My first thought was "he only does 35% of the constructs damage? What's wrong?"
And apparently the answer is, the GM let you make a construct that does as much or more damage than the rest of the party put together?
Yeah, that's a problem. Especially for the GM.
I could see the bloodrager player having a reaction along the lines of "you've had that thing the entire time? Why the hell am I even here?"
(And after checking that thread... your bloodrager has 160K worth of gear, and he only does 1/3rd its damage? What the hell did you make?)
The construct probably wouldn't be a big deal at higher levels because constructs have glass jaws, but busting out some sort of 300 DPR mega punching robo at L7 kind of screws up everything.
That right there might be the problem. You've been sitting in the back, quietly working on building this golem and no one in your party knew about it until now? How long did it take you in game to make this thing? You never once mentioned it? They never once noticed you disappearing into your workshop for long hours? That's all perfectly fine. But that means you've been building a giant surprise for your party this entire time. It shouldn't be that big of stretch to see that some people are going to react poorly to that. Especially the one guy who your secret impacts the most.
It wasnt even like that. Yeah ive been on my ass, but we've had alot of travel time in game, which gives me alot of time to craft, which is very useful for me. The power of the guy was a bit of a shock, but it wasnt supposed to step on toes. His purpose, even in my pitch of him i said, this is a big body that will make sure my sorry ass doesnt bite the dust in this fight against this Dragon.
The rager in terms of gameplay always runs up to the first thing, buffing as he goes, then swings. So i guess he assumed thats what i would do with it too. Thats not how i play, not even a little.
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That right there might be the problem. You've been sitting in the back, quietly working on building this golem and no one in your party knew about it until now? How long did it take you in game to make this thing? You never once mentioned it? They never once noticed you disappearing into your workshop for long hours? That's all perfectly fine. But that means you've been building a giant surprise for your party this entire time. It shouldn't be that big of stretch to see that some people are going to react poorly to that. Especially the one guy who your secret impacts the most.It wasnt even like that. Yeah ive been on my ass, but we've had alot of travel time in game, which gives me alot of time to craft, which is very useful for me. The power of the guy was a bit of a shock, but it wasnt supposed to step on toes. His purpose, even in my pitch of him i said, this is a big body that will make sure my sorry ass doesnt bite the dust in this fight against this Dragon.
The rager in terms of gameplay always runs up to the first thing, buffing as he goes, then swings. So i guess he assumed thats what i would do with it too. Thats not how i play, not even a little.
Of course crafting is useful to you. That's sort of your character concept. So i'm sure your party knows that you craft a lot. But did they know you were building this specific golem? Or did they just assume you were building some minor small stuff like more scouts, or some alchemical weapons or such? It's not like you're churning our a giant golem like this every session. Your party probably wasn't even aware you could do something like this. So to them it's a giant surprise. People handle surprises in a multitude of ways. You're now seeing that first hand.
A tiny bit of communication can go along way in these sorts of situations. If you had RPed a few instances during your travels, you could have dribbled out little bits of information ahead of time. At the very least your party could have known you were working on something "big". The level of surprise wouldn't have been nearly as high, and you may have received a completely different set of reactions.
Your path is set at this point. You're going to have to play that next session and see how it all actually goes. Chalk this up as a learning experience in effective roleplayer communication and go smash a dragon!
Your path is set at this point. You're going to have to play that next session and see how it all actually goes. Chalk this up as a learning experience in effective roleplayer communication and go smash a dragon!
Thanks man
And sorry everyone that this turned into a little of a drama fest. I've never had really any problems with players before, but being this is our first campaign together, i dont really know how he plays very well. I coulda done things differently in hindsight, and ill work on that. Thanks for all the great advice
edit:
But actions speak louder than words, and your actions were to ignore the given advice. You were outright warned not to do what you did. Anyone who considers your actions and your situation for five minutes could tell you the results, which are exactly what happened. If you were reading that thread and understanding it, there's no way that you couldn't have known what would happen.
I am ganna do all that, i was asking for help making a plan, and i have a plan. Im still doing that, this was one session worth of crafting i put into making a bodyguard for my PC.
recap: it hasnt even been played yet, hasnt hit the field.
They were just suprised about the raw numbers, and im using what im given.
So what is this things statblock?
It's a modded verson of this. It has more armor, DR and Resists using CP mods. Aswell as basic wep mods. But literally all it is, is this basic template, with some DR. Thats all it is. Its the least complicated thing my guy is capable of, i mean its just a basic animated object. Due to its size though, he does quite a bit of damage if allowed a full round, which is why this whole thread got kicked up
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Beginning Players who roll up Martial powerhouses Run the game from Level 1-7 But when a Full cast like a wizard comes online they need to know they will be out paced and out played.
