What is the DC to leap across a ten foot wide pit?


Rules Questions

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Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:


Yes, actually there is.
Under Special Movement Rules in the Combat Section of CRB
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

You need to show that a spot, mid-air, over a pit is an illegal space to end your turn in.

It's obviously not, since you could fly to that space, or you could have already fallen 500' and ended your turn in that space.

So really what you need to show, for that rule to apply, is that jumping to that point in space is illegal.

While I think your argument of ending your turn in another characters space not being bypassed by "declaring I'm still moving" has some validity, it isn't bullet proof on its own. The rules tell us that ending our turn in another characters space is illegal. We don't have such a rule for a open space over a pit.

The Exchange

First, I would hope that we all agree that the end of someone's turn is the end of their movement. Without that rules governing movement fall apart.

You say the rule is you can't end your turn in another character's space. that is not correct, the rule is "Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless." So try to tell your GM when you run out of movement at the end of your turn and still occupy the same space as another creature that you're continuing the same movement, you have just reached your max speed so must finish the movement on your next turn. I wish you luck...

Once we accept that the end of your turn is the end of your movement we see that reaching the end of our turn mid jump means we now have to check if mid air in a jump is a legal place to stop. "Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop." While stopping your movement in midair is technically legal (nothing is preventing you from jumping off a cliff to fall, or 5' stepping off a roof/wall/ledge to fall to the bottom) I would say it is very poor etiquette to tell a player that may mis-understand the rules that they are now falling to their death because they believed they could make a jump one turn, and land on the next turn. The better option is either Correct them and let them choose another action. Or move them back to their last legal position.

You are right, there is no rule that specifically calls out that being in mid-air without a fly/air-walk/whatever is not a legal place to stop. As mentioned above it may simply be it is a legal place to stop, but it results in your falling. However in either case it prevents you from completing the jump.

Finally to allow a jump to start on one turn and end on another would be tantamount to starting a double-move on one turn and finish on another. What is to stop this from being used as on a full attack "you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." No where does it specifically say that a full attack must take place in a single round, it could be spread across two rounds so long as it utilizes a standard action and a move action. Doing that is complete nonsense, absolutely. I just don't see jumping across multiple turns as being any less nonsensical without a specific exception allowing it.


Quote:


You need to show that a spot, mid-air, over a pit is an illegal space to end your turn in.

It's obviously not, since you could fly to that space, or you could have already fallen 500' and ended your turn in that space.

So really what you need to show, for that rule to apply, is that jumping to that point in space is illegal.

While I think your argument of ending your turn in another characters space not being bypassed by "declaring I'm still moving" has some validity, it isn't bullet proof on its own. The rules tell us that ending our turn in another characters space is illegal. We don't have such a rule for a open space over a pit.

I think is a mis-interpretation of turn-based rules to infer that time stops for a character when his turn ends.

The Exchange

ATM it's not a matter of whether or not time stops for said person, I think we all accept that these are just turn based actions to apply appropriate rules and not have 6 players and a GM all trying to do things at the same time.

When we reference someone stopping mid air, we are simply acknowledging that their turn has ended, while they are still in the air. The question comes from "What happens now?" In live action, the person jumps the pit. In Pathfinder's turn based rules system, I believe he can't complete the jump.

The issue is that as a real time action, whether someone has already moved 50' or only 10' should not be a factor in their ability to jump a 10' hole. However with the rules as they are, a person who has moved 50' already can only move another 10' before he is out of movement (assuming double move, 30' speed, and no option to run). Moving 10' over a 10' pit puts you still 5' away from the other side of the pit. So the question becomes whether you are allowed to:
1- Complete the jump on the turn after you started it
2- The Jump automatically fails leaving you to fall to the bottom of the pit.
3- The GM should move you back to the last legal square ruling that stopping your turn mid-air is not a legal place to stop.
4- Tell you that you should use your second move action to go somewhere/do something else since you will not be able to complete the jump.


thejeff wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I love that this is back in full swing - can we get a FAQ on a FAQ?

This is the song that never ends.....

I vote for Jumps don't count as movement - ipso facto:

Bob is a fighter in heavy plate that was hit by strength drain and now has a 0 movement. Bob can always take 5 feet of movement due to the 'minimum movement rule' as a full round action. Bob can also make an acrobatics check to jump (taking all penalties into account). For grins and giggles - here is bob (drained of str) as a statblock so everyone can see what I mean:

** spoiler omitted **...

Because I feel like nitpicking:

You failed to account for the fact that at 0 speed he takes a -8 penalty to acrobatics checks to jump. (-4 per 10' below 30'). Because of the encumbrance he also takes a penalty to dex to ac, a check penalty which works like ACP, and can't run, etc. What is the ACP equivalent for a load greater than heavy? Heavy load is a -6. Beyond that is not listed, but if we use the existing progression it would be -9. So that 20' jump becomes impossible. Now I will grant he could still jump more than 5' distance in that scenario. However, when a character is so loaded down that "...he or she can only stagger around with it." I think common sense ought to kick in. Just like dead characters can take no actions, characters so overloaded by weight can't jump, swim, climb, or any other skill that has str/dex as the base. In other words, the skill check penalty under such a circumstance should probably be infinite.

I did miss the -9 for the overburdened and -5 for the dex penalty - however I did account for his 0 speed (all jump checks DCs are doubled if you start from a standing spot).

so -14 to his roll - he still managed to pull a DC 14 jump check (good enough for 10 feet - so close to 15!)

