Why can't your social identity use talents?

[Ravingdork]

Seriously? What is the design rationale behind this limitation? It seems arbitrary, severely limiting, and totally unnecessary. Why would/should a character lose 3/4 of their class abilities half the time for...what exactly? It doesn't seem to enforce the vigilante concept or anything.

Bruce Wayne did all kinds of things attributed to Batman when he had too. Why? Because he didn't magically forget his training when he took off the cowl. Why are Pathfinder vigilantes different? Are they all suffering from multiple personality disorder or something?

Please discuss your thoughts on the matter and vote "yes" if you would like to see this odd limitation disappear.

[pixierose]

I honestly think its more 25/75 percent of the time. Which makes it alot easier, in another thread we are currwnttly talking about the way some talents might have access in your social identity.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Partly, I hope that this is a playtest problem. Mark has mentioned a few times that there will be social personal talents. The concept of your vigilant persona talents "turning off" is more palatable to me if your have social persona talents that "turn on."

[Milo v3]

ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Partly, I hope that this is a playtest problem. Mark has mentioned a few times that there will be social personal talents. The concept of your vigilant persona talents "turning off" is more palatable to me if your have social persona talents that "turn on."

I really hope the social talents come from a seperate pool of talents than the vigilante talents, otherwise your going to be weakening your adventuring ability by a large margin.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Milo v3 wrote:

ChesterCopperpot wrote:

Partly, I hope that this is a playtest problem. Mark has mentioned a few times that there will be social personal talents. The concept of your vigilant persona talents "turning off" is more palatable to me if your have social persona talents that "turn on."

I really hope the social talents come from a seperate pool of talents than the vigilante talents, otherwise your going to be weakening your adventuring ability by a large margin.

+1

It would be nice if they started you with one at 1st level, then maybe gain a social talent each time your renown increases (3, 9, 15).

[PIXIE DUST]

Also, if they do not come from a seperate pool of talents, the Casters are pretty much screwed because they need to burn damn near half theri talents just to cast a spell.

[VRMH]

I concur, though some Talents really should be limited to the Vigilante persona. On the other hand, it would be an option to have Talents that only work for the social guise.
The right tools for the right job, so to say.

[pH unbalanced]

Maybe every few levels the Social identity could unlock the ability to use one of the Vigilante Talents of their choice.

Say, starting at 5th with another one every 4 levels thereafter. That would give you access to about half your talents all the time.

[Rynjin]

Which is still half as many as you should have access to.

[Alexander Augunas]

Since this class is supposed to be Batman, I'll go ahead and say it: I don't like the idea that Bruce Wayne suddenly looses his 20+ years of martial combat experience just because he's not wearing the bat suit and "isn't in the right mentality" for it or whatever.

Simplifying the mechanic down to you having two identities that are independent from each other for the purpose of scrying and the like would be more than enough, in my opinion.

[James Gibbons]

I would vote for a social talent for every vigilante talent making ones. This would make the social persona more playable, like a dedicated party face. Have him be everything for social interaction that the vigilante is for combat.

[Excaliburproxy]

James Gibbons wrote:

I would vote for a social talent for every vigilante talent making ones. This would make the social persona more playable, like a dedicated party face. Have him be everything for social interaction that the vigilante is for combat.

I think that is excessive but I really like where your head is at. Maybe the social persona could have some bard-like inspire courage/leadership abilities that were limited use and inaccessible in the more lone wold vigilante mode.

[MMCJawa]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

James Gibbons wrote:

I would vote for a social talent for every vigilante talent making ones. This would make the social persona more playable, like a dedicated party face. Have him be everything for social interaction that the vigilante is for combat.

I think that is excessive but I really like where your head is at. Maybe the social persona could have some bard-like inspire courage/leadership abilities that were limited use and inaccessible in the more lone wold vigilante mode.

I really like that idea, and wouldn't mind seeing similar ideas.

[Ross Byers]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

I don't like the idea that Bruce Wayne suddenly looses his 20+ years of martial combat experience just because he's not wearing the bat suit and "isn't in the right mentality" for it or whatever.

For Batman specifically, I like it.* Likewise, there are plenty of secret identities that are specifically crafted to be anti-action. Diego de la Vega is the worst swordsman in California - he can't possibly be Zorro. Clark Kent is comically clumsy and cowardly.

I don't necessarily think it's the best thing for a general rule, but I see where they're coming from.

*:

There is an episode of Batman: The Animated Series, which given that I'm 30 years old is the definitive Batman to me, in which Bruce Wayne is attacked by evil robots. He flees, and doesn't fight back until he's in his Batman costume. He's not protecting his secret identity - the robots attacked Bruce because they already knew he was Batman. He knows it, and there are no other witnesses. Bruce Wayne is forever the emotionally wounded little boy - Batman is there to avenge and protect him**.

