Use Lock Gaze.
If the target fails the save, then they'll be forced to look at you for the duration of the spell. This gives all of your teammates concealment.
Cavall wrote: kestral287 wrote: Cavall wrote: kestral287 wrote: Cavall wrote: Jump over to duelist if you're really looking to be unhittable For what? Riposte? Not really a great investment five levels down the line. D: Was more referring to the adding of int to ac as a dodge bonus. Which would stack with the kensai. Since you're going to have an int of let's say
.. +7 or so, you could balance it with 7 levels of ac from the other class. Turns your Dex based int caster into like a 45 while naked with just some bracers and a ring before you're even 15th level. That's a decent tank. Yeah, that doesn't work. Channel FAQ, general rule: "unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately"
Canny Defense "adds in some way based on the character's total class level". Duelist 7/Kensai 7 with 7 Int gets +7 Dodge bonus to AC. Kensai 14 also gets +7 Dodge bonus to AC, but with class abilities that are actually helpful. Dodge bonus stacks. Always has. Also one specifically says "adds your level on this class" and the other specifically says "adds your level IN THIS class" both as a dodge bonus. TOTALLY stacks. Nobody is telling you that Dodge bonuses don't stack.
But when the rule says "if they add based on your total class levels, combine them", and you are telling me that both abilities add based on your total class levels... well.
But frankly even if you could double-dip Canny Defense Duelist would be an atrociously bad investment for a Kensai. You could try to make some sort of Parry build work by Hasting yourself, then giving up your first two attacks and banking solely on a Spellstrike swing to actually contribute offensively, then banking on things being willing to aim at you through your hilarious AC after you've rendered yourself a nonentity offensively so you can Parry a few times (twice, unless you're willing to burn off a day-limited resource that's not easily renewable and you're sacrificing points in) and land a couple Ripostes... okay. You could skip the Parry investment, and just deal with possessing ludicrously underpowered spells in exchange for a small AC bonus... but it's not going to come out ahead for you anyway.
Or, instead of Kensai 8/Duelist 5 or the like you could be a Kensai 13 and be a credible offensive threat-- that's what makes the tanking work.
I'd frankly love to see how you'd build this to be effective. Really I would.
Quote: But when the rule says "if they add based on your total class levels, combine them", and you are telling me that both abilities add based on your total class levels... well. This is not what the rules say.
The rules say that untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack.
Typed bonuses stack or not depending to their type. Sacred bonuses don't stack. Dodge bonuses, regardless of source, stack.
Hope this clears this up for you.
The last character i played was a Kensai with Flamboyant Arcana and he was the tankiest character in the Party. DEX for hit/damage/AC, INT for more AC and spells. Pearls of Power are a must though! Keep up Mirror Image and try to have a Windy Escape at the ready in case they get through your illusions. Shield is nice if you have the time but in my experience there usually isnt the chance for it. Mirror image and off to the front!
Well Kestral287 you can pepper how much of each one you like. But dodge bonuses stack as secret wizard points out rather well.
It's a solid tank build with great movement and ability to act when others can't. There is some cost I won't argue. But that's the cost of focusing in one area.
But this wasn't about attacks it was about tanks and that's what I focused on.
Used effectively? Well actually it's based on the fact that enemies don't know your ac until they try. Which makes you a caster with no armour. If I told you a guy with cloth armour just cast lightning bolt and stood front line, are you telling me you wouldn't try to attack him? As a pc? Let alone as a creature?
Of course you would. And you'd miss and that's tanking. You wouldn't even be told the AC just that you missed.
You're thinking that there a sign above his head saying "He has AC of 43." He doesn't.
Not to sound condescending if I am. Just that good guys aren't obligated to tell bad guys their stats just as much as the reverse.
Then I honestly would walk past you. They have an INCREDIBLE AoO AC, so wasting your attacks on me allows the rest of my party to move around with no concern about you attacking them for taking provoking actions.
That means I've now double tanked.
That's pretty good. And the party is now in position to flank, cast or whatever and I'm in the center instead of a more vulnerable person.