No. Two different things. There's the -4 penalty per 10' of movement speed below 30' per round. That he's doing a standing jump instead of a running...

Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.

His base land speed isn't below 30 - ergo no penalty - that applies only to creatures who's base speed is low - his is crippled due to conditions and thus this rule doesn't apply.


Ckorik wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I love that this is back in full swing - can we get a FAQ on a FAQ?

This is the song that never ends.....

I vote for Jumps don't count as movement - ipso facto:

Bob is a fighter in heavy plate that was hit by strength drain and now has a 0 movement. Bob can always take 5 feet of movement due to the 'minimum movement rule' as a full round action. Bob can also make an acrobatics check to jump (taking all penalties into account). For grins and giggles - here is bob (drained of str) as a statblock so everyone can see what I mean:

** spoiler omitted **...

Because I feel like nitpicking:

You failed to account for the fact that at 0 speed he takes a -8 penalty to acrobatics checks to jump. (-4 per 10' below 30'). Because of the encumbrance he also takes a penalty to dex to ac, a check penalty which works like ACP, and can't run, etc. What is the ACP equivalent for a load greater than heavy? Heavy load is a -6. Beyond that is not listed, but if we use the existing progression it would be -9. So that 20' jump becomes impossible. Now I will grant he could still jump more than 5' distance in that scenario. However, when a character is so loaded down that "...he or she can only stagger around with it." I think common sense ought to kick in. Just like dead characters can take no actions, characters so overloaded by weight can't jump, swim, climb, or any other skill that has str/dex as the base. In other words, the skill check penalty under such a circumstance should probably be infinite.

I did miss the -9 for the overburdened and -5 for the dex penalty - however I did account for his 0 speed (all jump checks DCs are doubled if you start from a standing spot).

so -14 to his roll - he still managed to pull a DC 14 jump check (good enough for 10 feet - so close to 15!)

No. Two different things. There's the -4 penalty per 10' of movement speed below 30' per round. That he's doing a standing
...

So a hasted character can't jump farther because their base speed did not change, just their current speed, right?


Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

First, I would hope that we all agree that the end of someone's turn is the end of their movement. Without that rules governing movement fall apart.

Yes.

Quote:


You say the rule is you can't end your turn in another character's space. that is not correct, the rule is "Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless." So try to tell your GM when you run out of movement at the end of your turn and still occupy the same space as another creature that you're continuing the same movement, you have just reached your max speed so must finish the movement on your next turn. I wish you luck...

Well a helpless character is a specific exception to the rule that you can't end your movement in the same space as another creature. A sufficiently small creature can also end its movement in the same space as a larger creature, or other small creatures. But let's leave the specific exceptions out of the equation. In general, you cannot end your movement in another creatures space. The rules specifically tell us this. I don't see a rule that you cannot end your turn in the air (under any circumstances). Generally this means you are flying, or still in the act of falling from a very great height, but it is not necessarily limited to those two means. Generally any open space is a legal space to end movement in.

EDIT:
In this scenario I don't see a meaningful distinction between the phrase "end your movement" and ending your turn. e.g, it amounts to the same thing in this case. But I can take a move action and end the movement of my move action in another players square, then take my standard to continue moving and not end my turn in their square, and that is a legal move. It is only when the turn is over do I really need to check whether my movement would have ended there. (Note: You would pre-check that if they want to do something other than move with their standard, because you know their movement ended at that point).

Going back to my rogue example. If the rogue just ran 40', and that put him exactly at the edge of the moat. On his next turn does he count as having had a running start to jump the moat? His movement for the turn ended there, but did he lose his momentum for the jump?
END EDIT:

Quote:


Once we accept that the end of your turn is the end of your movement we see that reaching the end of our turn mid jump means we now have to check if mid air in a jump is a legal place to stop. "Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop." While stopping your movement in midair is technically legal (nothing is preventing you from jumping off a cliff to fall, or 5' stepping off a roof/wall/ledge to fall to the bottom) I would say it is very poor etiquette to tell a player that may mis-understand the rules that they are now falling to their death because they believed they could make a jump one turn, and land on the next turn. The better option is either Correct them and let them choose another action. Or move them back to their last legal position.

That phrase regarding "a legal place to stop", to me can be read two ways. One supports your side of the argument, one does not. You are not allowed to stop inside a wall, or inside another creature (barring exceptions of course) and end your turn there - again because the rules tell us this (though the wall should have been common sense of course). It does not say you stop moving at the end of your turn.

Quote:


Finally to allow a jump to start on one turn and end on another would be tantamount to starting a double-move on one turn and finish on another. What is to stop this from being used as on a full attack "you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." No where does it specifically say that a full attack must take place in a single round, it could be spread across two rounds so long as it utilizes a standard action and a move action. Doing that is complete nonsense, absolutely. I just don't see jumping across multiple turns as being any less nonsensical without a specific exception allowing it.

A full round action and a standard and move action are not equivalent. They take your turn to do either option, but they are not the same thing. e.g, If I gain an extra standard action via mythic powers, and an extra move action via quick runners shirt, I do not have 2 full round actions I can play with.

Further, the rules allow for a full round action to span across two rounds in some instances, and not others - specifically not for a full attack action. But it is expressly allowed for a full round spell.

PRD wrote:


The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

Note that in this case again the full round action is not a standard + move. It is actually the equivalent of 2 standards.


Komoda wrote:
So a hasted character can't jump farther because their base speed did not change, just their current speed, right?

