When one interpretation gives you a dozen different DCs based on combinations of creature size and grid alignment, and the other interpretation gives you ONE DC equal to the width of pit, it seems hard to defend the first as common sense, IMO.
And yet, here we are. :-P
What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?
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What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?
dc 20 will save to make yourself look away. Fail by 5 or more and you are obligated to make popcorn and watch.
What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?
Brown bear, black bear, or dire bear? Could be important.
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What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?Brown bear, black bear, or dire bear? Could be important.
Female mode succubus, female nekkid druidess. What more do you need to know?
Female mode succubus, female nekkid druidess. What more do you need to know?What is the DC to jump over a Succubus grappling a (bare) bear druid?Brown bear, black bear, or dire bear? Could be important.
Oh FEMALE druid. Never mind then.
So if a druid is in a grapple with a succubus and the druid wild shapes into a bear, and the succubus attempts an act of passion, is the succubus then committing beastiality?
I know just what thread to ask this in.
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Oh my god there have been 200 messages since I last checked guys this is probably literally the stupidest argument we've ever had.
The question isn't "how far can I jump", since most jumps incorporate a bit of non-jump movement. The question is, how wide a gap can you jump? :P
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How was this a question
Because you have to move fifteen feet when you're jumping a ten-foot pit. It's a simple distinction—jumping is only ever part of a movement—but it did throw some people.
how did it take 24 pages to answer!?
send help.
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How was this a question and how did it take 24 pages to answer!?
Because the text of Acrobatics in the CRB was (and still is, despite the FAQ) in contradiction.
One section states that the DC is equal to the obstacle.
One section states that the DC is equal to the distance traveled.
And if someone just wants to jump for fun, to see how far they can jump, with zero obstacles, across a flat plane, there is currently no way to determine how far they jump.
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okay but you realize this is why the other subforums hate us right?
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How was this a question and how did it take 24 pages to answer!?Because the text of Acrobatics in the CRB was (and still is, despite the FAQ) in contradiction.
One section states that the DC is equal to the obstacle.
One section states that the DC is equal to the distance traveled.
And if someone just wants to jump for fun, to see how far they can jump, with zero obstacles, across a flat plane, there is currently no way to determine how far they jump.
What text are you using? The two references I see are:
Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical).and
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jumpCan't see how it isn't both clear and consistent, as both refer to the actual width of the obstacle. But then, I don't want another 12 pages either.
They do not mean the same thing. If you travel 10', it is from where the front of your toe starts the jump to where the front of your toe ends the jump. If you travel this 10' while trying to jump a 10' gap, your going to stub your toe as you fall in the hole.
Assuming your feet are 12" long, you would need to "move" 11' to land safely.
So, the distance to be crossed is 10' or DC 10.
But the movement is 11' or DC 11.
When counting squares, it is also a problem. What is the DC to jump over 2 squares? The distance of the jump is 10' = DC 10. The distance of the move is 15' = DC 15.
I am pretty sure everyone agrees the DC is 10 but they just want the book to actually reflect it. You can ignore the fact the book is wrong and play without trouble, but you can't follow both parts as they conflict.
10. You can jump fine with only half your foot on the ledge both when you jump and land. The gap is 10, the rule is clearly written as 1 per foot. You don't need to jump any extra distance, be it an arbitrary 1 or an arbitrary number to fit whatever combat grid you use.
Just because you need to move 11, 15, 20, or however many feet to make the jump, doesn't mean that you jump the whole distance you move.
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They do not mean the same thing. If you travel 10', it is from where the front of your toe starts the jump to where the front of your toe ends the jump. If you travel this 10' while trying to jump a 10' gap, your going to stub your toe as you fall in the hole.
Assuming your feet are 12" long, you would need to "move" 11' to land safely.
So, the distance to be crossed is 10' or DC 10.
But the movement is 11' or DC 11.When counting squares, it is also a problem. What is the DC to jump over 2 squares? The distance of the jump is 10' = DC 10. The distance of the move is 15' = DC 15.
I am pretty sure everyone agrees the DC is 10 but they just want the book to actually reflect it. You can ignore the fact the book is wrong and play without trouble, but you can't follow both parts as they conflict.
I really can't believe I'm actually going to participate in this thread. No good can come of it. Why am I doing it? I could stop right now. I could hit cancel and move on. Nothing I say could possibly be new. Why am I still typing? *sigh*
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed
This statement right here is definitive: if you want to cross a 10' gap safely, you need to hit a DC 10. Period, end of story
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump
Pathfinder, and most rules heavy combat simulation games, are abstractions. In this case, it's pretty clear that it is treating the creature as a single object of indeterminate size. To go from safely on one side of a 10' gap to safely on the other with a running start requires a DC 10. The size of their foot does not matter, because we don't know the size of the creature's foot, and because you don't need to land with your whole foot on the other side (generally, with forward momentum you only need to land on the ball of your foot to successfully jump a gap, so for an average human they'd only need to make a 10'2" leap, not 11'). So, to avoid this issue, we use an abstraction. Beat a DC 10, you safely jump a 10' gap. Done.
