I read a thread here that re-arranged the order of events for Skinsaw Murders. I really like the idea of having the Manor be the final area of the module. There were a lot of home-brewed elements to the thread I am robbing for the idea that wouldn't fit in my own game.
I gave a Story Feat to each PC at the beginning of the adventure with a little back story. I wanted to tie my first-time-to-RPG-games players into the story a little more. Our female human Rogue got 'Nemesis' with Justice Ironbriar as the man behind the curtain. I've told her that she used to run with the Scarzni in Magnimar, until she was framed for some crimes she didn't commit by a Justice with an axe to grind and had to flee to Sandpoint.
They were able to capture Tsuto at the Glassworks and he was then shipped off to the big city for a trial by Sherrif Hemlock. He will of course be sprung by Ironbriar (who is also his father in my revision, thanks Paizo forums!)
I'm trying to expand the section where the PC's are investigating the Cult. Its pretty sparse as it is written, and two of my players are also big Mystery-genre fans who will really enjoy tracking down clues.
The sequence of events that I'm contemplating goes as follows:
First murders at the Sandpoint sawmill go as normal. The clues will remain unchanged, but I intend to have the Sherrif mention the caravan guard shacked up at the Sanitarium and the similarity between the killings.
Tsuto will be at the Sanitarium to clean up the loose ends that the increasingly-unbalanced Skinsaw Man is leaving behind. He'll have a couple low-level thugs/cultists with him acting as orderlies. He'll intend to impersonate the staff (who's bodies are stuffed in a closet) until he sees its the PC party. As they are rather fresh from killing the love of his life he'll lose it and attack. He'll get his butt kicked again of course, and try to flee into the woods to give our Inquisitor a chance to track someone down.
I need to add some clues here that will lead ultimately to Ironbriar and his Sawmill hideout. I also intend to have some cryptic notes about the cult replenishing their ranks and a debate as to whether to allow 'A' in or not. There will also be mention of a plan to 'deal with the Scarnetti's.'
Titus Scarnetti will be receiving a new shipment when they arrive to check on him. I'm stuffing the Golem Works Incident in here, and the Clockwork Constructs will be trying to carry the man off. The rest flows pretty normally, with the culprit being changed to another Skinsaw cultist.
Between the two thwarted attempts, I need enough clues to get them to the Sawmill. There will be cultists and clues aplenty, but I want to move the Ironbriar fight.
Here's where I really need help. I'm struggling with what to do with Ironbriar and Xanesha from this point. My tentative idea is that they try to flee to the Manor in a carriage. Instead of the Farm, I will have the Ghoul's attack an Inn where the pursuing PC's will (somehow) be moved to stop for the night. I understand that Ironbriar as written is kind of a lightweight, and Xanesha can be overpowered. I'm trying to figure out a sequence of events that has the PC party fight Xanesha first (possibly with the Scarecrow driving the carriage?) Ironbriar would make it to the mansion, as I really like the idea of the Carrionswarm hunched over the remains of his horses when they arrive. I'm open to other ideas though, and admit I'm not really sure where I could put him in the mansion that would add anything of interest to his fight. It should be somewhat epic as its a major milestone for our Rogue.
Any ideas for plot hooks or clues found at various scenes would be greatly appreciated!
I love your approach and might shamesly steal from it :)
Free story feats sound great
If you need Ironbriar be more important than xanesha your could change that easy. Trade Xanesha and Lucretia, make ver less powerful/unsecure, por make Ironbriar work secretly for Lucretia (ignore the part where he's charmed by Xanesha, ir make him charmed by Lucretia)
That thread was mine, and I'm glad you liked the basics of it enough to consider making your own changes along the same lines.
There certainly are lot of extra elements I've spliced in, patching over seams in the plot with small modules and bits of content, and the result is barely recognizeable as The Skinsaw Murders except in very large strokes. But I think this is for the better in my case, as I have people in my group who have DM'd the module themselves, and very much enjoy the fact that they have no idea what's going to happen next.