Well...

paizo PRD says wrote:
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet.

And...

paizo PRD says wrote:
All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Which means that haste increases your base land speed. This is further backed up by looking at the (optional) words of power spell subsystem which indicates the power word for haste increases base speed by 30 feet.

Interestingly encumbrance penalties do not affect base speed - but instead are based on base speed - which means that they don't affect jump.


Komoda wrote:
Ckorik wrote:


Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.

His base land speed isn't below 30 - ergo no penalty - that applies only to creatures who's base speed is low - his is crippled due to conditions and thus this rule doesn't apply.

So a hasted character can't jump farther because their base speed did not change, just their current speed, right?

Likewise, monks get a bonus to their jumping because their base speed is increased, but barbarians do not because only their speed (not base) is increased, correct?

I, personally, do not believe the rules make a distinction between speed and base speed. The only meaning base speed has is to determine your new speed when wearing medium/heavy armor or are under encumbrance. That is, the two terms are used interchangeably except in those specific tables to determine your new (base) speed. That new (base) speed then interacts with spells like haste.

EDIT:
Expiditous retreat also calls out specifically

Quote:


As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance (see the Acrobatics skill).

And slow says

Quote:


A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

So it seems, all speed changes, regardless of source, and regardless of whether they call out effecting base speed or not, affect your jumping distance.


You know, you could read the spell to answer that question.

Quote:
This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed.


bbangerter wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Ckorik wrote:


Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.

His base land speed isn't below 30 - ergo no penalty - that applies only to creatures who's base speed is low - his is crippled due to conditions and thus this rule doesn't apply.

So a hasted character can't jump farther because their base speed did not change, just their current speed, right?

Likewise, monks get a bonus to their jumping because their base speed is increased, but barbarians do not because only their speed (not base) is increased, correct?

I, personally, do not believe the rules make a distinction between speed and base speed. The only meaning base speed has is to determine your new speed when wearing medium/heavy armor or are under encumbrance. That is, the two terms are used interchangeably except in those specific tables to determine your new (base) speed. That new (base) speed then interacts with spells like haste.

EDIT:
Expiditous retreat also calls out specifically

Quote:


As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance (see the Acrobatics skill).

And slow says

Quote:


A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
So it seems, all speed changes, regardless of source, and regardless of whether they call out effecting base speed or not, affect your jumping distance.

If all speed changes, regardless of the source, affected jumping - then they wouldn't need to be called out in the spells that do so would they?


Also as to using Expiditious retreat...

Paizo PRD says wrote:

Expeditious Retreat

School transmutation; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range personal

Target you

Duration 1 min./level (D)

This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet.

Do you think your argument makes more impact when you deliberately leave out the most important line in the spell in regards to the topic discussed (base land speed)?


There's a little confusion I'm seeing.

A creature's base [type] speed is how much they can move in a single move action. A charge is double base. A withdraw is double base. A run is quadruple base. The maximum movement for the round is equal to the final modified number, based upon the type of action you're taking.

Therefore, anything that increases how far you can move in a single move action, increases the base movement speed of that type. So someone with stacked penalties have a base speed of 10 and thus can't move more than 10 feet in a single move action. They can take a run action, and be able to move 40 feet, and they'd take a -8 on their jump check, but that jump also cannot exceed that 40 feet of maximum movement.


Ckorik wrote:

Also as to using Expiditious retreat...

Paizo PRD says wrote:

Expeditious Retreat

School transmutation; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range personal

Target you

Duration 1 min./level (D)

This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet.

Do you think your argument makes more impact when you deliberately leave out the most important line in the spell in regards to the topic discussed (base land speed)?

So where is that effect on base speed in the slow spell? I didn't leave it out because I thought it would strengthen my argument to leave it out, I left it out because it was irrelevant. Does ET increase your speed? Yes. Do other things increase your speed? Yes. ET reminds us that things that increase your speed increase your jumping distance - that is what is relevant.

The chapter on magic talks about spells with opposite effects able to counter each other. If this was already in the rules why do spells like light and darkness, haste and slow, need to tell us that they counter each other? We already know the rule, but the reminder is useful as just that, a reminder of this rule.

These spells mention (remind us) of the rule regarding speed effecting jumping distance in the same way.

Grand Lodge

Byakko wrote:


This is because when you're just about to leave the ground, your center of mass could be slighter over the edge since your body is tilted forward. Similarly, when you land, your feet could be ahead of your center of mass.

In Pathfinder all characters are infinitely thin, occupying 1 quark (medium) of a 5 foot square and they have no 'behind' and are constantly facing every direction- but not getting all-round vision unless it specifically states they do and are squeezing if a quark defined as small or larger occupies their space.

So to jump a 10f pit you have to measure the exact final molecule of dirt that was constituting the 'ground' before the jump is made and then define the space between both sides using euclidean trigonometry theorem...

...

... and then you know if you've jumped the pit! See, Pathfinder is easy.


Ckorik wrote:
If all speed changes, regardless of the source, affected jumping - then they wouldn't need to be called out in the spells that do so would they?

They wouldn't 'need' to, and they don't 'need' to, but they do anyways as a reminder. In fact, the text reads exactly like a reminder rather than a necessary exception.

That is, unless you can explain that the words:

'As with any effect that increases your speed'

mean something other than what they say.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
If all speed changes, regardless of the source, affected jumping - then they wouldn't need to be called out in the spells that do so would they?

