1st Character
Level: Rogue 14, Anti-paladin 2
Race: Halfling vampire
Str 12
Dex 37
Con -
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 22
AC 47 (Touch 27)
Attack bonus +25
Weapon +3 Viscious, unholy, keen, agile, good outsider bane Kukri Damage 1d4+26 with piranha stirke (7d6 snaek attack)
HP 182
Weapon finesse rogue, uses Offensive Defense to increase defense even higher (54 ac)
2nd Character
Level: Fighter 12, Ranger 2, Barbarian 2
Race: Orc Vampire
Str 32
Dex 22
Con -
Int 7
Wis 9
Cha 12
AC 55
Attack Bonus +30-35ish
HP 156
Sword and board two-weapon fighter
Campaign: Way of the Wicked (book 5)
*Sigh* Level 15+ is generally when players get ridiculous, I know this, but these two have gotten so strong i cant challenge them any more, the premade encounters are a joke and custom/enhanced encounters require CR 20+ to even matter (due to insane AC and high attack) Currently my answer to this has been control undead on the fighter and am now using him as a mind controlled villain, as the only thing strong enough to fight them is each other, advice on re balancing the game including means to destroy all the equipment they have would be much appreciated.
Can you give more detail on how they get these insanely high AC's and hit bonuses?
Is everyone having fun with the campaign? If so, just let them keep being awesome until you finish the books.
If not, maybe just talk to them about starting a new campaign at low level. Maybe these guys (being wicked and all) could become the main villains that the good guys need to find a way to stop (a long time from now, of course).
If you must challenge them with those characters, I'd say anything that targets will saves should be very effective against them.
Yeah, I think the builds look, uh, horrible to say the least. The issue seems to be:
Dex: 37
and
Str: 32
Dex: 22
How did these stats happen?
There is probably a bunch of reasons why their bonuses shouldn't even be that high, but honestly the answer is much easier.
They are vampires, exploit their weakness for all its worth.
A couple of decently optimizied same level cleric and druids can make volley of sunbeams and sunbursts that they should have around 50% chance of failing. Get like 3 of them casting and its game over. Sunbeam or sunburst destroys vampires on a failed safe and deals s%&~loads of damage if not (they double dip the spell weakness being undead that get affected by bright light).
You can also lower the cleric/druids levels a bit (just need lvl 13 for sunbeam) so you can increase the amount of them while keeping the same CR, though honestly you should launch least CR 20 stuff at just the 2 of them considering their levels plus being vampire. Consider that an easy encounter for them should be CR 19, around CR 22 if you want it to be a boss fight (assuming its only them, more if they have extra friends).
Certainly
Character 1
Defence
Armor +8(bracers of armor +8), Shield +2 (+1 light shield), Dex +13, Size 1, Dodge 1, Natural 9 (amulet of nat armor +5 & Vampire), Defelect 3 (ring of protection +3) 10 base =47 ac
Offensive Defence can raise this to 54 on a successful sneak attack, Smite good can raise it by 6 vs good enemies, and an occasional shield spell for another +2
Attack
BAB +12, Dex +13, +3 weapon, +1 size, -4 piranha strike = +25
Character 2
Armor +14 (mithril fullplate +5), Shield +8 (heavy steel shield +5), Dex +6, Dodge 1(dodge feat), Natural armor +11 (Amulet of nat armor +5 & vampire), Deflect +5 (Ring of protection+5) = 55 ac
Attack
BAB +16, Str +11, Weapon +5, Greater weapon focus +2 two-weapon fighting with shield mastery -2/-0 so main hand is +32 off hand is +34
Plus occasional Rage
For a Duo game...I would have imagined that they should be that strong.
Now then; if you want to challenge them, use the numbers advantage that they gave their enemies. Aid another requires targeting an AC of only 10, which gives the main enemy a +2 attk bonus. Several weaker enemies can do this, to give your enemies an ever increasing bonus to attack.
You are fighting martial characters, so use Spells to even the odds; Mirror image could give your prime opposition means of defending them, along with Displacement.
Mitrans can bring out strong Positive energy spells like Heal for a hard hit against them.
After that, I'd say take advantage of flight, protection from evil to make your npcs immune to mind-affecting domination, and use auto effect spells such as the lowly Magic Missile, or my favor against evil; Burst of Radiance.
Is everyone having fun with the campaign? If so, just let them keep being awesome until you finish the books.
If not, maybe just talk to them about starting a new campaign at low level. Maybe these guys (being wicked and all) could become the main villains that the good guys need to find a way to stop (a long time from now, of course).
If you must challenge them with those characters, I'd say anything that targets will saves should be very effective against them.