**:

My pet theory for how Bruce Wayne can be active during the day (most days - being a rich playboy does give you some excuses to take the day off or to show up tired), but Batman can be active all night, every night, is that Batman has a full on Dissociative Disorder. Bruce Wayne is asleep while Batman is punching bad guys or staking out a hideout, and Batman gets to sleep through Wayne Enterprises board meetings.

[RJGrady]

Dissociative disorders don't work quite that way. For an example of what might happen if one personality slept while the other was awake, watch

Spoiler:

Fight Club

. Hint: you become psychotic.

[Alexander Augunas]

Ross Byers wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

I don't like the idea that Bruce Wayne suddenly looses his 20+ years of martial combat experience just because he's not wearing the bat suit and "isn't in the right mentality" for it or whatever.

For Batman specifically, I like it.* Likewise, there are plenty of secret identities that are specifically crafted to be anti-action. Diego de la Vega is the worst swordsman in California - he can't possibly be Zorro. Clark Kent is comically clumsy and cowardly.

I don't necessarily think it's the best thing for a general rule, but I see where they're coming from.

The one Batman episode notwithstanding, those other two examples are covers for the vigilante identity. If the dual identity mechanic had an ability that stated that if you use any ability tied to your vigilante specialization outside of your vigilante identity, enemies could make a Knowledge (local) check to identity the similarities between what you're doing now and what you do during as a vigilante. Superman does not lose his powers while he's Clark Kent; as a matter of fact, he's completely unable to shave without his heat vision and he's used that ability in particular multiple times while in the Clark Kent persona.

[RJGrady]

It's worth noting that Bruce Wayne has used other non-Batman identities from time to time.

[Ross Byers]

RJGrady wrote:

Dissociative disorders don't work quite that way. For an example of what might happen if one personality slept while the other was awake, watch ** spoiler omitted **. Hint: you become psychotic.

Are you saying Batman isn't psychotic?

[Ross Byers]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

I don't like the idea that Bruce Wayne suddenly looses his 20+ years of martial combat experience just because he's not wearing the bat suit and "isn't in the right mentality" for it or whatever.

For Batman specifically, I like it.* Likewise, there are plenty of secret identities that are specifically crafted to be anti-action. Diego de la Vega is the worst swordsman in California - he can't possibly be Zorro. Clark Kent is comically clumsy and cowardly.

I don't necessarily think it's the best thing for a general rule, but I see where they're coming from.

The one Batman episode notwithstanding, those other two examples are covers for the vigilante identity. If the dual identity mechanic had an ability that stated that if you use any ability tied to your vigilante specialization outside of your vigilante identity, enemies could make a Knowledge (local) check to identity the similarities between what you're doing now and what you do during as a vigilante. Superman does not lose his powers while he's Clark Kent; as a matter of fact, he's completely unable to shave without his heat vision and he's used that ability in particular multiple times while in the Clark Kent persona.

I think it's going to be difficult enough to avoid blowing your secret identity in a normal game, given that the other PCs you're hanging around with don't have secret identities (or at least, not ones protected by game mechanics). We don't need a specific mechanic for that.

But if the Social/Daytime/Secret identity can use the Vigilante talents, then what is really the difference between the two? Let's say you're a Zealot of Iomedae in Cheliax. Your secret Identity allows you to avoid the Inquisition because detect good won't light up on you. Should you really be able to acess your LG divine spells or talents while being a LN, well-mannered citizen?

We're talking about method acting that is SO GOOD it fools locate creature, scry, and detect X spells. It sort of makes sense that you're not really quite the same person.

Plus, the mechanics in this case seem to be build around rewarding dashing off to the phone booth/batcave to change, not to just use your powers and hope nobody notices.

[negativeview]

Re: Batman

In that same animated series there are tons of examples of Bruce Wayne doing cool stuff as himself. When he was kidnapped by the court of owls, he showed no fear despite their generally menacing demeanor and even planted a tracking device in their hideout, all with no costume. Bruce Wayne is a specially crafted mostly-false personality that appears to be timid and weak. He's not actually timid and weak. If push comes to shove, *especially* if the situation is life or death, he isn't going to let himself or anyone he cares about die just because he's not in a costume.

Not to mention that Batman specifically is a metric ton of different characters. There's campy batman, who just can't get rid of a bomb, there's the animated series who is mostly serious, but rarely dark, there's the batman with inexplicable bat nipples, there's super dark and serious batman. The Bruce Waynes in these different series are similarly varied and the Vigilante can't just choose to be one of these and not the others. It's a class we're intended to build a huge variety of characters with, and it can't even get the incarnations of Batman right (let alone the bajillion other Vigilantes in media) without having the mild-mannered alter ego being *capable* of doing most things that the super hero can do.