Quote:
she used to run with the Scarzni in Magnimar, until she was framed for some crimes she didn't commit by a Justice with an axe to grind and had to flee to Sandpoint.
Ouch. This is...yeah, I would not have done this. Remember, setting Ironbriar up as an enemy or villain early on is a huge mood-killer. In fact, the grand majority of my additions content-wise were specifically to fix this problem, because I really feel that players need to come to the conclusion that Ironbriar is evil on their own, or have his betrayal come as a shock to them to deliver its proper impact. You're treading some odd ground by setting him up as a man who would risk his cover by framing an insignificant gang member. He's much smarter than that, and a man in his position probably wouldn't be so cavalier with his power that he'd need to do that. I mean, he does run a secret cabal of murder-cultists, remember.
Quote:
He will of course be sprung by Ironbriar (who is also his father in my revision, thanks Paizo forums!)
I've become of the mind that this is also not a great option. I mean, it's serviceable, but I think you could probably do some more with Tsuto. Ironbriar would have to have a major use for him to spring him from prison, and Tsuto certainly isn't a Skinsaw, so getting him to follow along with them in service of Xanesha is not something I see Tsuto doing. He followed Nualia, but that was out of misplaced love and hatred for his family, not any particular murderous agenda.
If anything I would see Tsuto end up being murdered horribly or turned into a Ghoul or something, used as an indicator of the cult's wickedness and callousness. Tsuto has no real reason to be a recurring character, so use his death to tell your players something important.
Quote:
I'm trying to expand the section where the PC's are investigating the Cult.
This is something I spent a bit of time on myself, and while I don't think my solution is perfect, I like the way it's working out. I've been having the players pick up bits and pieces of information, buried under a lot of junk, and watching them sift through it and put some pieces together is an interesting process. Currently, they are convinced that the murders are actually ritual killings pertaining the the Seven sins, and are trying to catalog all the victims by what sin the represent. They are, of course, all representing Greed in their own way, but the players haven't acquired that yet.
The thing here is, in order to properly have an investigation, you need a LOT of content, because players can search a crime scene and pick up clues in minutes, and that doesn't fill much space. You need to keep them busy for many sessions, and have the important clues show up every so often so that they keep being reminded of what their major goal is, but also never stop moving. Magnimar is a big city. I gave the players a working relationship with Ironbriar, told he was a crusader against cult violence, and he gave the players mysteries and murders around town to investigate. Most are dead-ends, but they've sifted actual clues out of the mess, and it's keeping them off-balance, which I think is important for the tone of the book.
Quote:
The clues will remain unchanged, but I intend to have the Sherrif mention the caravan guard shacked up at the Sanitarium and the similarity between the killings.
The Lumber Mill is, as it stands, a nearly perfect scene, I think. No changes necessary there. If you haven't done it, it also provides a solid opportunity to introduce the Scarnetti family as a red-herring, as the book suggests. I had them currently embattled with Ameiko in a bidding war over the Glassworks, and the players kept finding connections to their family even in Magnimar for a while. Keeps them guessing.
Obviously, my Sanatorium was a bit different, with the Cult having killed Habe and in the process of trying to take Sevilla away to tie up that loose end when the players arrive. I also had cult members hidden in Sandpoint keeping track of Aldern's movements. It was Dawn of the Scarlet Sun that gave me the NPCs I needed here, a very good interim module I highly recommend.
Quote:
Tsuto will be at the Sanitarium to clean up the loose ends that the increasingly-unbalanced Skinsaw Man is leaving behind.
I wouldn't use Tsuto here. Way too obvious, and it would just give up the whole jig to players as soon as they see him, they know almost exactly what's going on. By the point of the Sanatarium, they shouldn't know whether it's the work of a cult, a single murderer, or a monster. Having Tsuto here, free from prison, would just scream "Secret organization pulling the strings behind the scenes" in a way that I think destroys the whole mystery.
