# What is the DC to leap across a ten foot wide pit?

### Rules Questions

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On a longjump you jump before your toes cross the line, and you're measured to the closest part to the line, aka heels. Jumping 5ft would mean that there is 5ft from the line you didn't cross before jumping, to the back of your heel from where you landed your jump.

thus jumping 5ft should indicate that your jump cleared 5ft. That's how the term jumping 5ft is used. I'm not aware of any jump that measures from toe to toe to decide how far you jumped.

So the DC to jump a 5ft pit is 5 because you need only clear 5ft. And jumping with a result of 5 is 5ft, since that's how far you jumped.

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Komoda wrote:
But the DC to jump a 5' pit is 5 AND the movement of a skill check of 5 is 5'. Both things cannot exist at the same time. There is no question that the rules were written that way and were not compatible.

The rules do not say where the jump is measured from. They say that the DC of the jump is equal to the length of the jump. And since unopposed skill checks are meet or exceed rather than exceed, the jump is clearly not measured where you suppose it is.

You can either keep using your logic that is proven to not work, or you can use the logic that does work and is confirmed in the FAQ.

If you want to try to jump as far as you can, your jump distance is your check result.

If you want to jump a specific amount, the distance to clear is the DC and you either make it or fall short.

Jump DC (running start) = (number of squares you must be airborne for) * 5
Jump DC (standing start) = (number of squares you must be airborne for) * 10

Squares you do not need to be airborne for do not count for DC.

It's not even squares. You can have an 8ft pit and the end square be one you can't end in, it's still only a DC 8 for a running start to clear the pit, even though you'd need to move 15ft to get to a square you can end your turn in.

What should be a 6 second consideration that is dealt with when level 1 players have just started their adventure and want to get inside a dungeon with a hole in the floor has been a year long 1000 post epic.

Do you like your players? DC 10

Do you like arguing with your players? DC 11

Do you dislike your players? DC 15

Do you hate your players? The other side of the pit that appears to be 10' away is actually an illusion that they never thought to test by throwing a pebble at it. The floor of the pit that appears to be 10' below is also an untested illusion. The first character attempting to jump across the pit falls 1,000' to his/her death. In a cavern full of ravenous ghouls. And a rust monster.

Note that I would reserve the last option for players who did something truly awful, like steal one of my dice...

BigNorseWolf wrote:

If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.

not really... there's a minimum amount of effort you need to make a jump.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.

not really... there's a minimum amount of effort you need to make a jump.

No there isn't, at least not in any published rules.

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Holy crap why did this thread get brought back up again?

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This is my interpretation as a GM. Your game is your game and you can run it how you want.

Think about this. If your player rolls an 11 on his jump check, and jumps 11 feet, does she clear the 10' pit? Yes. Therefore any roll greater than or equal to 11 will clear the pit. Where they land all depends on their roll.

So, what about a roll of a 10. A roll of a 10 means the player jumps exactly 10 feet. Provided the character jumps right from the edge of the pit, her feet would not land on the other edge of the pit. However, she could grab the edge of the pit. That's where the DC 20 Reflex save for failing by 4 or less comes in.

GM Hands of Fate wrote:

This is my interpretation as a GM. Your game is your game and you can run it how you want.

Think about this. If your player rolls an 11 on his jump check, and jumps 11 feet, does she clear the 10' pit? Yes. Therefore any roll greater than or equal to 11 will clear the pit. Where they land all depends on their roll.

So, what about a roll of a 10. A roll of a 10 means the player jumps exactly 10 feet. Provided the character jumps right from the edge of the pit, her feet would not land on the other edge of the pit. However, she could grab the edge of the pit. That's where the DC 20 Reflex save for failing by 4 or less comes in.

FAQ wrote:
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.

GM Hands of Fate wrote:

This is my interpretation as a GM. Your game is your game and you can run it how you want.

Think about this. If your player rolls an 11 on his jump check, and jumps 11 feet, does she clear the 10' pit? Yes. Therefore any roll greater than or equal to 11 will clear the pit. Where they land all depends on their roll.

So, what about a roll of a 10. A roll of a 10 means the player jumps exactly 10 feet. Provided the character jumps right from the edge of the pit, her feet would not land on the other edge of the pit. However, she could grab the edge of the pit. That's where the DC 20 Reflex save for failing by 4 or less comes in.

yeah, that goes against what the FAQ says.

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Which is his right as a GM. So long as it is explained to the players as such.

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It's amazing how irresistible it is for people to continue arguing about this even though a ruling was given months ago.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Which is his right as a GM. So long as it is explained to the players as such.

Exactly though like all house rules make sure the players are aware of the change.

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claudekennilol wrote:
Holy crap why did this thread get brought back up again?

One might say it got jumpstarted.

People in this thread realize that the numbers in the game are abstract right.

Like, when you actually roll a 13 for a total of 18 it doesn't mean that your character moves exactly 18 feet- it's a game and we're imagining everything.

