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I'm going to approach this as though the various specializations are different classes. First though, the abilities they all share.
Dual Identity: This seems...pointlessly restrictive and involved. Very wordy for what it essentially does. There seems to be no reason why it changes your alignment, for one thing. Master Chymist makes sense: You're Dr. Jekyll. But this? It's a costume.
And why can't you use any of your abilities out of costume? That makes zero sense whatsoever. I could understand something like forfeiting the "Can't be scryed" bonuses for anyone who sees you do stuff, but suddenly losing spellcasting ability and whatnot (or even better, losing EX abilities) is nonsensical.
At the same time, the social aspect gives very few advantages. You'd think something like extra skill ranks would be in order from 1st level, choosing a Profession or Craft and sticking with that, maybe with a few others to add to Knowledge (or Lore from Unchained?).
Social Grace: This is like what I suggested above, but not very good at all.
Vigilante Talent: I'll go into them in depth in the spoilers below, but I'm getting VERY tired of the use of "Talent". We have Rogue Talents, Slayer Talents, Investigator Talents, and now Vigilante Talents. I would like for this class to be Talent-less.
Renown: Seems like a matter of "too little, too late". Also, pointlessly repeats "The bonus while he is in his social identity remains unchanged" too many times. It provides a largely irrelevant Intimidate bonus and, let's be honest, an almost entirely irrelevant Diplomacy boost because you're not going to be using your social identity more than once in a blue moon because it does basically nothing for you.
Startling Appearance: I like it. Very Batman-y.
Loyal Aid: It's interesting. it's the kind of thing I've wanted for a class for a while, though the fact that it only works in one VERY small area makes it of dubious value until 15th level, since almost any campaign that stays in one place for longer than a week will likely take place in a large city. Would improve greatly if it allowed for carving out a "territory" inside a city equal to a community of 200/2000/5000/Etc. people. Kind of like Daredevil (in the Netfix series) is becoming very well known in Hell's Kitchen, but not New York as a whole.
Many Guises: Baaaad. This is the kind of thing any character should be able to do (much like, honestly, the majority of Dual Identity's function should just be a Disguise check).
Frightening Appearance: I don't like it. Generally speaking your enemies being Frightened is more annoying than helpful. Easily improved by making the ability to Frighten separate from the ability to cause the Shaken condition, with only the former requiring a Will save.
Quick Change: Why the "hastily donned" problem for such a late level ability? Gimme the Superman or Wonder Woman "spin in a circle and be in costume" ability as a Full-Round and have done. 1 minute and 5 minutes are functionally indistinguishable. Either you have time for the transformation or you don't.
Stunning Appearance: Too late game to really matter. Especially since it's largely ineffectual against anything not Humanoid (since monsters generally have a higher HD than your level). Would be cool if you pumped it down to 13th or so and removed the +4 to save clause. Batman class is so scary even monsters wet themselves when he leaps from the shadows.
Everyman: Yes I'm sure I'll use an ability at 19th level to finally be able to impersonate a SPECIFIC peasant. Yeah, no. This could just be a part of Many Guises back at 9th and STILL be a pretty bad ability.
Vengeance Strike: This has all the impracticality of use of Assassinate (which comes online at 10th or thereabouts I remind you) and none of the cool save or die effect. It's basically "Spend 5 rounds to make sure a single attack hits" (which you gave up, what, 15 chances to hit to do?) "Add 15d6 damage" (...why), or "Use awkwardly worded ability that should just say 'add +2 to-hit and increase threat range by 2'". Terrible, especially for a capstone.
For the base class abilities I'm less than impressed, to put it mildly. The concept is great, the execution is bad.
More forthcoming on the Specializations. Have some stuff to do.
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Specializations:
Base Ability: Assault Training: Interesting, just for the concept (granting ACTUAL Full BaB through a class ability).
Armor Silence: I'd probably never spend a talent on this, given Mithral Breastplate (the heaviest armor you can wear without a Feat for this class) only has a -1 penalty. A +1 to Stealth checks is meh, especially when the Armor Expert Trait does the same thing here.
Armor Skin: And I certainly wouldn't spend TWO Talents for this.
Close the Gap: Iffy on this one. Only really relevant if you're Charging or he has Reach.