Quote:
he'll intend to impersonate the staff (who's bodies are stuffed in a closet) until he sees its the PC party.
Yeah, I wouldn't use Tsuto here. He's not a cultist, and there's no real reason for him to impersonate the staff if his goal is to get Grayst out. I had my Skinsaw Lieutenant using the Stalker's Mask to take on the face of Habe as reaction the the party, but it wasn't his original plan. Plus, you can never count on an enemy escaping combat alive, unless you use some major fiat. If you don't want Tsuto to die there, don't put him there. Again, I think he can serve great narrative purpose, but not in the Sanatarium. Disguised cultists will do just fine, they can simply wear guard uniforms from Magnimar, Ironbriar would have easy access to those, and no one would bat an eye at them taking a patient.
Also, I had my Sanatarium be empty of most patients due to Carlizu taking them for experiments when he left, which happened long before the PCs got there. I wanted to use him elsewhere, as I think the flavor of a necromancer working under the hospital was cool, but the encounter wasn't so much. I think he can be put to better use somewhere else in the world later, so you might consider that.
Quote:
I need to add some clues here that will lead ultimately to Ironbriar and his Sawmill hideout.
This is where things get tricky, and could take a while. The biggest detail is retaining the surprise that is Ironbriar's betrayal of the party and revealing of who he really is. If you lose that detail, the Sawmill just becomes another combat slog. It needs to be a pivotal moment in the story, and to do that you need proper build up.
Here's how my game has gone so far:
-Lumber Mill murder, happens as normal.
-Details of Farmhous murder, happens as normal.
-Kasadei (Guard Captain from DotSS) arrives in Sandpoint with guards to secure the town and hopefully catch the murderer.
-Some of the guards, including her 2nd in command, are Skinsaw. Their job is to bring Aldern in alive so he can be of use to Ironbriar/Xanesha.
-Party given note from Hemlock, goes to Habe's to see Sevilla.
-Magnimar Guards (Skinsaw thugs) are there to collect Sevilla. Bard spooks Thugs/Deitrich (Skinsaw lieutenant) into fighting.
-Sevilla delivers message about "The Skinsaw Man is coming" before he dies.
-Kasadei tells party to go to Magnimar, visit Ironbriar.
-Party goes there, Ironbriar knows who they are from their deeds in DotSS.
-They tell him everything they know.
-He offers to make them his deputies, they report to him and help him solve this mystery. Gives them basic unsolved murder spree to see if they can report to him.
-Murders are unrelated to Skinsaw, but the party deals with them. They bring the murderer in alive, for trial. Ironbriar wanted him captured because he is a sneaky, silent killer that evaded capture, and could be a useful tool for harvesting souls for Xanesha.
-Ironbriar's assistant accidentally gives the party a file of old, unsolved murders all with some ritual indications.
-Party investigates, finds the murders to be early efforts by the cult, arranged in a Sihedron around town (most of one, at least).
-Ironbriar tells them those were old files and not meant for him, he has other business for them. Also, the assistant is replaced.
-Party is suspicious now. Not sure what's going on, but things are fishy.
-Pathfinder society brings them in, gives them a job to help with.
-The job is a simple robbery/vandalism, but actually leads on a path that runs concurrent with the Skinsaw cult because it was directly caused by things Ironbriar did when Xanesha told him to accelerate his plans due to the party drawing closer to them.
-Players investigating a gang hideout who stole a magic key and an ancient tome at the behest of a Cultist disguised as a priest. The tome was stolen (the key can open it) to lead Xanesha deep under Magnimar to find the Shard of Greed.
-Before that happens, the players will get the final piece of the puzzle, documents detailing the large-scale dealings of the Brotherhood of the Seven, and how manay of their jobs intersect with murder victims they've already met, and how Ironbriar is a vaunted member of the Brotherhood, and how the Seven's primary business is it's Sawmill.
There's a lot of interior details, but that's the basic rundown of how I get my players from Lumber Mill murder to Cultist Hideout. You're free to stretch it as much as you like.