You waited your turn and let him get his character going. He fulfilled his role...but the game is swinging towards game altering spells.
This is not your problem...it is his lack of foresight and understanding of the game. While you where ducking falling Leaves early levels he was winning fights with his damage and brute strength. Now the tables are turned and he is more of a distraction that can damage and kill a foe after you the Wizard have weakened it enough for him to fight it.
You should NEVER nerf your character because some shitty martial gets his panties in a bunch because he feels useless next to a Wizard which is the most powerful Late game Class in Pathfinder. You should explain that Wizards become Gods in their own right compared to people who swing sticks for a living.
You waited your turn and let him get his character going. He fulfilled his role...but the game is swinging towards game altering spells.
This is his first campaign playing, he's played two characters in it. A twf ranger, then the Rager when he got bored. He's a smart dude, and is learning quickly, but i feel bad cause he really has been the highest damage in terms of single target for a while. But its apparant recently that the Shaman and me are just scaling better due to how the game works for full casters
(not to mention the money again, but this has really caused a rift in balance that i dont think the GM was expecting. He just wanted us to have an interesting fresh campaign, bless him)
It's a modded verson of this. It has more armor, DR and Resists using CP mods. Aswell as basic wep mods. But literally all it is, is this basic template, with some DR. Thats all it is. Its the least complicated thing my guy is capable of, i mean its just a basic animated object. Due to its size though, he does quite a bit of damage if allowed a full round, which is why this whole thread got kicked up
How about doing what you wanted, a big meat shield? Take away all but like 1 slam attack. Now he's a big thing to stop stuff from getting to you as you hide behind it, but isn't doing more damage than 3 bloodragers. How many craft points did you use? What's the effective CR of your creature?
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Yeah I can understand his Salty feelings.
But you full casters is what wins the Late game. He needs to let yall do your thing as well Because you did not have this opportunity in the lower levels. Your characters are coming into power.
This is a good Learning lesson for him. He should also learn to browse the forums and read some guides...Expand his out of game knowledge might help him come to terms with this power shift.
I'd really like to see the statblock for this juggernautank, I'm thinking of making something similar since our group is lacking in frontliners.
I'm mildly curious at best. Breaking the game with constructs using a huge amount of gold beyond WBL doesn't need a lot of sysyem mastery. Just a lenient GM that gives you a lot of gold
I'm mildly curious at best. Breaking the game with constructs using a huge amount of gold beyond WBL doesn't need a lot of sysyem mastery. Just a lenient GM that gives you a lot of gold
Exactly. This PC plan was merely supposed to be flavor when i made it. I was just trying to fit a sort of style i had in my head, and rp the hell out of it. I just so happened to make it functional and operational at lvl 7, and wamm the GM gives us an absurd amount of gold.
He has been planning and playing this campaign for months, its actually really cool. Its been played since lvl 1. I love the world he is building. Its fantastic, the characters, the nations, the leaders, the whole thing. But he said he wanted it sandboxy, and this is what he came up with. He wanted a PC driven story
Great, if it works. I'm not sure it's workng, if you have right now the equivalent of a party worth of CR by yourself and you have one of your players (rightfully) angry. I don't augur a long term success for the campaign going forward, if you ask me.
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The one mistake you made that I can see is that you were discussing max damage if all attacks hit.
Now, had you given the actual DPR (which takes into account average damage, AC, crits, and other factors), then it wouldn't have sounded so horrendously powerful, and likely wouldn't have landed you where you are.
But that's it. That's all you did wrong. Your friend needs to grow up.
The one mistake you made that I can see is that you were discussing max damage if all attacks hit.
Now, had you given the actual DPR (which takes into account average damage, AC, crits, and other factors), then it wouldn't have sounded so horrendously powerful, and likely wouldn't have landed you where you are.
But that's it. That's all you did wrong. Your friend needs to grow up.
I have to agree with this. A few months back one of my players voted against adding the Path of War book to our list of approved 3PP books for our table. His reason was that the classes are overpowered; He determined this by looking only at max damage rather than taking into account the classes reduced chance to hit compared to a fighter or barbarian.
Average damage is a much better comparison of damage output, since it takes into account the chance to hit and other variables.