Combat Skill: Pretty good. Would be improved if the "treat half your levels as Fighter for Feats" applied to ALL Feats, not just this one. But it's basically just a Bonus Feat.
Environment Weapon: ...Why does this exist? Seriously, why would I EVER take this instead of Catch Off Guard?
Favored Maneuver: Solid. Essentially guarantees a success from Stealth. Still, basically just a Combat Feat, so pretty boring.
Fist of the Avenger: Pretty solid for an unarmed combatant, but other classes still do it a lot better. But, it needed to exist for the concept, and a good execution for it since it's not JUST a Combat Feat.
Heavy Training: Hey look. Another Feat. Yay.
Living Shield: Hm. I like it. It's essentially the same as a Mythic ability, which is a bold move, and it's better than the Feat equivalent (Body Shield) in certain ways.
Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.
Nothing Can Stop Me!: Interesting concept, largely impractical. Essentially impossible to bust a door in a single attack.
Shield of Fury: Bonus Feats...but it basically counts as two at once, so at the very least it's great bang for your buck, and it ignores the Dex prerequisite.
Signature Weapon: Same as the above, really. Technically twice as good as a Feat, if boring.
Suckerpunch: Probably pretty good in certain niche Nonlethal builds.
Unexpected Strike: Bonus Feat with a tiny extra. Yawn.
Unkillable: Misnamed, but decent. If it required preprequisites it'd be trash, but Die Hard is pretty good when it doesn't need Endurance.
Vital punishment: Bonus feat+. Yet again. At leats it gives a new use to Vital Strike, which is welcome.
Avenger Assessment: Kinda boring, but not horrible. Basically just a Fighter but better saves and skills.
Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.
How is it no penalty? You still have the -4 to ac till your next turn.
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Base Ability: Hidden Strike: Sneak Attack...but WORSE. Hoo boy, we're off to a good start.
Another Day: One of those things that might be really good solo, but could be a hindrance in a party game unless your DM is very lenient. Most people don't max Heal so a DC 21+ check is unlikely to be made, meaning characters would think you're dead and not apply aid, which basically leaves you out of the game for a session in the best case.
Case the Joint: Hey! Something that makes the social identity worthwhile. Problem being that, again, it's only really good if you're solo.
Expose Weakness: I like it. Dirty Trick is already a pretty varied maneuver, so this makes it better for specialized builds. A bit niche, but interesting.
Foe Collision: Requires too much of a contrived enemy arrangement (flanked by you and a buddy with another ally adjacent) to ever come into play, and the benefit isn't great anyway.
Hide in Plain Sight: Always a good thing to have.
Leave an Opening: Awkwardly worded. Likely functions awkwardly in play. Weird benefit as well. Not terrible, but odd. Seems like just being able to expend an AoO to take an extra attack would work better, and keep the flow of the game going (rather than Your turn-Another turn-Their turn-AoO-They complete their turn).
Mighty Ambush: I like it. Basically the Brawler's Knockout but not limited per day.
Mockingbird: Eh. Interesting. Useful in theory, not likely in practice. Cool but impractical.
Perfect Fall: This ability pisses me off. Why couldn't the Unchained Monk's Slow Fall have been improved at least THIS much instead of being nerfed?
Perfect Vulnerability: Bad action economy, meh effect. Pass.
Pull into the Shadow: Pfffthahahaha. Drag combat maneuver. That's cute.
Rogue Talent: Hey, maybe I can take one of those 6 that are worthwhile.
Rooftop Infiltrator: Minor, but good.
Shadow Sight: Great for Humans, not so much for most other races.
Silent Dispatch: Again, one of those things that might be useful in a solo game.
Sniper: Even at any distance, ranged Sneak Attack is pretty bad.
Strike the Unseen: Three Feats in one, and really good ones too. Cool.
Surprise Strike: Eh. Not really worth a Talent.
Throat Jab: Good in theory, probably not in practice. Good synergy with Silent Dispatch, but again...solo games only. Seems like a good anti-caster until you realize it relies on Hidden Strike, so you're flanking the guy anyway. He's already boned.
Twisting Fear: Decent with Intimidate builds, I guess. But not very good.
Up Close and Personal: Not bad.
Stalker Assessment: Kinda the opposite of Avenger. Interesting, but impractical. Good for a game with a bunch of lone wolves carrying out separate missions, or a 1 on 1 game or something, but not for the usual.
Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.How is it no penalty? You still have the -4 to ac till your next turn.
Close the Gap removes the -2 to AC from Charging.
Though I guess technically this doesn't apply to the Mad Rush, I think it's the intent to AT LEAST reduce the penalty back to -2.
Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.How is it no penalty? You still have the -4 to ac till your next turn.Close the Gap removes the -2 to AC from Charging.
Though I guess technically this doesn't apply to the Mad Rush, I think it's the intent to AT LEAST reduce the penalty back to -2.
The -4 penalty is in addition to the penalty for charging, not part of it. Also, the penalty isn't just for attacks of oppertunity, it's till your next turn. Close the gap reduces the penalty to -4, rather than -6.
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Base Ability(?): Arcane Training I-VI: 6th level Arcanist casting. Kind of cool. Annoying that it's Int based...some base Vigilante abilities are already Cha.
Arcane Striker: Bonus Feat plus Arcane Pool ability.
Bombs: Bombs!
Bond of Blood: Interesting, but he can cast False Life. Still, temp HP are always nice.
Caster's Defense: Interesting and useful.
Concealed Casting: I REALLY like this, though I allow this in stealth heavy games a houserule anyway.
Educated Defense: W O W
Elemental Battle Armor: Good scaling and I'm a sucker for immunities. And the imagery.
Familiar: Objectively good, but I hate the little furry bastards.
Living Shadow: Can't really comment since, you know, the book isn't out yet. 90% sure it's not like the 8th level Psionic power Shadow Body.
Mystic Bolt: Hope the team realizes this kicks the Kineticist's ass.
Nonlethal Spellcasting: Why not just say "The vigilante gains the Merciful Spell metamagic Feat for free"? This is why they're constantly complaining about not having enough word count.
Shadow Jump: Neat.
Signature Spell: Boring, but practical.
Social Simulacrum: I like it, but given that you effectively only have 4 Talents, probably not worth it since it's VERY niche.
Tattoo Chamber: I REALLY like this. Thematic, practical, great image.
Warlock Assessment: Most powerful one so far AND has the most interesting abilities, with very few duds. Why is it the design team only gives a damn when the class has spellcasting?
The -4 penalty is in addition to the penalty for charging, not part of it. Also, the penalty isn't just for attacks of oppertunity, it's till your next turn. Close the gap reduces the penalty to -4, rather than -6.Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.How is it no penalty? You still have the -4 to ac till your next turn.Close the Gap removes the -2 to AC from Charging.
Though I guess technically this doesn't apply to the Mad Rush, I think it's the intent to AT LEAST reduce the penalty back to -2.
Ah. Close the Gap is pretty bad then.
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The -4 penalty is in addition to the penalty for charging, not part of it. Also, the penalty isn't just for attacks of oppertunity, it's till your next turn. Close the gap reduces the penalty to -4, rather than -6.Mad Rush: Pounce! Everyone loves Pounce. Upgrades "Close the Gap" to pretty durn good if you take this, since it lets you assault a Large or bigger target with literally no penalty.How is it no penalty? You still have the -4 to ac till your next turn.Close the Gap removes the -2 to AC from Charging.
Though I guess technically this doesn't apply to the Mad Rush, I think it's the intent to AT LEAST reduce the penalty back to -2.
Yeah, my first impression was if I wanted Barbarian style AC penalties to be able to pounce, I'd just play a Barbarian. At least they have a d12 hit die to survive the retribution when the enemies hit back.
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Base Ability(?): Divine Training I-VI: Cha based casting from one of my favorite spell lists in the game. I like.
Channel Energy: Channel Energy is a bad class feature. It is even worse when it's at your level -4 and takes one of your 4 Talents you get across 20 levels.
Discern lies: Actually my least favorite Inquisitor feature since they already have a massive Sense Motive, but a mite more practical here.
Divine Bastion: ~Like a rock, oooooh, like a rock~ This ability is decent. Probably wouldn't spend a talent on it but good if maneuvers are an issue regularly in your campaign.
Domain: Domains are generally solid, and it makes you qualify for Divine Protection. As a Cha based caster. Yeah, you want this.
Empower Symbol: Is one of your buddies a Necromancer? If yes, he'll be your best friend 5evr if you use this as an Evil character. If not...Consecrate isn't the best spell, and not worth the Talent.
