to all Vigilantes. That ability is just awesome and thematic to all of them (Stalker just suddenly having throwing knifes conjured up so he can suddenly batarang everyone :P)

[Alexander Augunas]

Manwolf wrote:

PIXIE DUST wrote:

One thing I noticed that REALLY bugged me...

WHY THE HELL DOES THE WARLOCK HAVE SHADOW JUMP??

I really feel like the Stalker should have gotten Shadow Form and Shadow Jump. Sure they are Su abilities but they thematically fit the stalker more. I hate how they knee cap the Avenger and Stalker because "mundanes must be deprived of any Su ability!!!" and Ex abilities are just usually not a strong as Su abilities because "MAGIC@!!!" If you gave the Stalker the Shadow Jump Ability, the Shadow Form Ability, and the ability from the Avenger that lets them move around a target without causing a AoO and maybe the Vital Strike ability would actually make the Stalker very good and give him the schtick of being a TRULY MOBILE COMBATANT!

I support this, and why can't they be (Sp) for the vigilante instead of (Su)? That would fix the no (Su) for mundanes issue.

The warlock isn't a mundane, though.

[Alexander Augunas]

PIXIE DUST wrote:

Personally I think the abilities that Stalker should have gotten are:

Shadow Form
Shadow Jump
Unexpected Strike (I mean really??? This plays PERFECTLY into the whole Sneak attack thing...)
Vital Punishment
Close the Gap
Armor Skin
Armor Silence (why the bloody hell does the vigiFIGHTER have a stealth improving ability and the vigiROGUE doesn't?????)

Honestly, I think the Tattoo chamber should have been available to all Vigilantes. That ability is just awesome and thematic to all of them (Stalker just suddenly having throwing knifes conjured up so he can suddenly batarang everyone :P)

You're looking at the abilities outside of the theme of each specialization. The stalker doesn't get shadow form or shadow jump because those are magical abilities and the the stalker isn't a magical specialization. Jack the Ripper and Batman shouldn't have the ability to teleport through the shadows, where that's a very fitting power for Doctor Strange.

Likewise, armor skin is on the Avenger because that character's schtich is "big, heavy armored guy who gets people." Its like the punisher archetype. Again, barring the times that Batman has got into his robotic steam giant bust'em up Batsuit, that's not the type of ability that you expect to see a Batman style vigilante with.

[PIXIE DUST]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

PIXIE DUST wrote:

Personally I think the abilities that Stalker should have gotten are:

Shadow Form
Shadow Jump
Unexpected Strike (I mean really??? This plays PERFECTLY into the whole Sneak attack thing...)
Vital Punishment
Close the Gap
Armor Skin
Armor Silence (why the bloody hell does the vigiFIGHTER have a stealth improving ability and the vigiROGUE doesn't?????)

Honestly, I think the Tattoo chamber should have been available to all Vigilantes. That ability is just awesome and thematic to all of them (Stalker just suddenly having throwing knifes conjured up so he can suddenly batarang everyone :P)

You're looking at the abilities outside of the theme of each specialization. The stalker doesn't get shadow form or shadow jump because those are magical abilities and the the stalker isn't a magical specialization. Jack the Ripper and Batman shouldn't have the ability to teleport through the shadows, where that's a very fitting power for Doctor Strange.

Likewise, armor skin is on the Avenger because that character's schtich is "big, heavy armored guy who gets people." Its like the punisher archetype. Again, barring the times that Batman has got into his robotic steam giant bust'em up Batsuit, that's not the type of ability that you expect to see a Batman style vigilante with.

But going from the get go "Avenger and Stalker won't get magical abilities because they are mundanes" is simply knee capping them. Heck, even the ROGUE gets magical and near magical abilities. All this is will do just make the Warlock the best spec because he is an Arcane user (and low and behold? He IS the strongest spec right now). The fact for the Stalker is that he is the Vigilante Shadow. He is a stealth rogue. ALL of his abilities are focused on either Covert Actions or Improvements on Sneak Attack (well their version of it anyway). So an ability like Shadow Jump is not uncalled for for them. After all, a basic rogue qualifies for Shadow Dancer with no need to cast spells...