Quote:
I'm stuffing the Golem Works Incident in here
You may have some luck, but I tried fitting the Golemworks module in, and I just couldn't do it. Tonally, it didn't fit and I couldn't find a logical way of tying any of it's details in.
Quote:
I'm struggling with what to do with Ironbriar and Xanesha from this point. My tentative idea is that they try to flee to the Manor in a carriage.
No! Don't ruin the amazing potential scene the Sawmill can be, with Ironbriar's true reveal and the evil of the Skinsaw cult brought to light for the party by not letting Ironbriar die there! That's an important bit, I think. Like I said, you should NEVER plan on an NPC making it out of combat alive, because when you do, you're just asking for your players to slaughter them with easy and ruin your plans. But don't be afraid to let Ironbriar die. He's not the main villain of the story, he's just the most present one. Letting him die is important, as it gives the players that feeling of accomplishment, and lets them move on and learn that he was just the tip of the iceberg.
I see no reason to not run the Shadow Clock as written after the Sawmill. Build it up, sure, and make it take some extra time to get there. Personally, I want to run the Sawmill, followed by Shadow Clock that Xanesha has already abandoned, followed by the dungeon for the Shard of Greed where her final fight is. I think her dying underground, hidden from the public, and near the powerful magic artifact she's seeking is a proper send-off for her as the boss of the module.
After that, the Manor should be like the winding down part. Sure, it's full of tension and narrative elements, but after the long and winding investigation that is hunting the Skinsaw, I think the Manor needs to be last because it's the place where all the pieces finally come together, and all of the story that the players have floating around there heads finally starts to make sense, and where the true tragedy of Aldern's story is revealed.
Don't spoil that moment by including Ironbriar and Xanesha in it, I think.
That's my take on the whole matter. Sorry for being long-winded, but I'm more than happy to discuss these things in more depth if you have any specific questions or want anything elaborated on.
I think many of your criticisms are valid. I'm just not very good at coming up with mystery content.
Something to keep in mind, though, is that my players are mostly brand new. I tried my hardest to get them involved in things at Sandpoint, but when the first murders happen, they will have to be reminded who these people even are. I've had to railroad like an old-western villain to keep them on track. I'm concerned that if I keep things too mysterious, I'll have a mutiny.
So, a few things. Damage is already done with Ironbriar. He's an antagonist at the best. Currently the PC's have been notified that they will need to be ready to testify for Tsuto's trial. The players are ready for this but noted that our Rogue would probably need to lay low. I suppose I could run the actual trial, though it wouldn't be an American style trial and I'd need to make up all the rules and procedures.
What measures did you have in place to insure that the PC's found something suspicious at the Sanitarium? I can't really leave it up to luck or random PC actions. You said that your bard said something that spooked them, but what if they hadn't?
You had the farm ghoul's show up as usual? What steps were taken to control the undead outbreak? The equivalent of a zombie outbreak seems like it would be a pretty big deal. The end should be the Manor, and I personally intend to introduce several hunting parties in the background making sweeps of the area to make sure they get them all.
One of my criticisms of the basic set-up is that if you have a 'Brotherhood of Seven' then there should be more than one of the bastards! I know I was rushing things, but I wanted to include more cultist lieutenants and/or named characters.
About the trial, there's one in Carrión Crown book 2. If you can get borrow it, your can get some inspiration.
Ironbriar isn't necesarelly damaged yet. The only problem here is the rogué was accussed of something he didn't do, otherwise Ironbriar was just an overzealous Justice. Maybe you could play that to your favor: make Ironbriar lié. Tell the rogue he found the real guilty rogué a year later, and that he's sorry, and happy to see him with the good guys. Try to earn their confidence, and then betray them.
In any case, having Ironbriar as the clear antagonist isn't that big of a deal. Justo a different kind of story. You could focus the "shock value" of feeling a betray with Aldern Foxglove.
I'm just not very good at coming up with mystery content.