They wouldn't 'need' to, and they don't 'need' to, but they do anyways as a reminder. In fact, the text reads exactly like a reminder rather than a necessary exception.

That is, unless you can explain that the words:

'As with any effect that increases your speed'

mean something other than what they say.

When the preceding line says it increases your base speed - yes I think it's referencing that specific thing.

Why is that important? Well right back to the encumbrance rules...

Quote:

Armor and Encumbrance for Other Base Speeds

The table below provides reduced speed figures for all base speeds from 5 feet to 120 feet (in 5-foot increments).

Why "base speed" is so important for spells is in fact how it interacts with encumbrance.... take for instance our fighter in heavy plate (not encumbered):

Base speed 30: Wearing Armor: 20

Add haste + 30 feet

What's his movement now?

30+30 = 60 on the table we find:

55 ft.–60 ft. 40 ft.!!!! NOT 50. - in fact you'll note that a hasted full plate fighter - if he were to add 30 feet to his 20 speed he would end up at 50 feet of movement - but in fact he should be at 40.

That is why it's important and why the encumbrance rules don't modify base speed while the magic spells do.


Yes, you've found some inconsistencies in the use of the words speed and base speed. So, you can either believe those inconsistencies mean that your jumping ability is based on your 'base speed', no matter whether you actual speed is 100 feet per round, or 5 feet per round, or you can take those spells at their word and assume that jumping depends on your actual speed.

What do you think makes more sense?


_Ozy_ wrote:

Yes, you've found some inconsistencies in the use of the words speed and base speed. So, you can either believe those inconsistencies mean that your jumping ability is based on your 'base speed', no matter whether you actual speed is 100 feet per round, or 5 feet per round, or you can take those spells at their word and assume that jumping depends on your actual speed.

What do you think makes more sense?

We are in the rules forums - sense went over that way to the general or advice forums some 1200 posts ago in this very thread.


Since you have RAW inconsistency, you can't fall back on 'what the rules say' because they say both things.

Going by the Haste spell, actual speed, not base speed, modifies your acrobatics.

So, once again, since there is an inconsistency in the RAW, what do YOU think is the best way to resolve that inconsistency?


_Ozy_ wrote:

Since you have RAW inconsistency, you can't fall back on 'what the rules say' because they say both things.

Going by the Haste spell, actual speed, not base speed, modifies your acrobatics.

So, once again, since there is an inconsistency in the RAW, what do YOU think is the best way to resolve that inconsistency?

Specific trumps general - the best way to handle the specific language in the Haste spell is to assume it applies to the Haste spell.

Just like it would be wise to assume that encumbrance penalties (which act as armor check penalties) don't modify the base speed - because they rely on the base speed (unchanged) to determine the effective speed based on the chart provided.


Ckorik wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Since you have RAW inconsistency, you can't fall back on 'what the rules say' because they say both things.

Going by the Haste spell, actual speed, not base speed, modifies your acrobatics.

So, once again, since there is an inconsistency in the RAW, what do YOU think is the best way to resolve that inconsistency?

Specific trumps general - the best way to handle the specific language in the Haste spell is to assume it applies to the Haste spell.

Just like it would be wise to assume that encumbrance penalties (which act as armor check penalties) don't modify the base speed - because they rely on the base speed (unchanged) to determine the effective speed based on the chart provided.

Except that specific example, Haste, is expressing a general mechanic. Let's read it again:

Quote:
As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance

That is RAW, yes? That RAW says, quite specifically, that any effect that increases your speed affects your jumping.

You are contradicting that RAW, and doing so in a way that literally makes no sense.

So, once again, since there is a RAW contradiction, why go with the goofier interpretation?


_Ozy_ wrote:


You are contradicting that RAW, and doing so in a way that literally makes no sense.

So, once again, since there is a RAW contradiction, why go with the goofier interpretation?

No I'm going with the rules for encumbrance which specifically do not modify base speed - which specifically is called out for the acrobatics penalty.

You are using words from a spell to try and argue against the rules for a different subsystem because they fit your narrative. The rules for encumbrance completely break if you modify base speed, so what interpretation is more goofy?

1. The one where everything in the game works as written?

2. The one where a line from a spell breaks encumbrance tables?

You keep trying to justify this with a line of text when I've shown (twice now) encumbrance *uses* base speed to determine modified speed - if you actually are modifying base speed then the entire table is broken and they wouldn't need it.


_Ozy_ and I don't agree very often, but this time we do.


You are completely mischaracterizing my argument.

I'm not saying that all speed effects modify base speed. I'm saying that acrobatics is affected by actual speed, not base speed, because of the words in the Haste spell.

This doesn't modify the encumbrance tables in the least.


Komoda wrote:
_Ozy_ and I don't agree very often, but this time we do.

Well, I disagree with that! :) seriously though, I think we probably agree much more often than we disagree. But when we disagree, it can go on for pages...


_Ozy_ wrote:

You are completely mischaracterizing my argument.

I'm not saying that all speed effects modify base speed. I'm saying that acrobatics is affected by actual speed, not base speed, because of the words in the Haste spell.

This doesn't modify the encumbrance tables in the least.

Yes - yes it does - the encumbrance table lists base speed - and gives a modified speed.

If your modified speed is the new base speed - you'd need to look up the table again. That is why they are separate things - you'll also note further that exceeding encumbrance never modifies your speed further - rather once you reach a certain multiple of your max carry weight other effects apply.

Quote:

If your character is wearing armor, use the worse figure (from armor or from load) for each category. Do not stack the penalties.