That's about it. People attack cloth wearing casters and I'd use that to my advantage.
I actually prefer Kensai + Student of War for INT-to-AC stacking.
Secret Wizard wrote: Quote: But when the rule says "if they add based on your total class levels, combine them", and you are telling me that both abilities add based on your total class levels... well. This is not what the rules say.
The rules say that untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack.
Typed bonuses stack or not depending to their type. Sacred bonuses don't stack. Dodge bonuses, regardless of source, stack.
Hope this clears this up for you. The rule I'm pointing at is the Channel Energy FAQ. I quoted it earlier in the thread.
It's a question of how the abilities stack, not if they stack (because you're right-- Dodge bonuses stack). Based on that FAQ, they should stack to determine your maximum allowable Dodge bonus. I.E., a Kensai 10 and a Kensai 8/Duelist 2, assuming a +10 Int mod, would both gain a +10 dodge bonus. But with a +9 Int mod, they'd both gain a +9 dodge bonus, instead of the Kensai 10 getting a +9 and the Kensai 8/Duelist 2 getting (+8+2=+10).
Cavall wrote: Used effectively? Well actually it's based on the fact that enemies don't know your ac until they try. Which makes you a caster with no armour. If I told you a guy with cloth armour just cast lightning bolt and stood front line, are you telling me you wouldn't try to attack him? As a pc? Let alone as a creature?
Of course you would. And you'd miss and that's tanking. You wouldn't even be told the AC just that you missed.
You're thinking that there a sign above his head saying "He has AC of 43." He doesn't.
Not to sound condescending if I am. Just that good guys aren't obligated to tell bad guys their stats just as much as the reverse.
Not condescending-- but you apparently didn't read all of the last post, where I pointed to the importance of a credible offense to performing as a tank.
To return the question: If two guys without armor shoot a lightning bolt at you, which one do you go for-- the guy whose lightning bolt did 10D6, or the guy whose lightning bolt did 5D6, or even 8D6?
You probably go for the one with a more credible offense, right? The lower your offensive presence the easier you are to ignore, and Duelist levels directly reduce your offensive presence.
And more over: they do that in favor of intangible or even negative gains, given your goal. Yeah, sure, as a Duelist you can make more AoOs, riposte, and you have a higher AC, but literally all three of those directly discourage attacking. The more defensively capable you are the more offensively capable you need to be to match. The way that the Kensai X build draws fire is with high initiative, rapid mobility, and more than anything else, being too dangerous to ignore.
The way that the Kensai X/Duelist Y draws fire is the same way, only they're harder to hit (with a generous rules assumption) and easier to ignore. That's not a good combination for being effective.
Yeah, which was my point about boosting AC though. It's a slow climb. Oh but duelist gives some cool boosts to AC here and there too that help.
You will of course have to go dervish for it to work best. (I've found). But that helps settle your concern of "does this help tank" since your low level spells will be maxed out for damage by then, and you'll actually enjoy a boost to BAB that the magus sorely needs. Also adding more to damage by way of precision.
It's a decent build, Kestral. Not the holy god nova that you'd expect but with most assured hit and that means more assured crit. And all with a strong durability too. Decent trade off for some few caster levels.
kestral287 wrote: Cavall wrote: Used effectively? Well actually it's based on the fact that enemies don't know your ac until they try. Which makes you a caster with no armour. If I told you a guy with cloth armour just cast lightning bolt and stood front line, are you telling me you wouldn't try to attack him? As a pc? Let alone as a creature?
Of course you would. And you'd miss and that's tanking. You wouldn't even be told the AC just that you missed.
You're thinking that there a sign above his head saying "He has AC of 43." He doesn't.
Not to sound condescending if I am. Just that good guys aren't obligated to tell bad guys their stats just as much as the reverse.
Not condescending-- but you apparently didn't read all of the last post, where I pointed to the importance of a credible offense to performing as a tank.