My best advice is to stop trying to treat the plot as a necessary hurdle to shuttle players from level X to level Y, and rather start approaching it like an actual narrative. Write it out and read it to yourself. Does it make sense? Do the actions of the NPCs follow logically? Do the things they do make enough sense in-context that a player could follow them? If the answer is no, you need to re-think things.
Quote:
Something to keep in mind, though, is that my players are mostly brand new.
To me, "new" doesn't usually mean "incapable of following a story".
If your players have no idea who the people in Sandpoint are by the time the second book rolls around, you really need to stop and just focus on spending time getting them familiar with the people of the town.
The murders haven't happened yet in your game, so don't rush to them right away. Stop what you're doing and just spend the next few sessions having the players meet and interact with NPCs, form relationships and learn who is who. This is something that should have happened in Book 1, but Book 2 absolutely loses it's impact if the players never feel like someone they know personally is in danger.
My players were pretty familiar with plenty of people in town, but the way that I really got them kicked into gear and caring about the safety of everyone was by having the note left at the crime scene be addressed to Ameiko rather than one of the PCs.
Quote:
I'm concerned that if I keep things too mysterious, I'll have a mutiny.
Why? A good story is a good story. Keep players hooked, and they'll follow it no matter where it goes. But you need to make sure they can keep up. But don't treat them like children. Unless they are children, in which case I can't help you.
Quote:
Currently the PC's have been notified that they will need to be ready to testify for Tsuto's trial.
Side-track them. Really, I wouldn't have Tsuto's trial be something the players get the chance to attend, but also in my eyes here the real important detail has to be that YOU want to take the effort to keep Ironbriar unspoiled for the reveal later. Find some way to distract the players from the trial long enough for Tsuto to be removed before it happens, and make sure whatever it is, Ironbriar is out in front of it and not hiding behind the scenes. If Tsuto never makes it to trial, and the players see Ironbriar up front rather than being off-stage, they have no reason to assume he was connected. Remember, Ironbriar commands a cult AND the resources of the Magnimar city guard. He has plenty of people to do jobs like this for him, he has no reason to leave public view.
Have the trial be set to happen in a week, and then take that time to conscript the PCs to go deal with Dawn of the Scarlet Sun events in Underbridge. Ironbriar being a cult leader and a powerful man in Magnimar, he's sure to keep other cult-types and ritual killers on his radar, and having one in his pocket that he can toss at the Players to keep them distracted is something I'm sure he would do. Plus, DotSS is great if you have any Sarenrae-worshipping PCs, and it supplies you with a few great NPCs that can become a huge asset to you later on. Kasadei makes a great liason to the city for the players, and a possible good friend, and Alvalexi can make a great recurring villain if she survives like she did in my game.
Give yourself some room to breath.
Quote:
What measures did you have in place to insure that the PC's found something suspicious at the Sanitarium?
The Sanatarium for me was largely a study in Player reactions. You have to understand one thing, first: The major point of the Sanatarium in-game is to have Grayst Sevilla deliver his message to the party. That absolutely needs to happen. It's a huge creepy moment, and if played properly, will ride off the unease the players feel from the murder scenes and drive that feeling of dread.
So I knew that part had to happen. The problem is, I don't like how as-written, Sevilla is stored away in the top room of a winding maze of a building. That disarms a lot of the tension of his meeting, I think. I re-build the Sanatarium layout a bit, but because I was going with the Imposter Habe and Guards, I kept the ground floor mostly the same so I could use the big 3-table room as the encounter site.
No matter what happened, Grayst was going to deliver his message and then turn Ghoul, so he had to be killed. Had the players not spooked the Imposters, I assume the Fake-Guard would have insisted that right after the murders, the players go with them straight to Magnimar to report on the death of their prisoner and the players can be dealt with by Ironbriar personally.
Outside of the message from Sevilla, I don't think any details from the Sanatarium are that important, not enough so that I'd need to make sure the players see them.
Quote:
You said that your bard said something that spooked them, but what if they hadn't?
