I'm looking over the vigilante, and the avenger has me...concerned. I like the idea and I agree that it's good to have, but I am seeing an issue with the features given not meshing well with other class abilties. What I mean is this, the main class has a lot of stuff for sudden ambush attacks and generally being sneaky and social. The combat stuff, yes it has a few cool stealth oriented abilities (Suckerpunch, the armor training stuff to stay hidden) most of them don't fit as well. The problem is also that those stealth attacks are only going to be good once, since unlike the other classes there are no spells or talents to allow the avenger to vanish into the shadows again for another ambush.
I'd also point out that ranged could use a bit more love for the vigilante in terms of avenger talents, but that might just be my bias. I love the manuever stuff, and the ability to use vital strike on attacks of opportunity, the charge trick was nice too but by and large I'm a little iffy. Maybe it's just that it doesn't seem to have the same pop that the other versions of vigilante do, but it does feel like it could use a lot more polishing, if only to either be able to take proper advantage of the stealth tricks or a better way to get around being able to use those abilities maybe once in a combat.
I think Avenger has a good mix of abilities that keep to its goal of back alley hero, with the addition of some solid martial abilities.
Like Favored Maneuver + Living Shield is an awesome combination.
I don't think the Avenger is going to be the kind of vigilante who strikes and then disappears into shadows. More like the kind to make a strong introduction and then brawl the rest of it out.
I do think that Nothing Can Stop Me needs to have a bonus to damaging objects in order to be more useful.
Most of the Avenger talents are feats that scale a bit while leveling.
Just a heads up, the title is a bit offencive, as you're basically saying that they did a s!&$ job and should start over.
I see that there's a lot "I feel like" or "I think that" and no hard numbers when people havn't actually playtested the class (this probably affects what paizo listens to or not).I wouldn't say that the Suckerpunch only usable once/encounter is a problem compared to that it's none-leathal damage, it's a flavourful talent, not an optimal one.
The avenger do get enough ranged love, as they can pick combat feats instead of their talents (and they can pick it mutliple times). That's all a ranged character needs, with that it's almost as good as a fighter but also have a social/skills side. The extra love for melee helps to make it not just another composite bow class.
The problem is that most of the avenger talents and abilities only really work for ranged. And I would love to see options where an archer could use arrows or bolts to pin an opponent to a wall, or use trick ammunition. The suckerpunch thing and other general ambush abilities are still problematic in that, as the class currently stands, you only get to use that surprise once. You can make a decent splashy entrance but after that a lot of your features are questionable, this is very noticeable when compared to the other features which either have ways of going back into the darkness and ambushing again or have ways of doing their work more subtly.
Maybe my tone might seem harsh with the title but the fact is that the avenger feels like the class features are not meshing properly with the design. There are some cool elements, the charge, the vital strike attack of opportunity, but in general the abilities look as though they're at odds with the main class features or at least synergize very poorly.
Just a heads up, the title is a bit offencive, as you're basically saying that they did a s!&$ job and should start over.
I see that there's a lot "I feel like" or "I think that" and no hard numbers when people havn't actually playtested the class (this probably affects what paizo listens to or not).I wouldn't say that the Suckerpunch only usable once/encounter is a problem compared to that it's none-leathal damage, it's a flavourful talent, not an optimal one.
The avenger do get enough ranged love, as they can pick combat feats instead of their talents (and they can pick it mutliple times). That's all a ranged character needs, with that it's almost as good as a fighter but also have a social/skills side. The extra love for melee helps to make it not just another composite bow class.
The problem is that most of the avenger talents and abilities only really work for MELEE. And I would love to see options where an archer could use arrows or bolts to pin an opponent to a wall, or use trick ammunition. The suckerpunch thing and other general ambush abilities are still problematic in that, as the class currently stands, you only get to use that surprise once. You can make a decent splashy entrance but after that a lot of your features are questionable, this is very noticeable when compared to the other features which either have ways of going back into the darkness and ambushing again or have ways of doing their work more subtly.
Maybe my tone might seem harsh with the title but the fact is that the avenger feels like the class features are not meshing properly with the design. There are some cool elements, the charge, the vital strike attack of opportunity, but in general the abilities look as though they're at odds with the main class features or at least synergize very poorly.