Forget jumping DC for a moment. What is the AC to hit a goblin dog? Does this comment also spawn a huge thread? No? Why not?

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Holy crap why did this thread get brought back up again?
One might say it got jumpstarted.

A lot of people are jumping to conclusions.

I'm hopping we can keep it civil.

People in this thread realize that the numbers in the game are abstract right.

Like, when you actually roll a 13 for a total of 18 it doesn't mean that your character moves exactly 18 feet- it's a game and we're imagining everything.

Forget jumping DC for a moment. What is the AC to hit a goblin dog? Does this comment also spawn a huge thread? No? Why not?

Mostly because we can pretty much all agree on the AC of a goblin dog and what it means.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Irontruth wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Holy crap why did this thread get brought back up again?
One might say it got jumpstarted.

A lot of people are jumping to conclusions.

I'm hopping we can keep it civil.

It is a leap of faith to not just skip over this thread.

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:

If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.

I think if you searched back through this thread you would find that *every* argument was used.

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
What should be a 6 second consideration that is dealt with when level 1 players have just started their adventure and want to get inside a dungeon with a hole in the floor has been a year long 1000 post epic.

I laughed. I cried. I tried to explain it to my family and received only blank stares, and vague threats of institutionalizations. Would read again.

This thread has made me realize that if there were forums when Monopoly came out we would have 2000 post treatises on if you always collected 200 when you past go.

KingOfAnything wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Holy crap why did this thread get brought back up again?
One might say it got jumpstarted.

A lot of people are jumping to conclusions.

I'm hopping we can keep it civil.

It is a leap of faith to not just skip over this thread.

I wouldn't gambol that too many people are paying much attention though.

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Ckorik wrote:

This thread has made me realize that if there were forums when Monopoly came out we would have 2000 post treatises on if you always collected 200 when you past go.

Of course you don't. Sometimes you proceed directly to jail. :)

Of course, the actual funny part is that virtually no one plays RAW Monopoly.

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I prefer my monopoly medium-rare.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

This thread has made me realize that if there were forums when Monopoly came out we would have 2000 post treatises on if you always collected 200 when you past go.

Of course you don't. Sometimes you proceed directly to jail. :)

Of course, the actual funny part is that virtually no one plays RAW Monopoly.

They funny part is no one plays RAW pathfinder - even PFS has it's own homebrew rules.

dragonhunterq wrote:

People in this thread realize that the numbers in the game are abstract right.

Like, when you actually roll a 13 for a total of 18 it doesn't mean that your character moves exactly 18 feet- it's a game and we're imagining everything.

Forget jumping DC for a moment. What is the AC to hit a goblin dog? Does this comment also spawn a huge thread? No? Why not?

Mostly because we can pretty much all agree on the AC of a goblin dog and what it means.

In the same way that no one grappled because it was silently banned in 3.5, so we should ban jumping over things.

dragonhunterq wrote:

People in this thread realize that the numbers in the game are abstract right.

Like, when you actually roll a 13 for a total of 18 it doesn't mean that your character moves exactly 18 feet- it's a game and we're imagining everything.

Forget jumping DC for a moment. What is the AC to hit a goblin dog? Does this comment also spawn a huge thread? No? Why not?

Mostly because we can pretty much all agree on the AC of a goblin dog and what it means.

AC 13? Clearly that means I need to roll at least a 4 with my THAC0 17 to hit it. /s

dragonhunterq wrote:

People in this thread realize that the numbers in the game are abstract right.

Like, when you actually roll a 13 for a total of 18 it doesn't mean that your character moves exactly 18 feet- it's a game and we're imagining everything.

Forget jumping DC for a moment. What is the AC to hit a goblin dog? Does this comment also spawn a huge thread? No? Why not?

Mostly because we can pretty much all agree on the AC of a goblin dog and what it means.

Most people knew what the correct answer was, and many stated it here in this thread.
The FAQ confirms that as the correct answer.

Yet there are still a few people complaining that the rules in the CRB aren't clear on the subject.

That's like 99% of the worlds population knowing the answer to "What is two plus two", but that 1% saying "This is confusing, the wording is misleading." Rather than complaining that the rules aren't clear on the topic, they should be sitting back and saying to themselves, "I'm going to forget everything I thought I knew about jump DC's, and reread the rules (knowing before hand the correct answer) and see how the rules lead to that answer. I failed to understand it the first time, let me correct and improve my reading comprehension on this topic."

Two plus two is five, for sufficiently large values of two.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.
I think if you searched back through this thread you would find that *every* argument was used.

Including arguments about the DC to jump a succubus.

*A high acrobatics score is definitely recommended.

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Snowlilly wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.
I think if you searched back through this thread you would find that *every* argument was used.

Including arguments about the DC to jump a succubus.

*A high acrobatics score is definitely recommended.