During the middle of Sevilla being brought into the large room so he could be taken away by the "Guards" (right before he delivers his message and transforms), the players questioned him as he was brought by. He just babbled, didn't answer anything straight. The Bard then decided to see his reaction by summoning a large Silent Image of a big sihedron rune in mid-air. Sevilla freaked out, but the sight of this actually scared the Skinsaw Thug "guardsmen" more, and they didn't know much what to do. The thugs attacked, "Habe" fled out the door, and Sevilla fought against his restraints the whole time, and actually changed Ghoul in a separate encounter in the same room.
My Slayer attempted to chase Fake-Habe (Skinsaw cultist Deitrich in disguise), who fled with one of his thugs, but only succeeded in finding a spot where apparently the two stopped and Deitrich murdered the surviving thug before riding off.
Again, had this not happened? I don't think much would be changed. The only crucial detail here is Sevilla's transformation and speech. Also, to fill some gaps, I left some notes in Habe's Room that threw the players off balance, by implying that someone named "The Hurter" was present at the murders Sevilla survived, and was the one who tortured him.
Quote:
I can't really leave it up to luck or random PC actions.
Sure you can. Just know the important details, and weave them in where you need to. The players don't need to see every single thing you set up, just the ones you really need to tell the story.
Quote:
You had the farm ghoul's show up as usual?
I haven't run the farm yet. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, I may cut it entirely. It's a cool scene, I just can't find any place to put it that really makes sense or serves the narrative. It's a really tense, slow-moving area, but it doesn't really fit in my campaign as it's standing. I may deal with it after the Manor as a sub-plot, like I'm doing with Carlizu.
Quote:
The equivalent of a zombie outbreak seems like it would be a pretty big deal.
Agreed. Too much of a big deal to throw away completely, but just not easy to slot in right now. Like I said, I'll probably use it after all the story events from Book 2 are wrapped up, as an in-between adventure, with the party returning to Sandpoint and the Sheriff saying "Thanks for saving our lives. There's been a plague of ghouls steadily streaming into the farmlands, and Kasadei and I have been sending men to try and keep them contained. Go help clean them up and we can be rid of this nightmare for good."
Quote:
The end should be the Manor, and I personally intend to introduce several hunting parties in the background making sweeps of the area to make sure they get them all.
Yeah, I wouldn't make the players a central part in that. It's a fine setup to have the town guard taking care of it so the players can focus on the important details of the Manor, and you can use Ghouls as filler later if you need.
Quote:
One of my criticisms of the basic set-up is that if you have a 'Brotherhood of Seven' then there should be more than one of the bastards!
In my game, they operate largely in the background. It's never established who the other Brotherhood members are, only that they're "minor aristocracy" and their exact goals are unknown. To me, that sounds like the perfect opportunity to introduce other villains later, if you intend to keep the players in and around Magnimar for some more time than the book wants.
Ironbriar is a powerful man, and the leader of the Brotherhood, but he's not the only one there, and someone will have to take over when he's gone. Use this to your advantage. Find an interesting chunk of content and tie it in. Or, once the party destroys the majority of the cult at the Sawmill, have the leaders scatter and go into hiding or flee the city. You have plenty of opportunity to use them later on in the campaign.
I think many of your criticisms are valid. I'm just not very good at coming up with mystery content.
Something to keep in mind, though, is that my players are mostly brand new. I tried my hardest to get them involved in things at Sandpoint, but when the first murders happen, they will have to be reminded who these people even are. I've had to railroad like an old-western villain to keep them on track. I'm concerned that if I keep things too mysterious, I'll have a mutiny.
So, a few things. Damage is already done with Ironbriar. He's an antagonist at the best. Currently the PC's have been notified that they will need to be ready to testify for Tsuto's trial. The players are ready for this but noted that our Rogue would probably need to lay low. I suppose I could run the actual trial, though it wouldn't be an American style trial and I'd need to make up all the rules and procedures.