To return the question: If two guys without armor shoot a lightning bolt at you, which one do you go for-- the guy whose lightning bolt did 10D6, or the guy whose lightning bolt did 5D6, or even 8D6?
You probably go for the one with a more credible offense, right? The lower your offensive presence the easier you are to ignore, and Duelist levels directly reduce your offensive presence.
And more over: they do that in favor of intangible or even negative gains, given your goal. Yeah, sure, as a Duelist you can make more AoOs, riposte, and you have a higher AC, but literally all three of those directly discourage attacking. The more defensively capable you are the more offensively capable you need to be to match. The way that the Kensai X build draws fire is with high initiative, rapid mobility, and more than anything else, being too dangerous to ignore.
The way that the Kensai X/Duelist Y draws fire is the same way, only they're harder to hit (with a generous rules assumption) and easier to ignore. That's not a good combination for being effective. You're not counting dice as an attack your counting total. And knowing one bolt did 9d6 vs 8d6 because you took 31 not 33 (as an example) is pretty odd.
But as I pointed out your also more mobile (and as such a threat to their casters and healers) you're more likely to hit (higher bab) and likely to crit ( for same reason). Your hits will also do some strong boosts due to precision damage being increased by critical hits so you're also doing some decent damage just by using your keen scimitar.
I would add I'd likely go only to about 5 or 6. Riposte and charging is cool enough. But you'd still max that bolt out well enough, and there's some feats to help boost up lost caster levels.
I will totally recommend a ring of wizard too.
But no, I think with a boosted bab and some base weapon damage it's worth the trade off to be able to run into the middle and start attacking softer targets. The AC is just there to allow you to do it. No matter what the class is, once it's hitting your wizard or oracle you'll want to focus on that, so this is a very effective tank.
If you just stand there and laugh out loud and dare them to hit you then yes I agree it's not a good tank. None would be. But hey, this is an Int based class.
Cavall wrote: I would add I'd likely go only to about 5 or 6. Riposte and charging is cool enough. But you'd still max that bolt out well enough, and there's some feats to help boost up lost caster levels. Depends on when you go into the Duelist. I think the earliest is Kensai 7? Don't have it up right now so feel free to correct me. In that case-- you actually can't max the baseline offense, for five or six levels, even after you burn the trait. You'd have to burn two feats, which is kind of a lot of build emphasis at this point. Longer if you decide to burn another feat or two on boosting it. But it means more than the few dice; I was trying to simplify to a direct comparison.
But in reality? The difference between 3rd and 4th level spells is pretty broad for a Magus-- they get a ton of good control options at 4th. They might not notice the lightning bolts (or realistically, Intensified Shocking Grasps), but they'll certainly notice that one guy is making evil doom tentacles erupt from the ground and the other... isn't. And you're going to hit that difference pretty quick.
kestral287 wrote: Secret Wizard wrote: Quote: But when the rule says "if they add based on your total class levels, combine them", and you are telling me that both abilities add based on your total class levels... well. This is not what the rules say.
The rules say that untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack.
Typed bonuses stack or not depending to their type. Sacred bonuses don't stack. Dodge bonuses, regardless of source, stack.
Hope this clears this up for you. The rule I'm pointing at is the Channel Energy FAQ. I quoted it earlier in the thread.
It's a question of how the abilities stack, not if they stack (because you're right-- Dodge bonuses stack). Based on that FAQ, they should stack to determine your maximum allowable Dodge bonus. I.E., a Kensai 10 and a Kensai 8/Duelist 2, assuming a +10 Int mod, would both gain a +10 dodge bonus. But with a +9 Int mod, they'd both gain a +9 dodge bonus, instead of the Kensai 10 getting a +9 and the Kensai 8/Duelist 2 getting (+8+2=+10). Kensai 8/Duelist 2 with +9 INT mod would get +10 dodge AC. Kenny adds +8, Duelist adds +2. Canny Defense does not stack.
True. But having tentacles (an issue of itself) vs having some guy jump over your head and cut your wizard in twain means you're going to have different priorities.