Oops, fixed above.
The main thing that needs to be changed about Avenger is that it needs something else at level 1 besides full BAB.
Avenger has 2 good saves, +1 to hit, and a +4 bonus to 1 mental skill and also intimidate. It doesn't even get d10.
Fighter gets a feat, barbarian gets rage, ranger gets favored enemy, paladin gets smite, gunslinger gets guns and grit.
It's not even a 3/4 BAB class getting a buff, because Avenger's talent selection makes it a fancy fighter. At the very least it should do what it is and give a bonus feat at level 1, or give Some kind of practical combat ability the way all the other melee classes do.
Level 1 matters!
It's not really a problem with the class. They won't really have talents to spend on anything but combat feats if they're using ranged (and they shouldn't get alternative talent options for ranged, as ranged characters don't need to get any stronger. Otherwise they'd have to be sub-par compared to combat feats or create a new variant way of using ranged, which shouldn't be a part of one class but a much bigger system).
It also isn't a problem since the class probably isn't supposed to be used with ranged (as no talent refers to a ranged attack or weapon but several times to a sword user). Just like how a Barbarian, Brawler or a Wizard (etc) doesn't really have anything in-class to support ranged combat specifically.
I can't say that the avenger doesn't have good synergy (as it's about as much as a regular fighter). Taken into account that it's a class that does two seperate ways of play (and really can't have synergy between social or vigilante mode).
Your comparisons are kind of off, Barbarian is meant to be melee first and foremost with stats that boost strength and the like, and the brawler is, well a brawler again mainly melee. The vigilante however doesn't have anything thematically that would seem to preclude ranged combat and in fact if looking at themes would seem to be something that would embrace it.
The problem with that setup though is that the vigilante abilities don't mesh well with the avenger package. The stuff for being frightening or awe inspiring do not, for example, mesh well with a package that has virtually no means of returning to stealth after attack. So while they might (emphasis on might) be able to make a splashy entrance afterwards they are going to be at something of a disadvantage.
Not to mention that I don't think it's unreasonable to have some options for ranged, something as simple as being able to use arrows or bolts to pin someone to a wall or do a ranged disarm, hell call it trick ammo or something. Not to mention the idea of providing options for thrown weapons isn't the worst idea either. The main problem is that yes, there are some cool melee abilities (the charge power, sucker punch, and the vital strike AOO talent) it doesn't have a lot of things that scream out a good setup or something that would feel very unique or interesting.
I'd argue that it needs more ranged support, or at least some ranged options. Not to mention, as said before, it needs a few other talent options to not feel like it's trying to be a fighter with a small number of useful tricks. Actually one potentially good idea might be doing something a bit like Tome of Battle from 3.5 for the avenger.
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Avenger is a fighter archetype that trades a feat, weapon training and armor training and access to Greater Weapon Spec. to get 6+int skills and psuedo pounce, that's it. That's all it currently is.
In simpler terms, it's a worse version of Lore Warden.
Not particularly, though. Much like a fighter, an avenger can take ranged combat feats (even a non-human avenger can have point blank, precise, rapid, and weapon focus by 4th level).
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Just a heads up, the title is a bit offencive, as you're basically saying that they did a s+#* job and should start over.
Paizo is staffed by adults. I'm sure they can handle someone saying the class needs to be re-worked from the ground up.
One time my teacher told me I was completely wrong and needed to go back and reread the chapter before coming back to them with questions.
Was she being offensive?
One time I was tutoring another student in math and he had no idea what he was doing. I said that we need to go back to the previous chapter before we can even begin to work on the current chapter.
Was I being offensive?
That was math which is rooted in fact and the power level of the Avenger is, at best, an informed opinion. The opinion that "X needs to go back to the drawing board" when used within a critique is not offensive in any way.
If you believe it to be offensive, then never go to college because you will be offended by every teacher you ever meet.