Life Bond: Immediate action Shield Other is niche, but solid.
Penance Gaze: ...Meh.
Revivifying Touch: Breath of Life a few times a day is pretty good. Again, why they didn't just write "The Vigilante can cast Breath of Life as a spell-like ability once per day" instead is baffling.
Stalwart: Stalwart is one of my FAVORITE Inquisitor abilities. I love it.
Stern Gaze: I take back what I said about Discern Lies, this will probably serve you better.
Track: Meh when it's free, meh-er when you have to spend a Talent on it.
Zealot Assessment: Honestly speaking? Just feels like a poor man's Inquisitor. Doesn't really stand out in any way.
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Final class assessment: The Warlock is great! The Zealot is decent. The other two...not. Like, at all.
This:
It is important to note that unlike many of the other classes with a variety of options to choose from, the vigilantes talents are intentionally a bit more powerful than most. As a result, there will probably not be an Extra Vigilante Talent feat. Please keep this in mind while playtesting the vigilante.
Is pretty much blatant lies for everything but the Warlock and Zealot's Divine/Arcane Training.
The best of them are on par with Revelations. The worst are on par with Rogue Talents. This evens out to "deserves a Feat for more", especially since the ones as good as Revelations are only for half the four Specializations.
If this is "intentionally more powerful" I weep to see what isn't.
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My own first impression is actually similar in many ways (though I'll note that Avengers lack Weapon Training or any equivalent).
Also, in fairness, what struck me was how easy it was to fix the basic chassis up a whole lot by giving them an equivalent to Studied Target (ie: a scaling attack/damage bonus). That on top of their other features really helps a whole lot.
They could use a bit of other powering up, too, but nothing too difficult.
And remember, Paizo has a history of releasing the most conservative (ie: weakest) version of a Class in their first playtest (Mark Seifter noted doing precisely this with the Kineticist), presumably since that way any changes are powering the Class up, not down, and because it makes sure there are no hidden synergies that break things completely.
So...I don't disagree that the Class is too weak (it most certainly is), but I'm less annoyed about it, at least for the moment.
If they improve it so everything is about as strong and varied as the Warlock it'll be great.
I see them sort of as four different classes, which seems like the point.
I would play an Avenger over a Fighter any day, but it's still dull, and I'd take a Slayer over it.
Stalker is the one most in need of improvement across the board. Their abilities are interesting, but generally only apply to specific situations, much like a lot of Rogue Talents. They need to either be more versatile/usable or just REALLY REALLY GOOD at that niche. Preferably the former.
Warlock got the most love it seems.
And Zealot really does seem like an Inquisitor but worse. Its Talents are, besides a few unique gems, just Inquisitor class abilities...and not the main, powerful ones either (sans spellcasting). It just needs some more unique and powerful ones.
Avenger and Stalker especially need some SPECTACULAR Talents to make up for a full 6 levels of casting.
The nonlethal spell ability differentiates from the metamagic feat in that if he took the feat, he had to use it on the fly and make casting a full-round action, or prepare the spell already metamagicked, thus losing the faculty to modify the spell when needed.
Also the choice applies to all the spellcasting of the character similarly to sorcerer arcanas, thus he can change spells on the fly without making full-round with every spell he can cast even from other classes
Eh, still. Even adding a line about it not changing the casting time would have been way shorter.
I see this class working as an NPC, but as a PC it starts to look suspicious because in both forms it is hanging around the party. Why is one gone and the other is there? Over the course of an entire AP/campaign I would expect for the bad guy to get suspicious.
However even if the GM handwaves that to help the player it takes too long to change costumes.
I made a 3rd level expert and 3rd level fighter since that was easier than making the actual class just to cover the costume change in different scenarios. It was messy. They were not full builds.
Tomorrow I will make a 3rd of 5th level version and post the playtest results later this week if I can't do it tomorrow. I am going to rerun an encounter that was supposed to be social but one of my old groups turned into a combat situation. <----I have seen this more than once.
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Stalker review
You go on about needing to flank or always being in flank. While true for early levels, Hide in Plain Sight should be every stalker's 8th level talent. I think that makes some options (like Foe collision) open up a lot more.
Re: Another Day. Just tell your party that you are part opossum and to always attempt a cure spell on your body.