But a low Acrobatics skill may lead to a preferred outcome.

The fact that we have a 25 page argument about the DC to jump over a 10' feet is a pretty good point to show that the complexity of mechanics on some rules need to be toned down a lot.

gustavo iglesias wrote:

The fact that we have a 25 page argument about the DC to jump over a 10' feet is a pretty good point to show that the complexity of mechanics on some rules need to be toned down a lot.

Maybe?

It's not like the mechanic in question is actually complex.

I don't know if it is "complex", but damn sure that it's interpretation can be "controversial". We have 1200+ posts about it.

pH unbalanced wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.
I think if you searched back through this thread you would find that *every* argument was used.

Including arguments about the DC to jump a succubus.

*A high acrobatics score is definitely recommended.

But a low Acrobatics skill may lead to a preferred outcome.

No, this is definitely a situation where being acrobatic is a plus.

Snowlilly wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

If you search back through this thread you'll find the argument was regularly used.
I think if you searched back through this thread you would find that *every* argument was used.

Including arguments about the DC to jump a succubus.

*A high acrobatics score is definitely recommended.

I believe flexibility is modeled by Escape Artist in PF.

Nefreet wrote:
If I couldn't explain myself in the previous 23 pages, I'm not going to be able to do it now.

Give it a try.

gustavo iglesias wrote:
I don't know if it is "complex", but damn sure that it's interpretation can be "controversial". We have 1200+ posts about it.

Or it indicates that in online debates people sometimes dig in their heels, refuse to budge, and spend a lot of time and energy on not budging.

I think it's dc 10 and you move 3 squares.

The dc is based on the amount crossed, which is 10 feet. The 3 squares is how you cross it.

Seems pretty easy.

Cavall wrote:

I think it's dc 10 and you move 3 squares.

The dc is based on the amount crossed, which is 10 feet. The 3 squares is how you cross it.

Seems pretty easy.

It is that easy. That is what the rules said. That is what the FAQ said. But some people think that makes the DCs too low and scramble for some justification to make them higher.

If I were to read it strictly "RAW", even with the FAQ, I'm actually on Nefreet's side... I mean, the FAQ is contradicting itself: It says that it's a DC 10 to clear a 10ft gap, but it also indicates that the gap in question is actually more than 10ft. That or we're actually traveling 17 and a half ft and not 15ft (still only 10ft in the air, though).

But I'm far too lazy to actually apply that in the actual game, so I'll settle for a DC = (distances of the gap in ft).

Rub-Eta wrote:

If I were to read it strictly "RAW", even with the FAQ, I'm actually on Nefreet's side... I mean, the FAQ is contradicting itself: It says that it's a DC 10 to clear a 10ft gap, but it also indicates that the gap in question is actually more than 10ft. That or we're actually traveling 17 and a half ft and not 15ft (still only 10ft in the air, though).

But I'm far too lazy to actually apply that in the actual game, so I'll settle for a DC = (distances of the gap in ft).

Wait, what!? in what way does the FAQ indicate the gap is greater than 10'? Or that you are travelling more than 15'?

I strongly suggest you read it again.

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The main difficulty seems to be that people are automatically adding to the DC the distance traveled on the ground to the distance jumping through the air, without any real justification.

The fact that this would make the DCs variable depending on the creature's size apparently doesn't bother them all that much.

I think it's that almost every distance in Pathfinder is measured between centers of the squares, and thus people use that for jump DCs, too (without really thinking about it).

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I'm just pushing for 2000 posts.

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thorin001 wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I think it's dc 10 and you move 3 squares.

The dc is based on the amount crossed, which is 10 feet. The 3 squares is how you cross it.

Seems pretty easy.

It is that easy. That is what the rules said. That is what the FAQ said. But some people think that makes the DCs too low and scramble for some justification to make them higher.

No one thought the math was hard. The question amounted to what distance was being "cleared" by the jump? The obstacle (DC 10)? The distance your feet must have moved (more than 10 since your feet aren't in the pit at the end, so probably 11)? Or enough that your "space" no longer intersects with the pit (DC 15 for standard medium creatures)? Any one would be simple but without further guidance "distance travelled" could really mean any of those.

The FAQ made a determination, the "losing" parties said, "Welp, guess I was wrong. I can handle that or house rule it." Personally I was about 60/30/10 for DC 10/15/11 and think this clarification was less game breaking but much more common than most FAQs so it was worthwhile.

So to any "winning" parties, if you have honest questions about the basis for any arguments after browsing the history, great. It could be a fruitful discussion of how people see things. Comments about how it's ridiculous to see it the other way are even less fruitful once the argument has been settled.

this issue brought up is having an errata to make it more clear. I've yet to get an answer on my question of how to word this so it's more clear for those that didn't read it the right way to know the right way from just the new text. Many are saying that the text is already very clear, and that you're basically intentionally making things harder for yourself if you didn't get the correct interpretation from the current text.

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