Table: Encumbrance Effects Load Max Dex Check Penalty Speed Run
(30 ft.) (20 ft.)
Medium +3 –3 20 ft. 15 ft. ×4
Heavy +1 –6 20 ft. 15 ft. ×3

Note the bold - (30 ft) - this is seen no where else in the rules - because it's special.

Again

Quote:


Base Speed Reduced Speed
5 ft. 5 ft.
10 ft.–15 ft. 10 ft.
20 ft. 15 ft.
25 ft.–30 ft. 20 ft.

They don't separate out base speed and reduced speed to waste their breath - instead they'd just say reduce the characters speed by X


And for the bonus question:

Do you think a human fighter that (say wakes up from napping) is wearing no armor - base speed 30 - and gets a haste spell moves 30 additional feet per round?

Yes? So his new speed is 60.

Now he has a friendly mage toss 'Serrans Swift Girding' on him - and now he's in his full plate.

Based on the encumbrance tables - he should now have a speed of 40.

However under your idea the same fighter that is wearing his full plate (base speed 20) - gets haste and now has a base speed of 50.

Why is the 2nd example 10 feet faster - when if you don't use encumbrance as modifying base speed both examples work out to the same answer (40 feet).


Dude, you are misunderstanding my argument.

Everything you say can be 100% true.

It has nothing to do with acrobatics. Acrobatics is modified by your actual speed, not your base speed, and has no impact, whatsoever, on encumbrance.

Take a step back and read more carefully what I am saying.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Dude, you are misunderstanding my argument.

Everything you say can be 100% true.

It has nothing to do with acrobatics. Acrobatics is modified by your actual speed, not your base speed, and has no impact, whatsoever, on encumbrance.

Take a step back and read more carefully what I am saying.

Nope.

Quote:


Speed Bonus: If your base land speed is 40 feet or more, you gain a +4 racial bonus on Athletics checks to jump for every 10 feet by which your base land speed exceeds 30 feet. Likewise, you take a –4 racial penalty for every 10 feet your speed is below 30 feet.

Or are you trying to say you get a bonus if your base speed is higher than 40 - but take a penalty on any reduction of speed (not just base) - because that makes no sense at all, and when used with encumbrance (as previously stated) you could end up having to make weird calculations where the base speed is above 40 but your actual speed is below 30 (which for very high levels of base speed coupled with super heavy loads could still result in a bonus).


Ckorik wrote:

Nope.

Quote:


Speed Bonus: If your base land speed is 40 feet or more, you gain a +4 racial bonus on Athletics checks to jump for every 10 feet by which your base land speed exceeds 30 feet. Likewise, you take a –4 racial penalty for every 10 feet your speed is below 30 feet.

*sigh*

And that directly contradicts what Haste says. So, once again, and realizing this has nothing to do with encumbrance, we can choose the RAW that makes sense, or the RAW that doesn't.

I have no idea why you're set on the latter.

Quote:

Or are you trying to say you get a bonus if your base speed is higher than 40 - but take a penalty on any reduction of speed (not just base) - because that makes no sense at all, and when used with encumbrance (as previously stated) you could end up having to make weird calculations where the base speed is above 40 but your actual speed is below 30 (which for very high levels of base speed coupled with super heavy loads could still result in a bonus).

NO!

Dude, stop talking about 'base speed'. I'm not talking about base speed. Forget about base speed.

Forget about encumbrance. Nothing about what I'm saying has any impact on, or involves encumbrance.

Your actual speed impacts your jump check.

That's it. That's all I'm saying. Calculate your speed exactly how you've always done it, using base speed, encumbrance, magical enhancement, everything. Then, once you're done, you have an actual speed, yes? This is what you use to move around the board.

It's this speed that affects your jump check.

Not sure why it's hard to grasp this. Does it conflict with some part of RAW? YES that's the whole point. RAW conflicts on this issue, so choose the interpretation that makes sense.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

Nope.

Quote:


Speed Bonus: If your base land speed is 40 feet or more, you gain a +4 racial bonus on Athletics checks to jump for every 10 feet by which your base land speed exceeds 30 feet. Likewise, you take a –4 racial penalty for every 10 feet your speed is below 30 feet.

*sigh*

And that directly contradicts what Haste says. So, once again, and realizing this has nothing to do with encumbrance, we can choose the RAW that makes sense, or the RAW that doesn't.

I have no idea why you're set on the latter.

Quote:

Or are you trying to say you get a bonus if your base speed is higher than 40 - but take a penalty on any reduction of speed (not just base) - because that makes no sense at all, and when used with encumbrance (as previously stated) you could end up having to make weird calculations where the base speed is above 40 but your actual speed is below 30 (which for very high levels of base speed coupled with super heavy loads could still result in a bonus).

NO!

Dude, stop talking about 'base speed'. I'm not talking about base speed. Forget about base speed.

Forget about encumbrance. Nothing about what I'm saying has any impact on, or involves encumbrance.

Your actual speed impacts your jump check.

That's it. That's all I'm saying. Calculate your speed exactly how you've always done it, using base speed, encumbrance, magical enhancement, everything. Then, once you're done, you have an actual speed, yes? This is what you use to move around the board.

It's this speed that affects your jump check.

Not sure why it's hard to grasp this. Does it conflict with some part of RAW? YES that's the whole point. RAW conflicts on this issue, so choose the interpretation that makes sense.