I still don't know why I bothered...totally pointless that I did.
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The question was answered.
I'm pretty sure KoboldCleaver just wanted to have some fun by necroing a contested argument.
I don't like the answer. It's not intuitive. It makes zero sense. But it is the answer.
The next thread should ask how far someone travels when they jump 20 feet in an open field with no obstacles. I'll order popcorn now and save it for then.
Or, better yet, is it impossible for a staggered dwarf to jump 20 feet? What about a 20 foot pit?
My only hope now is that the FAQ gets codified in the next printing of the CRB.
Because until it is, people unaware of the FAQ will likely still have their own arguments at home.
I don't think people playing a game at home argue as much as strangers on the internet.Well Monopoly does have a helpline you can call now...
I would need that helpline if I ever agreed to play Monopoly with my wife again.
Nothing good comes of playing Monopoly, with family members ... ever.
I don't think people playing a game at home argue as much as strangers on the internet.Well Monopoly does have a helpline you can call now...I would need that helpline if I ever agreed to play Monopoly with my wife again.
Nothing good comes of playing Monopoly, ... ever.
There fixed that
The question was answered.
I'm pretty sure KoboldCleaver just wanted to have some fun by necroing a contested argument.
I don't like the answer. It's not intuitive. It makes zero sense. But it is the answer.
The next thread should ask how far someone travels when they jump 20 feet in an open field with no obstacles. I'll order popcorn now and save it for then.
Or, better yet, is it impossible for a staggered dwarf to jump 20 feet? What about a 20 foot pit?
My only hope now is that the FAQ gets codified in the next printing of the CRB.
Because until it is, people unaware of the FAQ will likely still have their own arguments at home.
With the 20ft jump in an open field and no obstacles they traveled 20ft.
No, a staggered dwarf can jump 20ft since he can move 20ft a round still. He'd need an ability to always count as having a running start or REALLY big acrobatics, but he can jump 20ft using all his movement.
*Now if there was a pit covering 4 squares, aka 20ft, right next to his square then he couldn't clear the pit, as he'd need 25ft of movement to get to the square 25ft away.
s=start, X=pit, L=landing
SXXXXL
But if he was in a square that was half pit so that he was landing in the square that was only 20ft away and also half pit then he could, since he's able to jump 20ft, and only needs to move 20ft he's good.
[sx] = square that's half pit and half not pit.
[sx]XXX[xl]
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You've highlighted my exact struggle in trying to understand the inconsistency of jumping.
Not all jumps are equal, and it's incredibly frustrating.
If I want to jump 20ft, I should land 20ft away (travel 20ft, move 20ft, whatever you want to call it), and the DC should be 20. Super simple.
Also, grid placement. Grids don't exist in real life. The DC should be the same regardless of where an imaginary line happened to land.
But, with the current FAQ, I have to imagine an obstacle that doesn't exist, subtract 5ft from my total distance traveled, and use that number as my DC for the jump. Super not necessary.
That's all. Hopefully the next printing explains it less confusingly, but for me it will always be a sour spot.
NO, I don't understand what you're saying.
All jumps are equal. If you want to jump 20ft you land 20ft away traveling, moving and whatnot of 20ft and the DC is 20. But you'll often need to move more than just the distance of the jump in your turn. You don't need to jump your entire movement, just the movement over the pit.
SXXXXL
If I have this I'm needing to travel 25ft to my destination and there's a 20ft jump in the way. I only need to jump the pit, not my entire movement. So my jump is 20ft and DC 20, but to get to the landing square you needed to move a total of 25ft of movement, aka land travel 5ft.
[sx]XXX[xl]
Here I'm only needing to travel 20ft to reach end spot, and there's a 20ft jump in the way, thus I jump 20ft and stop moving.
The DC is the same regardless of where the imaginary line happens to land. The issue is all about how far you move from start to finish, how much movement you need, but the jump is only the distance of the obstacle you're needing to jump over in that movement.
besides the fact that you seem to have issues with stuff that doesn't exist, What kind of wording would you need to have it express to you the correct way to do it?
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Also, grid placement. Grids don't exist in real life. The DC should be the same regardless of where an imaginary line happened to land.
But, with the current FAQ, I have to imagine an obstacle that doesn't exist, subtract 5ft from my total distance traveled, and use that number as my DC for the jump. Super not necessary.
These two statements together confuse me. The FAQ makes it so grid placement won't affect jump DC. An 8 ft pit will be a DC 8 jump no matter if it takes up two or three squares on the map.