Re: Perfect Vulnerability. I think it has some use in letting you put hidden strike riders on enemies when you otherwise wouldn't be able to flank or hide. (darn GMs and their narrow, brightly lit hallways)
Re: Pull into shadows. You get a hidden strike and a free attempt to bring the enemy closer to your waiting allies without a movement limit. Not bad for parties that like to gang up on a foe.
Stalker reviewYou go on about needing to flank or always being in flank. While true for early levels, Hide in Plain Sight should be every stalker's 8th level talent. I think that makes some options (like Foe collision) open up a lot more.
Re: Another Day. Just tell your party that you are part opossum and to always attempt a cure spell on your body.
Re: Perfect Vulnerability. I think it has some use in letting you put hidden strike riders on enemies when you otherwise wouldn't be able to flank or hide. (darn GMs and their narrow, brightly lit hallways)
Re: Pull into shadows. You get a hidden strike and a free attempt to bring the enemy closer to your waiting allies without a movement limit. Not bad for parties that like to gang up on a foe.
Hide in Plain Sight just enables you to use Stealth in plain view, meaning you only get one attack per round.
Another Day...sure. It was a minor gripe.
Perfect Vulnerability: Some use, yeah. If they add more "On Hidden Strike" Talents that are better in the final version it'll be worthwhile. Throat Jab in particular stands out as a Standard action, no save caster screwer (if they don't have Silent Spell). But still niche.
Pull Into Shadows is bad because it relies on the Drag maneuver...which is 5 feet per round, +5 for every 5 by which you exceed CMD. So you generally can't move far.
Also you would likely have an atrocious CMB.
Final class assessment: The Warlock is great! The Zealot is decent. The other two...not. Like, at all.
This:
It is important to note that unlike many of the other classes with a variety of options to choose from, the vigilantes talents are intentionally a bit more powerful than most. As a result, there will probably not be an Extra Vigilante Talent feat. Please keep this in mind while playtesting the vigilante.
Is pretty much blatant lies for everything but the Warlock and Zealot's Divine/Arcane Training.
The best of them are on par with Revelations. The worst are on par with Rogue Talents. This evens out to "deserves a Feat for more", especially since the ones as good as Revelations are only for half the four Specializations.
If this is "intentionally more powerful" I weep to see what isn't.
Something to note, quite a few of your evaluations were, "this is a feat + something minor" or "this is two feats" and a feat+ ir two feats are more powerful than 1 feat. Now I know that revelations can give like 3+ feats, so some feats are really good. But I can see there being evidence that there are a lot of options that are better than feats.
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There are options that are better than Feats...but likewise there are for a lot of other classes.
The Battle Oracle, for example has three Revelations that do pretty much the exact same thing: Maneuver Mastery (Oracle level = BaB for CMB, gain Improved Maneuver of choice, gain Greater Maneuver of choice), Skill At Arms (full martial weapon proficiency, and Heavy Armor Proficiency as a Feat), and Weapon Mastery (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and Greater Weapon Focus).
All on top of 9 levels of casting. And they're really not even the best Revelations (though they are pretty good).
Not allowing an Extra Vigilante Talent is inconsistent and unnecessary.
We share a lot of the same observations.
I feel avenger and stalker could be combined, and a lot of the half-talents could be nixed completely and we could get a class that functions more like a hybrid class of the fighter and rogue.
"Not" sneak attack needs to be fixed.
I'm also not that into the Zealot. Not that it isn't good, but being CHA based is about the only thing it has over the actual inquisitor class, and it lacks a lot of the other good things.
Actually, I don't like that it's Cha based at all. Kind of wish they would make the Zealot Wis based and the Warlock Cha based to cut down on the SAD aspect of that class a bit more.
.... What SAD? Half the class is a Martial, and if you really want to make the best use of its skills, you need to have at least some Charisma. Hell, the fact that Warlock uses intelligence just makes it more MAD.
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Actually, I don't like that it's Cha based at all. Kind of wish they would make the Zealot Wis based and the Warlock Cha based to cut down on the SAD aspect of that class a bit more..... What SAD? Half the class is a Martial, and if you really want to make the best use of its skills, you need to have at least some Charisma. Hell, the fact that Warlock uses intelligence just makes it more MAD.
Don't be MAD or SAD, be GLAD :-)
Tis the first day of summer after all :-)