What measures did you have in place to insure that the PC's found something suspicious at the Sanitarium? I can't really leave it up to luck or random PC actions. You said that your bard said something that spooked them, but what if they hadn't?
You had the farm ghoul's show up as usual? What steps were taken to control the undead outbreak? The equivalent of a zombie outbreak seems like it would be a pretty big deal. The end should be the Manor, and I personally intend to introduce several hunting parties in the background making sweeps of the area to make sure they get them all.
One of my criticisms of the basic set-up is that if you have a 'Brotherhood of Seven' then there should be more than one of the bastards! I know I was rushing things, but I wanted to include more cultist lieutenants and/or named characters.
Askren has provided a lot of good and interesting content/suggestions but I'll throw a couple cautionary points out there.
By your own admission, you're not very good at coming up with mysterious content. And your players do not seem well-connected enough with Sandpoint and its occupants to make a mystery likely to quickly engage them. Your phrase about mutiny seems a red flag. Not only do you have to come up with (or borrow) the mysterious content you need to make it "live" and your players have to find it interesting to pursue. If you struggle, you and your players will feel it.
I would point out that despite appearances to the contrary and even some text in the AP, Book 2 is NOT a murder mystery. This is not "find the killer" but rather "follow the killer." There are not actually multiple valid suspects as in a true mystery instead it's more like following a rabid wolf back to its den by following the trail of its kills.
Spoiler:
I would also caution against enhancing the role of Ironbriar - a common trope on this board. First off, neither Ironbriar or Aldern for that matter have "betrayed" the pc's - unless you dramatically increase their screen time and importance to the story you are simply not going to produce the shock value of "the reveal" for your players since they are simply not going to be that invested in them as "good" npcs. To get that result you would need to have Mayor Deverin or Sheriff Hemlock or Ameiko be revealed as leaders of the conspiracy. Second if you were to increase Ironbriar's importance to the pc's you create some hidden risks for the rest of the AP. The AP is about the salvation of Sandpoint, not Magnimar. To make Ironbriar important you have to make Magnimar important - elaborate on its politics, increase adventure scope in the city and so forth. Everything you do along those line distracts from Sandpoint and creates a false impression in the players minds. Book 1 - Save Sandpoint, become mover and shakers in town. Book 2 - Save Sandpoint then Magnimar, become mover and shakers in the big city. Book 3 - get critical mission from Big City Mayor, deal with Hook Mountain. At this point your players are going to think this is about Magnimar. Only they never go back in Books 4-6. But they sure go back to Sandpoint.
This in my mind is one of the small missteps in the AP - It's never explained why the content in Magnimar is so lean. The pc's could literally enter the city anonymously, go to the town house, the mill and the clock with nary an interaction with any NPC's or city leader. That's on purpose - they aren't Magnimar's Heroes, they're Sandpoint's Heroes.
Lastly, Ironbriar is not an important NPC in the story - his critical role is as a victim. He's not there to surprise or double-cross the pc's, he's there to show just how powerful and corrupting Xanesha and her masters are. Even a decades old cult of Norgorber that is led by one the towns more important leaders can be completely co-opted and destroyed by this new power. The wreckage of Nualia, Aldern, and Ironbriar are meant to show the pc's first hand just how important it is to find the true source of this evil and shut it down. This theme continues through Kaven Windstrike and Mokmurian himself - who has broken the natural order of several Stone Giant tribes, betraying his entire race for Karzoug.
Latrecis is raising an interesting issue, with the Magnimar/Sandpoint dichotomy thing and his take on Ironbriar and his role in the campaign.
I don't disagree, in fact I think every point you raise is perfectly valid. As-written, Ironbriar isn't supposed to be all that important, he's really just an cult leader that has the unfortunate role of being a someone post-hoc sympathetic character...ish. Ok, maybe no sympathetic, but still a victim in his own right, which is an odd choice for a serial-killer cultist leader.
That's primarily why I re-wrote the adventure the way I did, because I wanted my players to experience Magnimar like they did. Even with the time spent there, they still think of Sandpoint as "home", but Magnimar allows a lot more in terms of adventure potential.