Except that's not what acrobatics says - it even lists the bonus as racial. I don't see how two lines of text from spells (a section of the rules that literally say 'spells change the rules of the game follow the text') are supposed to make you ignore that base speed is used everywhere else in the game that talks about speed and movement - including the acrobatics section.

The bonus or penalty is even listed as a racial bonus - why exactly would a racial bonus be affected by a modified speed?

(because a races speed is the base speed unless modified by feats/spells - but I know you didn't want me to say that - because base speed is so important to how the entire encumbrance section works).

You seem to be getting upset - we can simply agree to disagree if this distressing to you - in all honestly the times where this will affect anyone's game is minute.


Ckorik wrote:
Except that's not what acrobatics says - it even lists the bonus as racial. I don't see how two lines of text from spells (a section of the rules that literally say 'spells change the rules of the game...

Because those spells indicate that a general RAW exists that is in conflict with the RAW of the acrobatics text.

It's not that those spells are providing an exception, they are stating how jumping works in general. And those statements say that jumps are modified by speed, and any modifications to speed.

Everyone admits there is a conflict here, so you're not telling anyone new information by saying 'Except that's not what acrobatics says'.

We all know this.

The text for acrobatics is in conflict with the general rule described in those spells, and furthermore, it makes less sense.

So, once again, choose the RAW that makes sense, not the one that doesn't.

P.S. it's generally foolish to assign emotional states to people discussing things on a message board. Trust me, bolding and exclamatory statements are purely used for emphasis, not because I'm 'distressed'.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Except that's not what acrobatics says - it even lists the bonus as racial. I don't see how two lines of text from spells (a section of the rules that literally say 'spells change the rules of the game...

Because those spells indicate that a general RAW exists that is in conflict with the RAW of the acrobatics text.

It's not that those spells are providing an exception, they are stating how jumping works in general. And those statements say that jumps are modified by speed, and any modifications to speed.

Everyone admits there is a conflict here, so you're not telling anyone new information by saying 'Except that's not what acrobatics says'.

We all know this.

The text for acrobatics is in conflict with the general rule described in those spells, and furthermore, it makes less sense.

So, once again, choose the RAW that makes sense, not the one that doesn't.

P.S. it's generally foolish to assign emotional states to people discussing things on a message board. Trust me, bolding and exclamatory statements are purely used for emphasis, not because I'm 'distressed'.

Ok fair enough.

I did some checking into the progression from 3.5 to pathfinder and how this all interacts.

The language about base speed and racial bonuses all was introduced by the PDT intentionally (this was an area of the rules they didn't cut and paste) - the Haste and Slow spells are cut and paste.

I submit that as evidence the Haste and Slow spells are an error - and the intention of the rules was in fact to use base speed as meaningful - considering the numerous places they had to add it in and make it work.

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and Fighter B don't have the same speed - I don't accept that your view 'makes more sense' - in fact because it produces a situation where the exact same fighter can have two different speeds purely based on when the armor was put on - I submit it makes less sense to take haste and slow as definitive.

That and they are the only two spots in the rules where 'base speed' wasn't added in (as said above).


Ckorik wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Except that's not what acrobatics says - it even lists the bonus as racial. I don't see how two lines of text from spells (a section of the rules that literally say 'spells change the rules of the game...

Because those spells indicate that a general RAW exists that is in conflict with the RAW of the acrobatics text.

It's not that those spells are providing an exception, they are stating how jumping works in general. And those statements say that jumps are modified by speed, and any modifications to speed.

Everyone admits there is a conflict here, so you're not telling anyone new information by saying 'Except that's not what acrobatics says'.

We all know this.

The text for acrobatics is in conflict with the general rule described in those spells, and furthermore, it makes less sense.

So, once again, choose the RAW that makes sense, not the one that doesn't.

P.S. it's generally foolish to assign emotional states to people discussing things on a message board. Trust me, bolding and exclamatory statements are purely used for emphasis, not because I'm 'distressed'.

Ok fair enough.

I did some checking into the progression from 3.5 to pathfinder and how this all interacts.

The language about base speed and racial bonuses all was introduced by the PDT intentionally (this was an area of the rules they didn't cut and paste) - the Haste and Slow spells are cut and paste.

I submit that as evidence the Haste and Slow spells are an error - and the intention of the rules was in fact to use base speed as meaningful - considering the numerous places they had to add it in and make it work.

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and...

You haven't swayed me, but you make a fine point.

Sometimes, I hate this rules system.


Ckorik wrote:

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and Fighter B don't have the same speed - I don't accept that your view 'makes more sense' - in fact because it produces a situation where the exact same fighter can have two different speeds purely based on when the armor was put on - I submit it makes less sense to take haste and slow as definitive.

That and they are the only two spots in the rules where 'base speed' wasn't added in (as said above).

The fact that you think I disagree with you on encumbrance demonstrates that you really don't understand what I'm saying.

Fighter A and Fighter B have the exact same speed.

Furthermore, both Fighter A and Fighter B have the same increase to their jumping ability, correct?


Just to collect a few James Jacobs posts from a 6 year old thread:

starting here

Quote:

I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.

I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.

Quote:
Quote:

Kaisoku wrote:

So, evidence suggests that your "base speed" in this case would be the speed you wrote on your character sheet. Simple as that.
This!

Again, logic and common sense should not be shunned when it comes to figuring out awkward and conflicting RAW.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and Fighter B don't have the same speed - I don't accept that your view 'makes more sense' - in fact because it produces a situation where the exact same fighter can have two different speeds purely based on when the armor was put on - I submit it makes less sense to take haste and slow as definitive.