I mean, let's be honest here. The magus tank with your arguments is never valid because it's a tank. You don't hit tanks so how could any tank be valid?
I'm just pointing out that mines a better tank and you won't know so long as you test it. And fail. Because you DONT know it's a tank until you swing At a guy in cloth and miss. And even then you're going to try again.
I'd personally go in about 8. So you'd have the 3rd level spell to count on. You'll have a strong Int (obviously since it helps both ways) and that means one level 3 spell in a fight. Kensai aren't mega casters but we both know that.
Cavall wrote: True. But having tentacles (an issue of itself) vs having some guy jump over your head and cut your wizard in twain means you're going to have different priorities.
I mean, let's be honest here. The magus tank with your arguments is never valid because it's a tank. You don't hit tanks so how could any tank be valid?
... Hrm. I'm not sure that what I'm (thinking I'm) typing is what you're reading.
First off: straight Kensai should be basically as effective at jumping over things and cutting the Wizard in twain. More effective, really, since while you're taking Duelist levels they're learning teleporting full attacks. BAB difference is going to be really negligible, and the feat tax to hit Duelist (as I believe it requires Mobility?) means he can counteract it anyway.
Second off: my argument is that you have to have a credible offense and a strong defense both to be a tank, and anything that detracts from offense to favor defense on a build that already has those defenses isn't going to help matters much. The loss outweighs the gains.
I just feel having a higher BAB and a small boost to base weapon damage means you'll hit more often, crit more and do more (with those shocking grasps) while critting.
Which I felt was a balance for offense. You and I can both agree that BAB is a major weakness for a melee caster that takes penalties to do his job. Adding in an extra point every few levels is a big deal.
To me, the opposite is true. I feel there is equal or more gain. But it's a matter or taste and it's not going to be mind blowing for the few levels investment.
shroudb wrote: you even quoted it.
first part:
you take only a -2 penalty on attack rolls when fighting defensivly (no requirement to have the style active)
IF you have the style active AND you fight defensivly you gain an additional +1 to dodge ac.
So by that logic neither Jabbing style nor Kobold Style should even be style feats, as nothing in it's benefit specifically states that it has to be using the style:
shroudb wrote: but there is a clear distinction with out of style, and in style effects written in entirely different sentances of the feat descriptions. But they are all listed under the Benefit section of the feat. Additionally, you can't use a style feat before combat begins, so you would only get the benefit of monkey style while in combat. Nor would you benefit from Crane style in some hypothetical corner case in which you could take fight defensively before combat starts.
shroudb wrote: out of all those, the build i posted only has arcane accuracy? I was making a point about magi in general, as opposed to your specific build.
Vrog Skyreaver wrote: shroudb wrote: you even quoted it.
first part:
you take only a -2 penalty on attack rolls when fighting defensivly (no requirement to have the style active)
IF you have the style active AND you fight defensivly you gain an additional +1 to dodge ac.
So by that logic neither Jabbing style nor Kobold Style should even be style feats, as nothing in it's benefit specifically states that it has to be using the style:
shroudb wrote: but there is a clear distinction with out of style, and in style effects written in entirely different sentances of the feat descriptions. But they are all listed under the Benefit section of the feat. Additionally, you can't use a style feat before combat begins, so you would only get the benefit of monkey style while in combat. Nor would you benefit from Crane style in some hypothetical corner case in which you could take fight defensively before combat starts.
shroudb wrote: out of all those, the build i posted only has arcane accuracy? I was making a point about magi in general, as opposed to your specific build. generally, i would assume/gm that to have benefits from a style feat you need to be in the style feat even if it doesnt say so yes.
But as i said, when it specifically says:
"You gain X. You also gain Y if you use the style", i would assume/gm that yes, you dont need to be in the style for the first part, as it shows clear distinction.
And yeah, normal magi even go for quicken spell at some point, or other swift actions, but i was speaking for the specific tank build i posted, that one wouldn't need all that swift actions.