As for the Avenger thing, IT MAKES NO SENSE. WHY DOES HE GET A BONUS TO STEALTH??? And its not that he is in heavy armor. The bonus only applies to light and medium armor. So literally the Avenger is actually better than the Stalker at Stealthing in Armor... that just should not happen. Give the Avenger a Psuedo Armor Training? Sure, that fits and is thematic. But ability to STEALTH better in armor? That makes NO SENSE what so ever...

[PIXIE DUST]

Oh and Batman does not actually work in PF really... Most everyone has Basic WBL... Batman literally has an unlimited WBL. The only way to properly portray him is to give him pretty much ALL THE THINGS.

[Zwordsman]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

As a warlock, why would I want a familiar? It doesn't have a dual identity, so any decently intelligent wizard could just scry on my familiar instead of me and figure out my identity.

I wonder. Do familiars count as items for storiing purposes ? I.e. coudl a warlock stick his familiar in his tatto talent? it lets you use all the magic abilities of stored items so you'd still get all the bonuses. just have a tattoo of your familiar.

Whether or not you can. Shikigamis are great
Would work amazingly if you had the familiar Shikigami. They can invisible at will etc. So really he could always be on you just invisible. sure there are problems on occasion but better than one flyin around.

Though if one identity didn't have the right alignhment then i guess it would stop working in it?

[Jtb]

Today Thalamar Morsone met his match. Goblins, climb checks, and acrobatics checks. I'm really glad I had a lot of crossbow bolts, because otherwise my Zealot would have been combat useless. In our playtest, I'm the only one with access to healing spells, and with no wands your first go around, using your two first level spells for cure makes you feel not great.

My character has 12/16/10/13/10/16 abilities, so I'm using ranged weapons. I took Point-blank and Precise shot. I kind of viewed him as a merchant of a successful (not like billionaire) family, and he fights with a ranged weapon kinda like how old school green hornet just had a gun. Less hawkeye, more Aroden-worshipping Nite Owl.

When I made the character I just ended up looking at it and wondering "What should I be doing?" I couldn't find any talent which would make me want to stray to a build later on, and at level 1 I had the ability to cast 1 (+1 for Cha bonus) first level spells daily. I felt stuck between a magic class and martial class, and it didn't feel like a good mid-way like how Magus does. The first level feels empty.

When we did the adventure, Alex the Bloodhound decided to get changed when he heard a noise upstairs in an inn. I ran up in my social identity because I felt it properly dramatic. A chase scene transpired and I jumped out of a window and got stuck in a wall. My failings not withstanding Alex the Bloodhound was stuck in the room, taking off his belt, putting his chains in his jewelry box, folding his clothes and putting them on their hangers, etc, etc. The rest of the party and I eventually caught the bad guy after a chase scene, but Alex had to gather information around the inn to catch up with us later. Alex missed out on ~30 minutes of playtime because he wanted to be the strongest he could, that cast time for a combat buff is wack yo.

For the first transformation from one form to the other, a reduced time would make this PFS workable. In Pathfinder RPG, there may be less surprises and more time to properly dress, and encounters can be suited to these types of players in intrigue campaigns, but in PFS where most encounters signal an initiative roll, it just becomes an unusable hassle. As a side note to that, the fact you have a secret identity is important to the class, but in PFS where the only things that are bound by continuity are resources gained, negative levels, and drain. If some NPC finds my identity in PFS, it won't matter because the next scenario, the NPC's mind wont remember the last scenario. I do see at level 2, i get +4 to a mental skill, which can be useful for checks, but when im so combat hampered by my skill checks in the combat heavy PFS, I'm just going to stay combat ready.

I'm also slightly confused as to who is allowed to know my identity anyway. Should my party, should my GM, should the society? What group of adventurers has a guy just come and go while some stranger replaces him. I understand this is a simple RP thing, but it ends up being something I'll ignore until I get a real penalty for it.

Going forward at level 2 I get my first vigilante talent. I get to choose between; track, stern gaze, Domain, divine bastion. Track is okay and a good class feature, but not for combat. Stern gaze is good for the scenarios where you can influence NPC's, but influencing NPC's in combat involves feats, and specific conditions for which the costs aren't equal to the value, IMO. Domain is a big one which gives me some lee-way to play and may be my choice. Getting a spell to hit touch or some other ability would increase my combat potential. Lastly, I LOVE divine bastion. The idea of buffing my parties CMD is great, too bad that won't happen until I pick it with my 6th level Vigilante talent. (But that +3 to CMD for the party will be baller!). I eventually envision my role as a buffer/debuffer for my party. Sort of like an inquisitor, but without judgements! Yay!