No they arnt but we wanna finish the adventure
There is probably a bunch of reasons why their bonuses shouldn't even be that high, but honestly the answer is much easier.
They are vampires, exploit their weakness for all its worth.
A couple of decently optimizied same level cleric and druids can make volley of sunbeams and sunbursts that they should have around 50% chance of failing. Get like 3 of them casting and its game over. Sunbeam or sunburst destroys vampires on a failed safe and deals s+*%loads of damage if not (they double dip the spell weakness being undead that get affected by bright light).
You can also lower the cleric/druids levels a bit (just need lvl 13 for sunbeam) so you can increase the amount of them while keeping the same CR, though honestly you should launch least CR 20 stuff at just the 2 of them considering their levels plus being vampire. Consider that an easy encounter for them should be CR 19, around CR 22 if you want it to be a boss fight (assuming its only them, more if they have extra friends).
Magic item introduced in the campaign makes them immune to the sun, i have dispelled it before and used it against them. also, i could just kill them in there sleep, but thats not exactly fun for any one
Also the rogue has a +32 reflex save
Magic item introduced in the campaign makes them immune to the sun, i have dispelled it before and used it against them. also, i could just kill them in there sleep, but thats not exactly fun for any one
Does it just protect them from the sun? Or does it remove their weakness entirely? If its the former, the sunburst spells should still work, its not killing them with regular sunlight, its divine enhanced rays that exploit their weakness if they have it. If the item removes the weakness, then it wont work. Depends on the exact effects of the item.
If you want to remove gear from as you said in the 1st post, there is alwasy disjunction and Anti-Magic Zone, they are high enough to encounter these.
Also, use mobile fights, neither seems like they have pounce or the like. Keep their opponents moving out of their range with diferent methods to limit their attacks.
Finally, there is always Tsunami to exploit the running water weakness unless they also got that covered.
I edited my previous post to include the +32 reflex save for the rogue, sun spells will never hit him
You didn't actually explain how 37 Dex happened. Nor how 32 Str and 22 Dex could. It sounds like you gave them really absurd stats.
Maybe just ask them to rebuild their characters to better work with the campaign. No vampire template, 25 PB (since there is only two of them), maybe gestalt, and average-above average wealth by level.
Certainly
Character 1
Defence
Armor +8(bracers of armor +8), Shield +2 (+1 light shield), Dex +13, Size 1, Dodge 1, Natural 9 (amulet of nat armor +5 & Vampire), Defelect 3 (ring of protection +3) 10 base =47 ac
Offensive Defence can raise this to 54 on a successful sneak attack, Smite good can raise it by 6 vs good enemies, and an occasional shield spell for another +2
Attack
BAB +12, Dex +13, +3 weapon, +1 size, -4 piranha strike = +25
Character 2
Armor +14 (mithril fullplate +5), Shield +8 (heavy steel shield +5), Dex +6, Dodge 1(dodge feat), Natural armor +11 (Amulet of nat armor +5 & vampire), Deflect +5 (Ring of protection+5) = 55 acAttack
BAB +16, Str +11, Weapon +5, Greater weapon focus +2 two-weapon fighting with shield mastery -2/-0 so main hand is +32 off hand is +34
Plus occasional Rage
There's some errors creepin in there. Mithral full plate max dex would be only +3, a +5 heavy steel shield is only +7, small kukri is 1d3, are some I see there.
Still don't know how he gets Dex 37.
Biggest weakness is their touch AC, player 1 touch is only 27, and player 2 touch is only 19 when you correct for the max dex.
I say Ranged Touch Attacks for Everyone!
Fighter's Armor Mastery raises the max DEX of the Fullpalte.
Biggest weakness is their touch AC
No, their biggest weaknesses are Will Saves. By my count, the Rogue has +13 (ok, not that bad, but 2 levels of Antipaladin with Charisma 22 is hard to get around), while the Fighter has +3 (plus whatever their Cloaks of Resistance grant). That's pretty insanely bad. Command Undead would completely own the Fighter, and that's only a 2nd level spell. Get a Dirge Bard or Undead Bloodline Sorcerer and they'll be putty in your hands.
We're all curious to find out how those stats came about. Please share the story... :D
Way of the Wicked is garbage encounters-wise after the templates come into play. The AP doesn't give any thought to adjusting for CR at all.
Though honestly, it's not much better without the Templates. It's just a really, really easy AP.
Scrap everything, re-write it from scratch. This is the reason our Way of the Wicked game collapsed after a while, the GM didn't want to have to rewrite half of an AP's encounters just to give us a slight challenge.
We're all curious to find out how those stats came about. Please share the story... :D
Templates give massive stat bonuses, especially the Vampire template(s).
Not much of a story.