The Avenger isn't really a fighter with 6+ int skill points. It's a ranger that loses Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain, spell casting and a few other class abilities in exchange for a modular Fighting Style bump on even levels. Which in itself is fine. The larger problem is that the Avenger talents are a bit of a mish-mash and several aren't really synergistic with each other. There are different ways to build it that work including 2-handed weapon Vital Striker, Sword and Board fighter, Grappler, Close ranged vital-strike-snap-shot, depending on what you're looking for.
It does kind of run out of steam though, especially if you're in a campaign that goes past level 12. At that point, you can pick up a few Fighter-only Combat Feats that have a level req of 6+, but there's not a lot that's exciting. For my build I was making there were also a couple of "filler" abilities I took to supplement Signature Weapon, Vital Punishment, and Mad Rush that weren't really exciting, but a feat is a feat.
Except the comparison there is far worse for the Vigilante, because they also don't get to ignore the prereqs on their feats like a Ranger does.
The fact that their combat skill gives them a combat feat at 1/2 Fighter level should clue you in to what the class is trying to be.
Your comparisons are kind of off, Barbarian is meant to be melee first and foremost with stats that boost strength and the like, and the brawler is, well a brawler again mainly melee. The vigilante however doesn't have anything thematically that would seem to preclude ranged combat and in fact if looking at themes would seem to be something that would embrace it.Except that the avenger doesn't really have anything ranged at all. It's refered to as a guy in the shadows, charging out and striking with his sword (both flavour and mechanically).
Just like how a Brawler is a fist fighter and not a ranged character, or how a Barbarian gets a lot of melee boosting but nothing extra for ranged. The avenger sings the same song.
No, no it really doesn't and please don't say that it does. The brawler in name and class features shows that it is meant to be an up close combatant. The barbarian can do ranged combat but class features show otherwise. Main class features for the Vigilante are those of the secret identity and the ambush features. And before you say that the talents themselves prove it then, I point out that the talents as done are poor.
And, since we tend to dance around it, let's actually look at the heroes who are in fact ranged weapon specialists.
Punisher, Vigilante, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Red Hood. Not to mention a guy who patterns himself off a certain winged mammal who also has some rather iconic thrown weaponry. The point is that a combatant character for ranged makes sense, especially given the fact that a ranged character can at least theoretically get more advantage out of the ambush features in a combat since they might be able to do it more than once.
Frankly one good idea might be to give the Avenger the 'from surprise' abilities in such a way that they also work on enemies they get crits on or on other enemies after they down a foe. Since one of their big issues is simply that the surprise abilities are more or less only good once.
No, no it really doesn't and please don't say that it does. The brawler in name and class features shows that it is meant to be an up close combatant. The barbarian can do ranged combat but class features show otherwise. Main class features for the Vigilante are those of the secret identity and the ambush features. And before you say that the talents themselves prove it then, I point out that the talents as done are poor.
What's poor about a class that can have all the ranged combat feats of any other archer build and specializes in ambush attacks? For that matter, there are ranged options for both the brawler (shield champion) and the barbarian (Hurler, primal hunter, and savage technologist archetypes).
And, since we tend to dance around it, let's actually look at the heroes who are in fact ranged weapon specialists.
Punisher, Vigilante, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Red Hood. Not to mention a guy who patterns himself off a certain winged mammal who also has some rather iconic thrown weaponry.
Any of the characters you listed can be build using the current avenger.
One could argue that ranged Avenger is one of its few strengths, with vital strikes snap shots.
One could argue that ranged Avenger is one of its few strengths, with vital strikes snap shots.
Yeah I'll give that that trick is handy.
@Vrog: With no ability to regain the ambush position it's still tricky, range is easier but still not great. And the problem is that most of the talents aren't very useful for a ranged character. My point was why not create talents like say trick ammunition.
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the thing is..they say extra talent for vigilante is not going to be a thing...to that I say fine but considering witches, oracles get extra hexes, extra revelations...the talents must be at least, as strong or stronger. Getting full martial proficiency? a revelation, move faster? a revelation, hardening skin to become like stoneskin? a revelation. Immediate action (moving up to your speed)? A revelation, rolling twice for initiative and taking the higher result? a revelation.
Just saying...the vigilante talents need to be much more stronger. Avenger being a weaker lore warden doesn't help with that at the moment.