So how did you get an animated object with DR? Because there is no CP mod that gives DR that I can find. There is no construct modification I can find that gives DR. If you mean hardness that's a completely different thing. Also, if you're using mithral or adamantine the cost of the base object you're animating goes up by the amount necessary to make the object out of that material. So I'm pretty sure you made some mistake in the legality or cost of your construct, honestly.
I miss-spoke. When i say DR i mean hardness. Yes i did make it out of adam, and have taken all the pricing and materials into account. Mind you this is a pretty basic bot, in terms of what it can do, but it was still expensive and took a HELL of a long time to craft. (25+days of full crafting WITH arcane builder feat)
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Craft (anything) is broken and people gets upset when someone brings them to the table.
Whoop-dee-freaking-doo.
Like, noone ever said that before in the history of Pathfinder.
If you plan on not upsetting people, don't chose broken stuff like crafting feats or thing like leadership. If you actually don't give two hoots about it and do it anyway, then don't be surprised when people actually do.
And don't try to pass up minmaxing a construct as an rp choice.
Now I'm curious about the stats AND price of the thing
The one mistake you made that I can see is that you were discussing max damage if all attacks hit.
Now, had you given the actual DPR (which takes into account average damage, AC, crits, and other factors), then it wouldn't have sounded so horrendously powerful, and likely wouldn't have landed you where you are.
But that's it. That's all you did wrong. Your friend needs to grow up.
I have to agree with this. A few months back one of my players voted against adding the Path of War book to our list of approved 3PP books for our table. His reason was that the classes are overpowered; He determined this by looking only at max damage rather than taking into account the classes reduced chance to hit compared to a fighter or barbarian.
Average damage is a much better comparison of damage output, since it takes into account the chance to hit and other variables.
A lot of people make this mistake with Path of War.
"OMG! Broken Blade can add 8d6 to all my weapon attacks! OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP!!!!!!11one!!eleven!!"
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And don't try to pass up minmaxing a construct as an rp choice.
But it was. I wanted to have objects be my weapon. I wanted to play something different this time. A sort of -semi- pet class so to speak. I was torn between Broodmaster Summoner and a crafting wizard spellslinger. But being the type of player i am, or being competent if you wanna put it rudely like that, i made it functonal. Obviously crafting feats are really good, and theres a reason alot of GM's choose to not allow them in there games, but being in contact with him alot, i was able to constantly ask him what he would/and would not allow.
Things just worked out the way they did, and any relatively experienced or versed player can understand where im coming from. A melee martial class being out scaled by a wizard is nothing new.. on top of that, he doesnt rp at all. Like i said, he only pipes up for fights, which is fine. Its how he wants to play. Dont say it wasnt an rp choice. Thats all it was for me
The one mistake you made that I can see is that you were discussing max damage if all attacks hit.
Now, had you given the actual DPR (which takes into account average damage, AC, crits, and other factors), then it wouldn't have sounded so horrendously powerful, and likely wouldn't have landed you where you are.
But that's it. That's all you did wrong. Your friend needs to grow up.
I have to agree with this. A few months back one of my players voted against adding the Path of War book to our list of approved 3PP books for our table. His reason was that the classes are overpowered; He determined this by looking only at max damage rather than taking into account the classes reduced chance to hit compared to a fighter or barbarian.
Average damage is a much better comparison of damage output, since it takes into account the chance to hit and other variables.
A lot of people make this mistake with Path of War.
"OMG! Broken Blade can add 8d6 to all my weapon attacks! OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP!!!!!!11one!!eleven!!"
Pretty much. If you're routinely doing 5d10, you have a max damage of 50. If I'm routine doing 1d4 + 46, my max damage is also 50. But there's a distinct difference between the two, especially if I also have a better chance to hit.
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Craft (anything) is broken and people gets upset when someone brings them to the table.
Whoop-dee-freaking-doo.Like, noone ever said that before in the history of Pathfinder.
If you plan on not upsetting people, don't chose broken stuff like crafting feats or thing like leadership. If you actually don't give two hoots about it and do it anyway, then don't be surprised when people actually do.
And don't try to pass up minmaxing a construct as an rp choice.
That's a bad argument. If you as a player are told "here are the available options for making your character" you shouldn't have to guess which ones are in fact NOT legal because they were shadow banned or trap options or violate the secret gentlemens agreement you didn't know you were a part of. That's just silly.
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melee martial class being out scaled by a wizard is nothing new.. on top of that, he doesnt rp at all. Like i said, he only pipes up for fights, which is fine. Its how he wants to play. Dont say it wasnt an rp choice. Thats all it was for me
It's nothing new, but it's a problem you're clearly aware of.