1 in the beginning of the combat for arcaning pool your weapon and then either use riposte or accuracy based on the situation. that is not a swift action deprived build.
i really dont get what you are talking about out and in combat stuff though. you cant even fight defensivly if you dont attack, so i see 0 chance of actually benefiting from crane outside of combat? what kind of corner case did you have in mind?
*even if the gm ruled you have to be in the style, you can always grab combat style master and keep intact action economy. a little more feat heavy, but +6ac (or +8ac+free riposte without spending action if you go all the way) is still sweet for a tank.
shroudb wrote: generally, i would assume/gm that to have benefits from a style feat you need to be in the style feat even if it doesnt say so yes. But as i said, when it specifically says:
"You gain X. You also gain Y if you use the style", i would assume/gm that yes, you dont need to be in the style for the first part, as it shows clear distinction.
So then to remain internally consistent with that logic, you could use either of the two feats that I mentioned without activating the style, because neither of them say anything about having to be in the style to get their benefit.
shroudb wrote: 1 in the beginning of the combat for arcaning pool your weapon and then either use riposte or accuracy based on the situation. that is not a swift action deprived build. It's worth mentioning that you can't both improve your weapon AND arcane accuracy in the same round, and typically once you start the immediate action train, you don't get off.
shroudb wrote: i really dont get what you are talking about out and in combat stuff though. you cant even fight defensivly if you dont attack, so i see 0 chance of actually benefiting from crane outside of combat? what kind of corner case did you have in mind? I didn't have a specific example (hence the hypothetical part). As for why I keep mentioning in and out of combat:
Style Feats wrote: Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins It seems pretty straightforward to me that you would not get the benefit out of combat.
shroud wrote: *even if the gm ruled you have to be in the style, you can always grab combat style master and keep intact action economy. a little more feat heavy, but +6ac (or +8ac+free riposte without spending action if you go all the way) is still sweet for a tank. Combat Style Master only lets you activate a style feat when combat starts. It doesn't alleviate the fact that you can't use style feats until then.
My two issues with the Kensai magus are:
1. Surviving the first few levels; and
2. Having so few spells.
You are a secondary character for a fair while and limited in the number of times that you can operate at full potency.
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I think you are looking in the wrong direction if you want to max your AC.
You've got blur and mirror image. Castings of these are worth way, waaaay more than the few points you get from mixing classes.
Surviving the low levels isn't all that hard. It's not fun, but by level three the issue should be gone.
Unless you're rolling a Str build. A Str build Kensai is horrid at the low-levels unless you have a GM who was really generous to you in other ways.
But let's take a pretty straightforward Magus race; a Tiefling. He had 20 point buy, so he went 16 Dex/16 Int, then dropped Cha and Str a bit to afford a usable Con. He's a surly, ugly little bastard, but he's quick and smart with those double 18s.
His default AC is 10+4 Dex+1 Int+1 Armor (he wears a Haramaki, after all)=16. Not great. But Shield's on his spell list, and since he's not Spell Combating at level 1, that's probably about half of his spells prepared, with the other half being Color Spray.
He's going to focus on neutralizing encounters quickly with Color Spray and letting his allies mop up, or if that's not an option he puts up Shield for a solid 20 AC-- now he's as tough as the Fighter in full plate, and most stuff he'll fight has a tiny chance of hitting him. Offensively he's not a whole lot to look at outside Color Spray, but he can chuck Dazes around to control the board.
Come level 3, he's got better defenses-- 18 AC baseline, assuming he hasn't gotten any items, and he can Parry attacks-- and lots more uses of his defensive spells, but now he also has a credible offense with Dex-to-damage and Precise Strike; that should be adding 7-8 points of offense.
And that's not really a defensively-focused setup, that's your bog standard boring Magus. Going forward he'll start looking at a lot of the other options in this thread, probably nab Armor of the Pit for another +2 AC, and of course build up his item stockpile. But even with just his basic kit at level 3, 18 AC plus the occasional parry will do just fine.
You could be rocking a 19 ac if you swapped out the haramaki for a chain shirt (as canny defense requires light or no armor).