Fighter's Armor Mastery raises the max DEX of the Fullpalte.
I saw shield master, didn't think about the armor mastery. Thanks!
No, their biggest weaknesses are Will Saves. By my count, the Rogue has +13 (ok, not that bad, but 2 levels of Antipaladin with Charisma 22 is hard to get around), while the Fighter has +3 (plus whatever their Cloaks of Resistance grant). That's pretty insanely bad. Command Undead would completely own the Fighter, and that's only a 2nd level spell. Get a Dirge Bard or Undead Bloodline Sorcerer and they'll be putty in your hands.
Yes, you're right, I was so stunned by the high Dex that I hadn't seen the low Wis for each of them. Between touch AC and poor Will saves, they can be hurt plenty from range.
Cleric with the Sun domain, Consecrate, Disrupt Undead, Scorching Ray, Searing Light, Holy Smite, Undeath to Death, ahhh good times.
Hes a Fighter, his max dex in increased for the full plate by 4
it was between 20 and 25 point buy (cant remember and its hard to reverse engineer with the time i have), vampire gives HUGE stat boosts, one has +5 from a tome, +6 dex from item, +4 cha from item, +4 from levels
Vampire Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an
undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
i dont have the others character sheet infront of me
it was between 20 and 25 point buy (cant remember and its hard to reverse engineer with the time i have), vampire gives HUGE stat boosts, one has +5 from a tome, +6 dex from item, +4 cha from item, +4 from levels
Vampire Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an
undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.i dont have the others character sheet infront of me
Well it sounds like you have your hands full, but everyone's given you some good ideas on how to at least make them squirm a bit.
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Magic Missile is only a 1st level spell that does xD4+x. Nothing super great at first sight, but you get 10 or so 5th level casters [push over CR at their level], you're looking at 30D4+30 in a round, before doing any meta magic feats or arcane school powers.
Red Jack...Magic Missile does not scale like that.
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile - two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
If it scaled as xd4+x I would Specialize and Perfection in Magic missiles. Dispel the Shield when needed and Unload with Dazing, Maximized, Empowered Magic Missiles as a 4th level spell. Yeah if MM scaled like that I would be one happy camper. Force damage FTW
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Not all of the nastiest spells even allow for a reflex save, your smart bet, since you allowed them to have those crazy ridiculous stats, is to start looking for spells that their lower stats won't allow them to overcome, and there are plenty of them. I'd also start looking for CR 18 - 20 creatures to throw at them, in place of those encounters, because otherwise, they will probably keep steamrolling through what you have going on right now. Polar Ray This is just one such spell that could help you out, no saves, only requires Spell Resistance and Ranged Touch to actually hit and for a bonus it does Dex Drain, which you need for that Rogue.
Vampires would be immune to the drain as a general FYI, being Undead,
Pretty much a "Monty Hall" campaign, feed your players unreasonable templates and insane wealth, this is what you get. +5 Tomb of dex is just handing the player "a new car". A +8 weapon that is custom built with no crafting feats isn't possible either and I am betting he has 2 and is duel wielding them. If these are characters brought into a game then your players are gaming the GM bad, if they grew into these monsters due to game progression, the GM did NOT follow the AP and there isn't really a way to fix it. You sow what you reap here.
So basically you gave them an overpowered template for free that makes them effectively mid tier, martial, epic characters and expensive magic items? The easiest solution is increment the encounters and nerf the template, but you could just make them fight harder things that don't do damage like epic level encounters.
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I have no advice on players that are too powerful.
Characters, however, are a more manageable issue.
My main issue is the money.
From what I've seen at a glance, these guys have:
+9 weapons (162,000 gp)
+5 tomes (127,500 gp...EACH)
+5 Shields (25,000 gp)
+5 Mithral Full Plate (~28,000 gp)
+5 Amulet of NA (50,000 gp)
+5 Ring of Deflection (50,000 gp)
That alone is over 400,000 gp, and well above the standard wealth by level (315,000 gp) for level 16 PCs.
Then there's the issue of templates (and of all templates, the Vampire one) which makes me wonder why you are running a premade campaign and expecting it to work in the first place.
The very least you can do is aim for their weaknesses as undead or their weaknesses in general, considering the low Will saves on both...(+4 at level 16? Seriously?)
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Here is the simple answer. Make up numbers for the bad guys.
A 'mook' should need a 15-17 or so to hit your best AC, so make sure they have around a +40 to hit bonus. Big bad melee guy should hit on a 5 or so with best attack, so that is around +50. Just make that happen. Similarly with AC, but in reverse.
Caster/Special ability creatures are a bit more complex, but figure out what % you want to succeed, and adjust the numbers accordingly.