I would love an option to literally not have access to your super hero persona as social mode. Some people want to play Shazam! and that's cool, too. But we don't have the option to be Shazam OR Batman, we have only the option to be one of those, and it's the least common arrangement, to boot.

[negativeview]

Ross Byers wrote:

But if the Social/Daytime/Secret identity can use the Vigilante talents, then what is really the difference between the two?

In your average AP, probably nothing. And that's a problem. APs are supposed to be about the BBEG and if the BBEG goes after the friends and family of the players, then the AP is more about them than the BBEG, and every game turns out way differently, and there's a lot of questions that you can't answer in an AP.

But for some context, I'm currently GMing a custom game. The players got access to a two-way journal that could let them write messages to the BBEG, who they still hadn't come in direct contact with. One of the players decided to write something akin to "screw you." The BBEG, who previously was mostly ignoring them because they weren't a big enough deal to be on his radar, is now hunting down their friends and family. The campaign has turned into the players desperately trying to protect everyone they know. [Thankfully all the players are from the same starter town. It would have been much harder to take the plot this direction otherwise.]

THAT is the sort of stuff the DM has to be willing to do to make the social identity matter. You CAN'T put that stuff into an AP, it has to be designed for the players in question. So it's not that it's completely never relevant. It just can't (easily? at all?) be relevant in APs, including PFS. If you can't attack the players at their backstories... then yeah, it basically doesn't mean anything.

[Ross Byers]

The Court of Owls was not a thing yet when that series was happening. To what are you referring?

And I am aware the Batman has been a lot of things through the ages - that's why I said that it is purely due to my age that the '90s animated series is what I see as canonical.

As I said in my first post - I don't think this is the 'best' rule. It could just as easily be otherwise. But I do see virtue in the current set up - yes, it is better at doing Captain Marvel/Billy Batson than Superman/Clark Kent. But it means there is a mechanical reason to switch identities.

If you can access your Vigilante powers in Social mode, then why bother to switch at all?

[negativeview]

I found it on a youtube video trying to remember what was and wasn't in the animated series. It was animated in a style pretty close to the animated series, but wasn't credited. [Edit: Yes it was, I'm just blind. It was from a movie Batman vs Robin.] I'm still convinced that Bruce Wayne has showed great stealth and inventiveness in every iteration, and would be shocked if Bruce Wayne literally never got into a fist fight and kicked butt in the animated series.

If you missed it while replying, see my second post. To give you a reason to be in social mode you MUST be in a certain type of campaign that we rarely/never see in APs or PFS. Your origin story has to matter and it has to contain people worth protecting. This isn't a class meant for power gamers who take it for mechanical bonuses. It's for people that want to play an <Insert Hero Here> who has a reason to protect their back story built into their character.

Even with my saying that it's not for power gamers, there are still power-related issues that deserve discussion that have been brought up in other threads. I'm definitely not saying that the class is perfect or anything. But I honestly believe that the social identity is the most interesting part of the class as it stands, and the social identity needs access to super powers *at a cost* to actually be usable.

[Terminalmancer]

Ross Byers wrote:

If you can access your Vigilante powers in Social mode, then why bother to switch at all?

I think this question is at the core of many of the questions and concerns about the class as it stands. What does the social identity bring to the table outside of a nearly-negligible bonus to a skill and incredible vulnerability?

[Susano-wo]

Ross, I am 34, so that is my iconic batman as well. And he did plenty of badassed things while Bruce, feigning as much weakness as was necessary to deflect suspicion, but clandestinely using his abilities. That episode is an anomaly. :D

(now back to your previously scheduled topic) As far as the Vigilante class goes, I agree that not being able to use vigilante talents (at least those not reliant on the persona, like some of the surprise attack ones) is weird and immersion breaking. There should definitely be reasons to switch mechanically (or at least no inherent advantage either way, so that switching is purely according to who it is best to be seen as in any situation), but that is a very awkward way to do it. It's hard, especially in a social game (one, perhaps, filled with...Intrigue?), to play a character when you have to use or not use abilities that you cannot justify reasonably IC.

[Ross Byers]

negativeview wrote:

I found it on a youtube video trying to remember what was and wasn't in the animated series. It was animated in a style pretty close to the animated series, but wasn't credited. [Edit: Yes it was, I'm just blind. It was from a movie Batman vs Robin.] I'm still convinced that Bruce Wayne has showed great stealth and inventiveness in every iteration, and would be shocked if Bruce Wayne literally never got into a fist fight and kicked butt in the animated series.