I think it makes a lot more sense when you abstract it. The DC to jump is for a specific distance, and it has a very binary result of "succeed" vs "fail". If you roll a 30 on your jump check for a 20ft gap do you suddenly exceed your movement? No, you just simply succeeded at trying to jump 20 feet.
If there was a 10 foot pit, a 5 foot "island", and a 10 foot pit on the other side and you wanted to clear the whole thing, it'd be a jump of 25 feet with a DC of 25. But if you wanted to land in the center, it's a 10 foot jump with a DC of 10 that doesn't suddenly make fall into the other side when you roll a 20 on your check.
Likewise, how far you want to jump in an open field doesn't matter until you know how far you need to jump. However, I would personally rule that it's entirely reasonable to have a "jump as far as you can" be a simple jump roll, and your distance is the result.
Also, grid placement. Grids don't exist in real life. The DC should be the same regardless of where an imaginary line happened to land.
Doesn't the FAQ make that the rule? the 10ft pits exist mostly because it's convenient for the grid, but if you happened to have a 13ft wide pit, then the DC to clear it would be 13 ft, even if you're taking the full 30ft of movement across it.
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Regarding grid placement, I was responding to Chess Pwn's example immediately preceding my post:
if he was in a square that was half pit so that he was landing in the square that was only 20ft away and also half pit then he could, since he's able to jump 20ft, and only needs to move 20ft he's good.
[sx] = square that's half pit and half not pit.
[sx]XXX[xl]
If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.
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You don't need to jump your entire movement, just the movement over the pit...
I only need to jump the pit, not my entire movement...
The issue is all about how far you move from start to finish, how much movement you need, but the jump is only the distance of the obstacle you're needing to jump over in that movement...
Thank you for proving my point.
I must imagine an obstacle for any jump I am attempting. That imaginary obstacle must be less than my distance traveled in the jump. Since I'll usually be medium-sized, I take up a 5 foot square where I land.
Ergo, however far I want to jump, I subtract 5 feet, and that number is my DC.
I understand it. I just don't like it.
You need not repeat examples ad nauseum. There's already plenty of that I can reference from earlier.
Shall we continue this debate forever? I enjoyed it so much.
Also, grid placement. Grids don't exist in real life. The DC should be the same regardless of where an imaginary line happened to land.
But, with the current FAQ, I have to imagine an obstacle that doesn't exist, subtract 5ft from my total distance traveled, and use that number as my DC for the jump. Super not necessary.
Why the heck would you have to do any of those things?
The character is jumping from edge of the gap to the other.
You measure the length of the obstacle (ignoring the grid, because grids don't exist in real life).
That is the distance travelled during the jump.
This is the DC.
This is all there is to it.
Which of these steps do you find at all confusing?
so in my example
[sx]XXX[xl]
How does your wacky logic work?
You want to jump 20ft. you subtract 5ft and your DC is 15? No, the DC to jump a 20ft pit is 20, not 15.
in this example
SXXXXL
how does your wackly logic work?
you want to jump 20ft. you subract 5ft and your DC is 15? No, the DC to jump a 20ft pit is 20, not 15.
The movement needed to clear the pit is 20ft, now the movement needed to get to your end square may be larger. You don't include the space you take up in your jump.
What I see you doing is something like this I guess.
I'm in a 5ft square, I want to move 25ft to the end square while jumping a 20ft pit. Since I'm in a 5ft squre, add 5 to the distance to jump so that I need to jump 25ft to jump 20ft, now to jump 20ft the DC is 25-5 so 20. So while you end up right, it's because you're adding an arbitrary number you shouldn't add, and then removing the arbitrary number.
Like if a feat says, you need to travel 25ft over a pit to insta win, if you have a 20ft pit, regardless of grid layout, you are only traveling 20ft over the pit with your jump.
So you aren't really understanding it since you're still adding some number to the jump that isn't there.
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Shall we continue this debate forever?
I'd prefer we didn't. You obviously think otherwise.
I understand it. I just don't like it.
You need not repeat examples ad nauseum. There's already plenty of that I can reference from earlier.
For reference, because people have short memories, it was KoboldCleaver that decided to Necro this thread.
Not I.
I think you and I are destined to do this forever.Shall we continue this debate forever?I'd prefer we didn't. You obviously think otherwise.
For-eh-VUR
For-eh-VUR
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This is so funny.
Draw a line in the dirt.
Draw a parallel line 5' away.
Stand with your toes on one line while facing the other (AKA outside the lines).
Walk 5'.
Notice that you are IN-BETWEEN the lines.
If this was a 5' pit, your 5' of movement would mean you fell in the pit.
But the DC to jump a 5' pit is 5 AND the movement of a skill check of 5 is 5'. Both things cannot exist at the same time. There is no question that the rules were written that way and were not compatible.