Taking steps to not only outclass him in every OTHER way, but the ONE THING (by your own admission) that he actually enjoys doing and being the best at is just being a prick, and there's no getting around that.
If you wanted to be a Minion Master you could have very easily whipped up a small army of weaker constructs, leaving him to still have the highest single target, single character damage in the group.
If it was just for RP, that's what you would have done. You would have made a squad of some interesting, yet reasonably powerful golems like Mithral Golems (which at level 7 may as well be indestructible, but have a meh damage output), or your very own Frankenstein's Monster (Flesh Golem), or really anything else besides an Animated Object that does its best impression of Ball of F!$!ing Arms Man in a clear attempt to deliberately marginalize another player.
Accept you did wrong, move on, and stop looking for people to validate your mistakes. It's really the best way.
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The one mistake you made that I can see is that you were discussing max damage if all attacks hit.
Now, had you given the actual DPR (which takes into account average damage, AC, crits, and other factors), then it wouldn't have sounded so horrendously powerful, and likely wouldn't have landed you where you are.
But that's it. That's all you did wrong. Your friend needs to grow up.
Actually, the friend should dump his martial and play a full-caster so that he can keep on ruling the game ;-)
Taking steps to not only outclass him in every OTHER way, but the ONE THING (by your own admission) that he actually enjoys doing and being the best at is just being a prick, and there's no getting around that.
I think you arnt really understanding what started this whole thing.
recap: HE HASNT HIT THE FIELD
Im not stealing anyones thunder, i made a beefcake to make sure i dont get torched. HE was the one that added up all the numbers and compared. He turned it into a contest. Im not a prick, and both these threads have been made with the intent of maintaining harmony with the other players in the group. If nothing else, that should atleast show you im trying to make this work.
So you're going to tone down your tank then? Maybe make him more defensive and be the flank partner for the rager?
Yeah ill tone it down obviously, but in terms of gameplay i was thinking something different. The whole point of beefcake here was to be my guard, and i stay at a distance, so he'll stay with me. Im ganna make a tanky/fast flanker in the future as well as other support bots with SLA and such. This is just the beginning, but in hindsight i shoulda started with other stuff stead of this one
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So you're going to tone down your tank then? Maybe make him more defensive and be the flank partner for the rager?
I mean, if nothing else drop the extra attacks so he only has the basic single slam.
I know, seems like an easy solution. Adding an extra attack is PURPOSEFULLY making it an offensive beast instead of a beefcake. And from the sounds of it you went with the maximum possible amount of slams. If a beefcake can out dpr a bloodrager then it's more of an angry bull. Is there a reason you haven't shared your actual golem?
Taking steps to not only outclass him in every OTHER way, but the ONE THING (by your own admission) that he actually enjoys doing and being the best at is just being a prick, and there's no getting around that.I think you arnt really understanding what started this whole thing.
recap: HE HASNT HIT THE FIELD
Im not stealing anyones thunder, i made a beefcake to make sure i dont get torched. HE was the one that added up all the numbers and compared. He turned it into a contest. Im not a prick, and both these threads have been made with the intent of maintaining harmony with the other players in the group. If nothing else, that should atleast show you im trying to make this work.
Quite a few people here seem to think it would be a problem if it did hit the field. (I'm one of them, based on how I'd feel in as similar a position as I feel I would be likely to find myself in.) At the very least, that means that his view isn't entirely unreasonable. It hasn't hit the field, so you've got a fantastic chance to fix it if you want. Maybe build the whole thing, but talk with the GM about scaling the golem with your level up until the version you paid for. That can be flavored as "tinkering"- a great roleplay opportunity. Keep its advancement below that of the Bloodrager, and try to keep the peace by going in with a little more apology than you think is fair. See if there's a way to keep average damage while lowering max damage so it doesn't look as bad to a new player- and make sure the average damage is reasonable to be carting around on top of your wizardly powers.
That would be my approach in the situation. I've done things like pass up the bonus attack from Haste when my character was overshadowing other people's, and it's worked out well.
EDIT: Sorry, bit of ninja'ing there, since you said you were going to tone it down some.
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Taking steps to not only outclass him in every OTHER way, but the ONE THING (by your own admission) that he actually enjoys doing and being the best at is just being a prick, and there's no getting around that.I think you arnt really understanding what started this whole thing.
recap: HE HASNT HIT THE FIELD
What's your point?
"I haven't dicked him over YET"?
Good for you?