That and they are the only two spots in the rules where 'base speed' wasn't added in (as said above).

The fact that you think I disagree with you on encumbrance demonstrates that you really don't understand what I'm saying.

Fighter A and Fighter B have the exact same speed.

Furthermore, both Fighter A and Fighter B have the same increase to their jumping ability, correct?

No - they wouldn't based on your own words. As you seem to not understand what I'm saying I'll attempt to lay it out - for the example I'm going to use 'speed' as you claim it works.

Human Fighter A is nude. He has a speed of 30.

Human Fighter B is in full plate armor. He has a speed of 20 based on the encumbrance table which says speed of 30 with full armor equals a final speed of 20. Both fighters for this discussion have strength to wear the armor and no encumbrance other than the armor.

Human Fighter A runs into battle - on round one he has haste cast on him. His speed is now 30+30 = 60. On the second round of combat - another wizard casts 'Serrans Swift Girding' on him - and now he's in his full plate. Looking at the encumbrance table we find that wearing full plate from a starting speed of 60 gives you a final speed of 40.

Human fighter A now has a speed of 40 - following the encumbrance rules - using speed only as a factor (ignoring base speed).

Human Fighter B runs into battle and has haste cast on him. His speed is now 20+30= 50 feet. Because he is already wearing full plate and we are ignoring 'base speed' we don't recalculate his final speed.

Human fighter B now as a speed of 50 - following the haste rules because his encumbrance didn't change (ignoring base speed).

Does that help make it clear what I'm trying to say? We don't recalculate encumbrance on someone when they have Haste cast on them - but we do if they suddenly are wearing armor - if we use the base speed rules and modify fighter B's base speed before re-calculating encumbrance we'd have the same speed on both fighters - but if we ignore 'base speed' - we end up with a situation where Fighter B is better for having his armor on before haste is cast - which is silly.

Second part of your question: "they have the same jumping ability"

Not if you ignore base speed.

As stated above Fighter A ends up with a speed of 40 - and a +4 to jump. Fighter B ends up with a speed of 50 - and a +8 to jump. Ignoring 'base speed' both fighters are taking a -4 to jump when wearing full plate (non-hasted) - and a further -6 due to armor check penalty, for a -10.

If you use 'base speed' both fighters gain a +4 to jump from haste (because it calls out giving a jump bonus so we make the assumption that it alters base speed) - using base speed neither fighter has a penalty to jump while wearing armor except what the armor check penalty already applies and that is a rather important thing.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Just to collect a few James Jacobs posts from a 6 year old thread:

starting here

Quote:

I'm 99% sure "base land speed" means the same as "land speed." But it applies to your land speed at the time you make the jump. You wouldn't get the bonus when you're standing still.

I agree that it's worded awkwardly, but in cases like this it's best to apply a dose of logic and common sense; if someone were moving faster than someone else when they jumped, logically they would go further than the slower person.

Quote:
Quote:

Kaisoku wrote:

So, evidence suggests that your "base speed" in this case would be the speed you wrote on your character sheet. Simple as that.
This!
Again, logic and common sense should not be shunned when it comes to figuring out awkward and conflicting RAW.

James Jacobs is not a rule person - takes pains to make sure you know his words don't define rules - and hates when his posts are used to prove a rule does anything.

He runs his games to have fun first and is very much a Rules as Intended guy - which I respect.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Seriously?

We are still doing this?

Really?

Is there no other silly pedantic thing to argue about?

How about a rousing conversation about falling Paladins? Fighters versus Wizards? Goblin babies? Hands?


Ckorik wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and Fighter B don't have the same speed - I don't accept that your view 'makes more sense' - in fact because it produces a situation where the exact same fighter can have two different speeds purely based on when the armor was put on - I submit it makes less sense to take haste and slow as definitive.

That and they are the only two spots in the rules where 'base speed' wasn't added in (as said above).

The fact that you think I disagree with you on encumbrance demonstrates that you really don't understand what I'm saying.

Fighter A and Fighter B have the exact same speed.

Furthermore, both Fighter A and Fighter B have the same increase to their jumping ability, correct?

No - they wouldn't based on your own words. As you seem to not understand what I'm saying I'll attempt to lay it out - for the example I'm going to use 'speed' as you claim it works.

I understand exactly what you're saying. You are misinterpreting what I've been saying, as I've tried to tell you for the last several posts.

If you ask me a question, and I answer it, don't tell me that I answered it wrong based on your misinterpretation of what I've been saying.

I'm telling you, fighter A and fighter B have the same speed, because what I've been saying has jack-all to do with calculating encumbrance speeds.

All I've said is that your actual speed affects your jumping modifier.

That's it.

Your refusal to accept this doesn't actually change my claim. I don't particularly care whether you think that means base speed is the same as actual speed or not. That's irrelevant to my claim. Call them the same, call them different. I don't particularly care.


Ckorik wrote:

James Jacobs is not a rule person - takes pains to make sure you know his words don't define rules - and hates when his posts are used to prove a rule does anything.

He runs his games to have fun first and is very much a Rules as Intended guy - which I respect.

I'm not using him as the final authority, I'm using him to further illustrate the concept that throwing out common sense, especially in the face of poorly worded or conflicting RAW is a rather foolish thing to do.


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Ckorik wrote:
Human Fighter A is nude.

Explain further.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Johnny_Devo wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Human Fighter A is nude.
Explain further.