If you missed it while replying, see my second post. To give you a reason to be in social mode you MUST be in a certain type of campaign that we rarely/never see in APs or PFS. Your origin story has to matter and it has to contain people worth protecting. This isn't a class meant for power gamers who take it for mechanical bonuses. It's for people that want to play an <Insert Hero Here> who has a reason to protect their back story built into their character.

Even with my saying that it's not for power gamers, there are still power-related issues that deserve discussion that have been brought up in other threads. I'm definitely not saying that the class is perfect or anything. But I honestly believe that the social identity is the most interesting part of the class as it stands, and the social identity needs access to super powers *at a cost* to actually be usable.

It doesn't have to be about protecting your loved ones - only yourself. See my example about a Zealot of a Good deity in Cheliax - perhaps in the Hell's Rebels AP. Not lighting up on detect good could literally be lifesaving.

I think the bigger issues with trying to make Social mode matter is that it 'splits the party'. Unless your entire party is Vigilantes, it can make it really hard to use both modes. It doesn't matter if the Avenger's loved ones are protected - because the Bard's aren't. It doesn't matter that the Zealot won't show up on detect or locate creature spells because the CG rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold does.

[negativeview]

Yeah, it can be about protecting yourself. I'm mostly trying to cover the most common/popular super heroes in order to have this class able to work for how most people are going to want to ues it. Ideally, of course, it'll be flexible enough to support more than JUST that. So let's look at the options from a super high stand point:

* Full Dual Identity, Costume - You have your Vigilante self and your Ordinary self. You could be trying to protect yourself or your loved ones. You likely have your full powers as Ordinary Person, but have some strong incentive not to use them when in that mode. Your Ordinary Self should provide some benefit (connections, ability to gather information your Vigilante self would find it hard to obtain, etc.). This variation doesn't want to actually lose their powers, but should be incentivized not to use them in Social.

* Non-Dual Identity. This is a Vigilante who is open about their alternate identity. The main one of course being Tony Stark/Iron Man. This variation should get no real benefit in social mode. Tony Stark's loved ones aren't protected from repurcussions innately, only because Iron Man would mess them up if anyone were that foolish. I want to say that they should have their powers in social mode, too, but the use of Iron Man as an iconic for this is awkward because he's actually just a normal human without his suit. Honestly though, this character is likely better built with another class and fluff about your non-super identity.

* Full Dual Identity, Separate - Shazam! The two identities are actually full on different people. This is the one case that works perfectly with the current system minus the switching speeds.

Are there other super-big-picture modes I'm missing?

[Salafax]

I think a great staple of super-hero stories is the protagonist being "stuck" in the middle of a crisis trying to be heroic while not giving his identity away.

I'm thinking of the Niagra Falls scene from Superman II (I know I'm dating myself). Or more recently, the opening of the Batman: Arkman City video game starts with Bruce Wayne (and other Gotham civilians) being captured by goons. Bruce (using his bat-training but not his batsuit/gadgets) manages to clandestinely crack craniums through the city until he can suit up.

So I would be more ok if there were some abilities that the social persona couldn't access, but there are some (like combat feats) it feels to me like they should be able to use all the time. When it his the fan in social persona, the PC shouldn't cringe that he's "powerless" but be excited to try to be victorious with his awesome social abilities.

I've posted this elsewhere but I think it would be cool if vigilantes got something similar to versatile performance where they could use social skills in social persona to be heroic while not drawing attention to themselves. Maybe that would be a good incentive to do more in social mode too. Might make for some fun/funny scenarios too. How about something like using Bluff in social mode for Acrobatics, Climb and Swim (watch that scene in Superman 2 too see what I mean)?

Anyway, just my 2 coppers.

[negativeview]

I fully agree, Salafax. In a perfect world, what you can and can't use in social mode should depend on exactly what thing you're talking about, and your exact character. Batman and Iron Man might be mechanically very similar, but their social aspect are worlds apart. Iron Man is open about who he is, and is mostly powerless in social mode, Batman is secret but still has his muscles and his brain, which is most of his powers.

The problem is that the Pathfinder system doesn't allow for that level of granularity. For a perfect character build sometimes you *should* lose access to your feat that you obtained at level 5, but you won't because that feat has nothing to do with the Avenger class. And sometimes your social identity should be mechanically identical to your Avenger identity (think Superman).

They can't and won't get it perfect. What perfect means is just too dependent on your character. I strongly believe that the default though should be to give access. I'm fully for an option you can take to give up access in social mode in exchange for some benefit (not sure what).