Looking through the archetypes it seems that there is a general consensus that certain class features are of equivalent benefit/detriment to each other.
(This is all stated with the caveat that more than 1:1 ratio of class features are evaluated when archetype selection is taken into effect)
I was wondering what thoughts other players and DMs had about having interchangeable class features- not trying to upset the balance of the game (like a full casting wizard, that gives up familiar for a druids animal companion and school abilities for Channel positive energy- there is clearly a discard prioritizing munchikism there), and what class abilities seem to be of equivalent value.
On a perusal it seems that 1d6 of sneak attack dmg seems to be the equivalent of a bonus feat. A Hex is apparently worth 1d6 of Channel Energy. Domains and Animal Companions seem to be relatively equivalent (which seems odd...), Bombs and Sneak Attack are roughly interchangeable. And Martial Flexibility is apparently only 1/2 as good as Sneak Attacks.
I am wondering if anyone else has explored this or created some different archetypes or house rules based on this? Because a Cleric with 2 domains and Hexes (replacing Channel Energy) seems like a really cool Pagan Priestess kinda thing but the established rules don't have anything that really fits that. (I mean... Witch, but not a DIVINELY inspired witch).
Well, there is the shaman. No domains, but their hexes are a mix of witch hexes and oracle mysteries.
Domains and Animal Companions seem to be relatively equivalent (which seems odd...)
I guess it's not about domain powers, which are very uneven, but about replacing bonus spells - and possibility of gaining spell trigger/spell completion use of exotic spells, that makes it somewhat equivalent.
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We've got a house rule when it comes to Rogue genius game's content (linked). Basically, pick a starting class, give up one archetype of abilities, and take another from a different class. Not all combinations are even (i.e. ranger giving up woodland spellcaster and picking up fighter's battle master), but its a good starting point. We have more than a few custom hybrids based on this.
Edit: To be more clear, look at their content, it shows rough equivalence between classes.
I tried to make something along these lines once. It wasn't a total system, but rather a really complicated class which was based on mixing and matching things. It's flawed and I'll probably never revise it like I planned, but for what it's worth, here's the Renaissance man
While metrics are useful, keep in mind that the whole package matters most. As a result, the power level of some features fluctuate depending on what class has them. For example, the Shift conjuration (teleportation) wizard school power and the Dimensional Slide arcanist exploit are powerful abilities. However, they're on classes that do not value mobility so much, which keeps their power in check. If put on a fighter class, both those 1st abilities could easily become overpowered unless the class made significant tradeoffs. Consequently, this is also why both those abilities scale based on class level.
While metrics are useful, keep in mind that the whole package matters most. As a result, the power level of some features fluctuate depending on what class has them. For example, the Shift conjuration (teleportation) wizard school power and the Dimensional Slide arcanist exploit are powerful abilities. However, they're on classes that do not value mobility so much, which keeps their power in check. If put on a fighter class, both those 1st abilities could easily become overpowered unless the class made significant tradeoffs. Consequently, this is also why both those abilities scale based on class level.
This is very true. For a system like this to really work without putting the entire balance burden on the GM, you need some way to account for synergy. This could be done by separating class features into categories, sort of like the race builder. Even then, you'd have to be pretty nuanced to account for the various ways in which class features can work together.
For example, something like smite evil which overcomes DR is almost exclusively a martial benefit. Blasting spells and anything that improves them is a magic benefit. Sneak attack is an all around offense ability that works dangerously well with both, even they don't synergize with each other. You'd need to have a subcategory for martial abilities, and one for magic abilities, in addition to the overarching offense category.
It could be done, it would just have to be complex and very well thought out. And even then, like the race builder, you'll always have something that's more of a guideline than a perfect indicator of power and balance.
With the Shaman, I find that that is more of a Druid-Witch (you know- the hippy witch who is all into blessings of the earth mother and being at one with her patchouli)
The Witch as a class is more of the- Arcane might to overcome my foes! (in a WickWitWest or Into the Woods kind of way).
And a cleric with hexes would feel more like a witch who views her magic as a divine gift and uses it for support/heals... ok... like a druid but the nature theme doesn't have to be there. Lol.
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Actually Pseudos idea seemed the coolest/easiest way of accomplishing it. It relies on the class having interesting package combos (unfortunately it looks like a Hexen Cleric would have no domains, the hexes of a witch AND channel energy... which could be cool- but might be a little powered up with the stuff it does. Could be a cool though)
Yeah, there are some VERY overpowered combinations:
Alchemist without bombs, with barbarian rage for one (which stacks with mutagens)
Synthesist with no spells, but fighter training.
Rangers with no spellcasting, and fighter training, which stacks with favored enemy.
It's usually a good jumping off point, even if it isn't balanced.
Also remember you've got Pathfinder Unchained's variant multiclassing to help weigh things out.
Yes, looking at it this way you see new possibilities: Hexen Rogues seem like a cool idea for something like a Witch's agent.
Knight Avenger Cavaliers FINALLY make the COOL part of being a Paladin something accessible for less LG characters!
The more I look at these possibilities the more excited I become about new methods of constructing classes with a nice archetype for something, and for new possibilities for my group.
We have one player who favors the Oracle- but has always chosen things that give access to Sorc/Wiz spells... Well... Mystic Sorcerer would be the best of both worlds there.
Another player is ALWAYS and inquisitor but has NEVER cast a SINGLE inquisitor spell (I am not entirely sure he even considers using them at all) so getting rid of the spell casting isn't much of a sacrifice and could lead to having something like have more combat proficiency or something that could be utilized.