Im not stealing anyones thunder, i made a beefcake to make sure i dont get torched. HE was the one that added up all the numbers and compared. He turned it into a contest. Im not a prick, and both these threads have been made with the intent of maintaining harmony with the other players in the group. If nothing else, that should atleast show you im trying to make this work.
You can SAY that, but actions speak louder than words.
Words: I just want somebody to be a meatshield to stop me from dying.
Action: Loads of DPS lel
Words: I wish to maintain harmony.
Action: I have specifically made a thing that makes another player's character pointless. Because I can.
Words: I'm trying to make this work.
Action: ...Out best for me.
Laziness. Here he is
Animated Object - Huge
HP - 7d10+40
AC - 21 (15 base + 6 metal CP)
str: 30 dex: 6 BAB: 7
CP mods: +5slams = 6 slams total
-metal (6) adam hard 20
-resist energy (8) all 4 resists = 5
-increased melee dmg (1)
Wep mods(basic modification)
-scizore on all slams
Now, i did make him tank as you see. I cant increase his HP yet, due to the fact im CL 7, meaning 7HD cap atm. I made him as tough as i could, which is a total of 14 CP points purely spent on that. I only added 6 CP points of offense due to the fact they are crazy effiecient for what they give you.
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A melee martial class being out scaled by a wizard is nothing new..
Of course it's not. Nobody says it's not that way. Any wizard of your level, with the amount of gold your GM gave you, can buy a (several) scroll of simulacrum CL 15th and have a 15hd version of the Tarrasque (or an army of them) for a minuscule price, 7500gp (each). I'm not sure yet how good your animated object is, but hey, 7500gp for a colossal bodyguard with 6 attacks, str 41, AC 40, regeneration 40, inmunity to spells and 250hp sounds nice at your level. And that's being generous and not wanting to start an argument with your GM about simulacrums of creatures with Wish SLA that cast wish of simulacrum and start a chain reaction that destroy the cosmic balance. Just being "boring" and create simulacra of non-SLA creatures, having your own army of 15 HD Tarrasques.
The question is not if you can, as a wizard, completely overshadow everybody and break the game and destroy the balance of the universe. Of course you can. The question is if you want and more importantly, if you should
Beyond that, a few things you have said in this thread (starting by the title, "somebody feels special", and finishing for this "on top of that, he doesnt rp at all. Like i said, he only pipes up for fights, which is fine." and some other passive aggressive things you have said, I think it's clear for me that there's not a problem about your character and his character. It's a problem about him and you. So maybe you should talk about it with him.
Is there no other way to up that AC? 21 at 7th level is a punching bag, only saved by that hardness.
Craft magic armor, i can mod his ac with enhancements and other stuff
Is there no other way to up that AC? 21 at 7th level is a punching bag, only saved by that hardness.
Pretty sure he could slap a Huge sized Breastplate on it or something.
Words: I wish to maintain harmony.
Action: I have specifically made a thing that makes another player's character pointless. Because I can.
My intent was never to "dick him over." this thread was started due to the fact he TOOK it like that. I was NEVER GOING TO REPLACE HIS ROLE at all.
Actually, I'm wondering why the AC is as high as it is between the size huge and Dex 6.
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CAPS ARE FUN!!
Actually, I'm wondering why the AC is as high as it is between the size huge and Dex 6.
15 base huge animated object + 6 nat armor from 6points of metal CP mod
Wow.
Okay, I am going to side with your fellow player on this one. According to the construct construction rules, that's CR 15. I mean, I know that's not actually CR 15, but he has an awful lot of CP. You spent more CP on offense than it's supposed to have total for a CR of your level.
Laziness. Here he is
** spoiler omitted **
Now, i did make him tank as you see. I cant increase his HP yet, due to the fact im CL 7, meaning 7HD cap atm. I made him as tough as i could, which is a total of 14 CP points purely spent on that. I only added 6 CP points of offense due to the fact they are crazy effiecient for what they give you.
So take off the last three rows and all the extra slam and you should be good! Heck probably just taking off all the extra slams would work fine, so his one hit can still be decent.
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When I DM I create the standards by which characters are created which sets a precident for what sorts of characters WILL be created. But the rules are BIG. You have to pay attention to what the party is making. Ultimately, nothing gets into the game I don't allow. Now I'm not all that draconian so most things are allowed. But if I see a power desparity I sure as hell wouldn't blame my players. Now personally I don't think damage is a role and thus nt something I care one bit to protect, but if it's an issue for the other player the DM should have interejcted. "Yes, it is legal and I allowed it. Here are a number of solutions. Let's figure this out." But this idea that we all hold the player accountable for building a character he was told would be okay is rediculous.