The major issue I have is that I started from a point of annoyance that the best part of Skinsaw Murders, the Misgivings Manor, was buried in the middle of the book with so little build-up to it that it didn't tell the story it should have. But moving it to the end requires a bit of shifting priority. So I gave Ironbriar the spotlight as the undercover-badguy in the first half of the book and stretched the "murders" aspect out to include not just Aldern's killings, but those wrought by the cult over Ironbriar's time in power. What I HOPE this accomplishes is that once the players uncover the cult and defeat Ironbriar, they will have enough of a complete picture of things that it frames Aldern's current state as more of a tragic story. The players should be headed to the manor ready to stop an old friend and keep their adopted home safe.
I do think that, in hind-sight, I may have written the story so that the "finale" of the cult investigation takes place after the Manor. In fact, I still might do that. I think that having the players go off to stop Xanesha might make Magnimar drag on a bit TOO much, and hurt the sense of urgency that might not even exist anymore.
Either way, that's my take on the whole story. You may look at it differently and value different things from the plot, and that's a good thing because I really like seeing other people's take on it. Obviously I don't present my ideas as the best, or even great options. They're just my experiment with the adventure, and obviously when I'm done I will probably examine them overall and go back and edit the whole thing.
Good points being raised.
In my case, I'm doing a mash up with Shattered Star. Magnimar is then slightly more important: they hace to deal with Sheyla Heidermarch, and find some cult (Dawn of Scarlat sun) that links Xanesha, Misgivings, the cult, Nualia, and the Catacomb of Wrath, with The Lady's Light.
I'm going to make Ironbriar part of the bad guys, instead of a charmed guy who was forced to cooperate. Misgivings is going to be the starting point of one of the Shards, (envy), which is what corrupta Aldern. And Nualia, the Skinsaw Cult, Dawn of Scarlet Sun cultists and the Scribblers are all of them a cylt of Shax, influenced by the catacomb's shrine (which also ties wirh Chopper and his misterious birds
I went a similar way, but I used the Pathfinder Lodge to contract the group (while still working for Ironbriar) to go investigate a robbery/vandalism that leads them to Mad God's Key, a module based around a magic key that can open any lock and a stolen tome from the Grand Library. The key is a throw-away, it's the tome that Xanesha wanted because it reveals the location of the Shard of Greed, which is going to be in the Irespan dungeon.
I'm thinking though that she's moving on that in secret, away from Ironbrair, because she doesn't want him involved in it, and so the players will deal with Xanesha possibly after the Manor.
I'm not doing anything with the Shards in the Manor, I think 2 in one book is a bit much, though I may introduce the hunt for a shard after. I didn't need the DotSS cult outside of their tiny reach, but Alvalexi is alive for me, so I can use her wherever I need.
I'm interested, more than anything, in the horror vibe of the AP. Going from murdering cultists to hillybilly "Dunwich clone" ogres, ramping up the creepier sides of each book (such as the headless rider or the doomsday door borrowed from Shattered Star), specially increasing the importance of Leng and/or the different cults. I like the idea of a more cohesive "rival" cult, that's why I want to make a link between the Chopper, Nualia, the Skinsaw Cult and The Scribbler, instead of being different things (as written, Chopper is influeced by Pazuzu, Nualia and Scribbler by Lamashtu and the Skinsaw by Norgorber). Parallel to that, the whole story of the Star, the corruption of the Runelords, the dabbling with Leng, Dark Tapestry, Necromancy, Demon worshipping and other dark magics.
For example: this week my PCs go into the Glassworks. I'm going to swap the standard zombies for Void Zombies and an imprisoned Akata. I'll make Koruvus an alchemist (with vestigial arm), and will make him to experiment building zombies with the Akata's disease. I think the tongue attack from the zombies is going to be unexpected for my players, and might help with the "horror from beyond" vibe, giving the alien aberration nature of Akatas