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Vrog Skyreaver wrote: You could be rocking a 19 ac if you swapped out the haramaki for a chain shirt (as canny defense requires light or no armor).
And then you have arcane spell failure to contend with. Not worth it.
strayshift wrote: My two issues with the Kensai magus are:
1. Surviving the first few levels; and
2. Having so few spells.
You are a secondary character for a fair while and limited in the number of times that you can operate at full potency.
I've played this and it was still fun but i had to focus on all spells towards defense until i saved up the scratch for pearls of power. since you can save a ton of cash on not needing armor or shields you can go for extra pearls instead. Damage wise i was on par with any one handed fighter. use arcance mark to get extra attacks with full stat bonus to damage until level 3 when you can get flamboyant to add precise strike damage. by that point you should have a pearl of power or two to play with as well.
At first level you probably have just ONE first level spell even with an eighteen Intelligence. So that's a straight choice between offence or defence made in advance (unless you have someone willing to cast Mage Armour on you - WHY does the Magus not have this? Or Anticipate Peril?)
As a Kensai you do not have Light Armour Proficiency so the chain shirt is horrible in lots of different ways not just spell failure.
As said it is a balancing act requiring careful offence. By about 4th level you should have enough to be able to handle 2-3 fights.
strayshift wrote: At first level you probably have just ONE first level spell even with an eighteen Intelligence. So that's a straight choice between offence or defence made in advance (unless you have someone willing to cast Mage Armour on you - WHY does the Magus not have this? Or Anticipate Peril?)
The standard Magus does not have it on his list because unlike sorcerers and wizards, he can be wearing a chain shirt at first level with no arcane spell failure penalty.
Giving the Kensai the spell without cost essentially negates the choice the player made to forgo armor to take this archetype.
Corwin Illum wrote: Mithral Chain shirt or Mithral Kikko armor can be a great investment on a Kensai Magus. Just need to put up with the 10% spell failure. Can go a long way to making you a "tank" though, especially if enchanted. Cast spells without S components don't have a failure chance at all. Some will be what you want to do -anyway- as a tank, such as blur and displacement, dimension door in front or away. True strike to hit those though targets.
If you are looking to be truly tanky, the Aldori Dueling Sword with the dueling mastery feat can be quite good. Gives +init and +2 shield bonus... Something a kensai has a tough time acquiring. Slashing grace works well here too.
Example Feats:
Human
[Kensai] - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword)
[Kensai] - Weapon Focus (Aldori Dueling Sword)
[Human] - Weapon Finesse
[1st] - Slashing Grace (Aldori Dueling Sword)
[3rd] - Dodge
[5 Magus bonus] - Quickdraw
[5th] - Aldori Dueling Mastery
Kensai can't wear light armor
Sure he can, you just have to deal with the ASF.
Which is generally not wise, but you have the option.
lvl1-2 will such as a kensai whatever you do. at least you have good intelligence for that daze. your damage, as dex base, will be downright pathetic until you get either agile, or dervish or fencing grace or whatever route you take for dex to damage.
on the bright side, the 17-21 ac is good for starting character.
also, potions, they work wonders for such low levels, be it either mage armor, oils of bless weapon, and etc.
human is the only way i think to get dex to damage at lvl1, but that comes at the expense of worse starting attributes for a dex base magus and at an expense of being a bit worse in late game (1/6arcana is super powerful FCB if the game goes on)
LazarX wrote: strayshift wrote: At first level you probably have just ONE first level spell even with an eighteen Intelligence. So that's a straight choice between offence or defence made in advance (unless you have someone willing to cast Mage Armour on you - WHY does the Magus not have this? Or Anticipate Peril?)
The standard Magus does not have it on his list because unlike sorcerers and wizards, he can be wearing a chain shirt at first level with no arcane spell failure penalty.
Giving the Kensai the spell without cost essentially negates the choice the player made to forgo armor to take this archetype. Four ac is good at low levels but useless at higher levels of power. It doesn't mean the archetype is suddenly overpowered to allow it - having less spells hurts more.
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