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I've built a few Avenger versions so far.
Sword and Board Shield Bash Tank - I felt this character was underwhelming and it's a bit of a trap. Sacrificing HP and starting 1 feat behind the fighter doing the same thing made the character noticeably weaker. Shield of Fury makes up for the level 1 feat, but this is such a feat intensive build that the Avenger basically has to match the fighter combat feat to combat feat, but doesn't get the perks that a fighter gets. The gap wasn't huge at mid-levels (7), but were more pronounced at high levels (12) (Archtypes for fighter can make this even a wider gap.)
Snapshot Vital Striker - This build was kind of a joke, but it ended up being surprisingly effective. The ranged toolbox had lots of tools that go really good with Vital Punishment since you can take over the battlefield with your ranged attacks of opportunity. I see this as a very viable build even if it's a bit gimicky.
Mobile Warrior - Concentrating on things like Mad Rush, Close the Gap, and Nothing Can Stop me was fun, but I think other classes due the mobile style better overall, and I was giving up too much by putting this many talents into this set of abilities.
@Vrog: With no ability to regain the ambush position it's still tricky, range is easier but still not great. And the problem is that most of the talents aren't very useful for a ranged character. My point was why not create talents like say trick ammunition.
I will concede that they should have some talents that are ranged focused, several of their talents could go either way (combat skill, signature weapon, favored maneuver (for use with any of the ranged combat maneuver options from ranged tactics toolbox), signature weapon, sucker punch (using, of all things, sleep arrows), unexpected strike, and vital punishment all work equally well melee and ranged.
Does anyone know if they confirmed a second playtest round or if this is gonna be it?
Jason said they are considering a second round, but no guarantees. They usually get enough feedback from the first round, that there isn't as much value in a second.
ACG playtest says otherwise.
Oh, too all the range combatant people, remember the Stalker does get unlimited range sneak attack... which is super nice :p
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I think a second round would be very worthwhile here, since about all the feedback they've gotten so far is "this sucks and needs to be fixed."
Plus a second round might let us see more of the actual class, given that one of the common dev answers was "Something from another part of the book that's actually still in the idea phase will totally fix this problem."
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Yeah, the Vigilante really reminds me of the Warpriest, Hunter, and Shaman from the ACG. Still in the very tumultuous idea phase and prone to drastic changes.
They benefit most from the two rounds of playtesting and I'm sure the Vigilante would mirror them in that regard.
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I rolled an Avenger for tomorrow night's playtest... I feel it's semi solid / acceptable despite the apparent AC, hp and Fort weaknesses, so the only thing that has me scratch my head at this point is Startling Appearance... what good is it for an Avenger? ok, flat-footed AC is easier to hit, but geez, they should throw in something else in there for the Avenger or other specializations that don't have a use for sneak attack type approach...
Edit: the -4 to hit against the Vigilante is very nice... but perhaps give a choice of effects other than "flat footed"
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Here's a suggestion for something that the vigilante could select instead of flat-footed... add wording to startling appearance along the following lines:
Until the end of the vigilante's turn, decided each time the vigilante catches a target unaware, the target is either flat-footed or panicked.
The keyword here is: until the end of the vigilante's turn
This means that instead of making the target flat-footed one could make it panicked for a brief instant and therefore have the target drop it's weapon... at the end of the vigilante's turn the target is no longer panicked, so no lasting effect. The target must then, on its turn, either pick up his weapon (AoO), attack with unarmed strike (AoO if without Improved Unarmed Strike), draw a new weapon (move action so no full attack on the Vigilante that round, unless quickdraw), etc. etc. etc.
In short, briefly panicked *can* be a significant advantage for the Vigilante... certainly not as good as flat-footed is for a stalker, but if you're anything else than stalker, this *can* mean your target is weaponless next round, and thus *can* be good if say, the target appears to be some kind of master swordsman or something.....
Many of the abilities of the Vigilante do not help the Avenger in comparison the Stalker and Warlock.
Startling Appearance, Vengeance Strike, and a Reflex Save across the board instead of trading it away for Fort when picking the Avenger Spec, all don't help the Avenger marginally if at all.