I'm pretty sure alcohol is involved. Possibly bets as well.


_Ozy_ wrote:

You don't land 5 feet away from the center of your square, you land 5 feet away from the start of your jump, which is at the edge of the pit.

And since jump distances are actually measured from the start of your toe to the back of your heel, you clear 5 feet when you jump 5 feet.

How exactly does counting from heel to toe work in game though?

If I as a medium creature roll an acrobatic check of 0, I end up in the pit? And if I roll -1 I end up where I was?

If a colossal creature rolls a result of 0, it moves forward multiple squares?


Rikkan wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

You don't land 5 feet away from the center of your square, you land 5 feet away from the start of your jump, which is at the edge of the pit.

And since jump distances are actually measured from the start of your toe to the back of your heel, you clear 5 feet when you jump 5 feet.

How exactly does counting from heel to toe work in game though?

If I as a medium creature roll an acrobatic check of 0, I end up in the pit? And if I roll -1 I end up where I was?

You fail the jump check, so you fall into the pit. If you fail by less then 5, you get a reflex save to grab the edge. DC 20.

Quote:
If a colossal creature rolls a result of 0, it moves forward multiple squares?

Sure. Calculate it's stride, is that unusual? Does a colossal creature even need to jump a 5' pit when it's stride is ~16'? Do you make your players roll to jump over an 8" crack in the ground?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I also once again ask you to answer the question of the fighter in plate mail using the encumbrance chart and your rules - and explain to me why a fighter that starts combat without armor moves slower once the armor is put on, than the fighter that starts combat with the armor on and is given haste.

Until you can answer why Fighter A and Fighter B don't have the same speed - I don't accept that your view 'makes more sense' - in fact because it produces a situation where the exact same fighter can have two different speeds purely based on when the armor was put on - I submit it makes less sense to take haste and slow as definitive.

That and they are the only two spots in the rules where 'base speed' wasn't added in (as said above).

The fact that you think I disagree with you on encumbrance demonstrates that you really don't understand what I'm saying.

Fighter A and Fighter B have the exact same speed.

Furthermore, both Fighter A and Fighter B have the same increase to their jumping ability, correct?

No - they wouldn't based on your own words. As you seem to not understand what I'm saying I'll attempt to lay it out - for the example I'm going to use 'speed' as you claim it works.

I understand exactly what you're saying. You are misinterpreting what I've been saying, as I've tried to tell you for the last several posts.

If you ask me a question, and I answer it, don't tell me that I answered it wrong based on your misinterpretation of what I've been saying.

I'm telling you, fighter A and fighter B have the same speed, because what I've been saying has jack-all to do with calculating encumbrance speeds.

All I've said is that your actual speed affects your jumping modifier.

That's it.

Your refusal to accept this doesn't actually change my claim. I don't particularly care whether you think that means base speed is the same as actual speed or not. That's irrelevant to my claim. Call them the same, call...

So you are saying if you ignore encumbrance completely - and base speed - then your idea makes more sense.

Because everything you've claimed breaks encumbrance - and the only way the fighters have the same speed in my question is if you ignore encumbrance - which also affects the acrobatics modifiers - as I've shown previously ignoring base speed in my question results in different modifiers for two fighters with full plate and haste.

Unless you - once again - ignore another section of the rules.

So to 'make more sense' you are:

* ignoring encumbrance
* ignoring base speed
* ignoring the fact that the jump modifier is a racial bonus
* ignoring the fact that haste and slow are enhancement bonuses which shouldn't really interact with a racial modifier in any way
* ignoring that the haste and slow spells were cut and pasted from 3.5
* ignoring that base speed was added by pathfinder

I get it - yup makes more sense... got'cha.

Shadow Lodge

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Chorik, If someone is wearing plate armor such that his speed is 20, then has haste cast on him, his speed becomes 40, not 50. [I]Haste[/] limits all new move speeds to double that of what they were before casting, capping out at +30; it doesn't refer to base speeds at all.


Ckorik wrote:
So you are saying if you ignore encumbrance completely - and base speed - then your idea makes more sense.

That isn't even close to the same zip code as to what I'm saying. So no.

What I said is that your interpretation of how speed interacts with encumbrance is 100% irrelevant to how speed interacts with acrobatics.

So, you pick how you want speed to work with encumbrance. Tell me how it works. I'll agree with you 100%, mostly just to shut you up.

And then we can move on to how it works with acrobatics, which is that your actual speed affects your acrobatics modifier.

And that breaks encumbrance exactly never.

So, how about you stop telling me what I'm saying, and listen to what I'm saying.

Either that, or I could start doing the same you, and then we'll make even less progress.

Silver Crusade

Rikkan wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

You don't land 5 feet away from the center of your square, you land 5 feet away from the start of your jump, which is at the edge of the pit.

And since jump distances are actually measured from the start of your toe to the back of your heel, you clear 5 feet when you jump 5 feet.

How exactly does counting from heel to toe work in game though?

If I as a medium creature roll an acrobatic check of 0, I end up in the pit? And if I roll -1 I end up where I was?

If a colossal creature rolls a result of 0, it moves forward multiple squares?

Toe to heel, not heel to toe.

But, again, the game uses an abstraction because, for the purposes of movement, a character isn't a 5'9" human with an 8" long foot. It is an undefined point in space. When you start trying to apply real world physics to the game it breaks down, because the rules weren't written to be an accurate simulation of physics.

Also I left this up in my browser for hours, wonder if it'll still be pertinent when I hit submit?

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