The last talent I mention really brings me to my struggle with this class, is this class worth it for PFS? In home games, campaigns start at level 1-20 and every ability gets its fair touch. Social aspects are expanded upon as the world is much more continuous than in PFS scenario land. PFS takes place mainly between levels 1-12. Yes you can get higher, but most scenarios written are for players under level 12 for a reason, that's where most of the players are in terms of level. I know when I make characters, I look how quickly their going to be fun for me to play. I'm willing to tough out a few levels to get real progress at 3 or 4, but this character seems to take much longer to come together, maybe even past that level 12 benchmark. That said, I'm going to continue to playtest it, and hopefully with my feedback and the feedback of others it may be something I'll play when the book comes out.

[Josh Klingerman]

I didn't get a chance to join these guys in this playtest but I ran into similar concerns when trying to build an Avenger to join.

All of the archetypes feel like strictly worse versions of their base classes at level one. I'm assuming it gets better as you level up, but that first level is going to be PAINFUL. And god forbid your whole party is this class, which seems to be at least partially the intent.

Some specifics: I went to make an Avenger and one of the things that jumped out at me from reading the Talents was a Grapple/Maneuver master. As a Human Avenger, you have two Feats at level one. You don't want to take Improved Unarmed - you can get it as a Talent at 2. There's quite a few Talents in here that are the starting point of Feat Trees that you've got to wait until 2 to even start, and that's frustrating for people.

I think this class in the mid tier is solid - levels 6-15 or so look like they're going to be reasonable, but it needs serious help at the early levels and I think the obvious solution is that Vigilante Talent get moved either to a 1/3/5/7... progression, or be like Fighter bonus feats and be 1/2/4/6/... I don't think you have to worry about people multiclassing as most of these Talents aren't front-loaded. A number of them take until 6 to power up into the "better than a feat" option, but a lot of them are necessary at 1 to really get a reasonable theme going.

As it stands, if I were to play an Avenger in PFS, I'd be hard pressed not to just retrain my level 1 feat(s) as soon as I got at least one Vigilante Talent to start the Feat Trees with. Anything that involves a recommendation of "Just choose whatever at 1 and Retrain it after you get a Vigilante Talent" is really bad for that class. One more talent at level 1 isn't going to break this class, but it will make quality of life better for all four archetypes.

[Josh Klingerman]

Second post.

Charisma is currently a Trap.

There is exactly one ability (at level 11) that requires Charisma for the DC. Only the Zealot even has CHA as a casting stat.

My same Avenger example from level 1 above is going to be hard pressed to consider investing more than a 14, and even that is iffy, in Charisma for PFS.

I'd look for more reasons to encourage all four archetypes to seriously consider Charisma other than for Skills.

*) Use Charisma for the Warlock somehow - maybe not as the primary casting stat, but for the variable in a number of Talents perhaps. Maybe add some Talents that function like Arcanist exploits.
*) Consider having a General pool of Talents that all archetypes can select from. Things that let you use Charisma for alternative skill sets. Maybe one Talent to apply CHA to Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Sense Motive. One for some Knowledge skills. Hell I'd even be stoked to see one to use CHA for your bonus HP instead of CON. Would be something unique but not completely broken.
*) For the Martial Classes, Talents that utilize CHA and aren't necessarily just Bonus Feats plus something. Maybe CHA to Damage with certain types of attacks. Maybe CHA to CMB checks of varying types.

Most of the above is just brainstorming, I'm looking for ways to make this stat interesting to the Vigilante both in Social and Vigilante 'roles'.

[Alexander Augunas]

I had my buddy start working on an Avenger too (I'm going to run a Level 9 Vigilante playtest in the near future), and one of the ideas that sprouted out of it was to make Startling Appearance a 1st-level ability. Currently, most of the specializations don't get any abilities that play off of the "I'm badass on the First Round" niche that the designers have said they wanted the vigilante to have, so doing something like that could help the vigilante out tremendously.

Of course, if that's really the design goal, an initiative bonus while in the vigilante identity might be helpful.

[Trekkie90909]

Well Stalker can utilize Cha if it takes underhanded, which synergizes VERY nicely with Silent Kill. Currently the only issue with that is that Hidden Strike is not sneak attack so underhanded doesn't work with the Stalker.