I'm glad to see it get a chance in the spotlight at all.
The problem with S&S is that, from the PCs' POV, the Thrune invasion is a blip. I don't think the PCs even know until halfway-or-so through Book 5, and the invasion is only the first third or so of Book 6.
I can't find this detailed write-up. The Inner Sea World Guide gives them the same four pages as everyone else gets. There's also a Player Companion. That's about it. They don't even have a Campaign Setting book...
They have a decent number of archetypes and feats, I suppose, although not that much more than various others. I can run some numbers on that tomorrow, if necessary.
The only Hamatula Strike-related feats I can find are in C:EoD; can you tell me where you found the others?
Of the Module line, only three (No Response From Deepmar, Tower of the Last Baron, and Treasure of Chimera Cove) are even almost in Cheliax. Two are in Korvosa. The Pact Stone Pyramid and Entombed with the Pharaohs each have secondary Chelaxian antagonists. That's out of forty-five modules surveyed.
As far as I can tell from a rough once-over, Cheliax is in line behind Varisia, Osirion, and the Worldwound in terms of support, with competition from the Shackles and Numeria (and possibly Razmiran and Andoran).
Hamatulatsu is in Inner Sea World Guide, Hamatulatsu Robe is in Inner Sea Combat, and ditto Hamatulatsu Master. So an extra Feat, magic item, and archetype.
And you're not quite looking at it in context. It may be behind the OTHER overly utilized countries, but it's certainly ahead of a large number of places that are seldom even mentioned, and don't have a lot of detail about them.
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I see. None of those have anything to do with Hamatula Strike, though - hence my confusion. I understand now. ^_^
And I definitely agree that there are other places that need attention. I'm just hoping that, for being as important as it is, Cheliax finally gets the direct support that Osirion or the Worldwound has gotten. A Campaign Setting book, maybe an updated Player Companion (although I'm a little afraid of them going through and "fixing" all the wonderfully unique or experimental design in C:EoD).
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Cheliax again? Hell again? Bad guys?
Big load of meh.
Eh, you can do better
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Is there any official confirmation that Hell's Vengeance will "undo" the results of Hell's Rebels? (Or even that it's a sequel?)
All I've seen is that you're expected to play evil PCs. Has there been any further information?
Hey folks! Just got back from Paizocon, and Rob and I will be, over the next few days/weeks as we're getting back into the swing of things addressing more information about Hell's Rebels/Hell's Vengeance elsewhere on these boards, but I DO want to try to nip this one in the bud.
Hell's Vengeance does NOT "undo" Hell's Rebels. The events of Hell's Rebels are intended to create lasting and positive (for the good guys) changes to Cheliax in your game once you run the AP, and Hell's Vengeance won't change that.
And yes indeed, Hell's Vengeance is our first foray into an AP where the players play evil characters. I know this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's an aspect of the game that we've never really directly supported with an AP. Just as I knew not everyone would be into a Pirate game, or a Sci-fi game, or Jade Regent... Hell's Vengeance is firmly in our "experimental AP" category. The one before (Hell's Rebels) and the one after (not yet announced but will be at Gen Con) will be more traditional in a lot of ways.
We'll hopefully have Hell's Vengeance section for folks to ask questions soon... in the meantime I'm always ready and eager to answer questions over on my Ask James thread.
I have no problem with two back to back Cheliax APs, even if both have related themes, what really bothers me (and will make re-evaluate my subscription) is the evil party thingy.
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Every single time they announce an AP, no matter what it is, people say "I'm cancelling my subscription!" By the time they've announced it, it's already way too late for them to change it because a few forum denizens threaten to cancel. I don't know what people are attempting to accomplish.
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I'm more worried about HOW evil you'll have to be in Hell's Vengeance. I can handle playing someone who's ruthless and harsh, like Darth Vader, Lady or Julius Caesar (in my humble opinion the EPITOME of the Lawful Evil alignment), but I draw a line at sadistic stuff like rape, torture or systematic slaughter. I sincerely doubt Paizo would go that far, since they're awesome people, and most sane people would be uncomfortable with that kind of stuff anyway, but part of me feels like if I don't cross that line, the most common response I'll get is "You're not evil, you're Lawful Neutral."
I'm more worried about HOW evil you'll have to be in Hell's Vengeance. I can handle playing someone who's ruthless and harsh, like Darth Vader, Lady or Julius Caesar (in my humble opinion the EPITOME of the Lawful Evil alignment), but I draw a line at sadistic stuff like rape, torture or systematic slaughter. I sincerely doubt Paizo would go that far, since they're awesome people, and most sane people would be uncomfortable with that kind of stuff anyway, but part of me feels like if I don't cross that line, the most common response I'll get is "You're not evil, you're Lawful Neutral."
I don't think they'll go that route, if only because that sort of thing isn't typically part of diabolical evil. Oh, the diabolists would use those things if they thought it best, but they don't usually start there. I suspect that, at their most relatively benign, the PCs will uphold and support House Thrune's rule. They'll do things like crush rebellions, recapture escaped slaves, create sedition in neighboring countries, and the like. You know, banal evil.
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As people seem to be chiming in on their opinions of Hell's Vengeance, I figured I'd give my own two cents. *chink*
I hate running games for evil characters. Utterly, completely despise it. For a one-off? Sure, I can manage that...but only barely. So from the word go, Hell's Vengeance is on thin ice with me.
The only way I will even bother maintaining my subscription through Hell's Vengeance is if Paizo is giving me a fair number of Good-aligned NPCs and monsters for the game. Otherwise...I will cancel, even if it is with a good deal of regret. By and large I agree with a good many design decisions of Paizo, and love most of their Adventure Path plot arcs. This one...is pushing my comfort zone enough that I am extremely hesitant about continuing.
On the other hand, a sufficiently awesome Adventure Path after Hell's Vengeance will likely get me back, so... *shrugs*
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I'm more worried about HOW evil you'll have to be in Hell's Vengeance. I can handle playing someone who's ruthless and harsh, like Darth Vader, Lady or Julius Caesar (in my humble opinion the EPITOME of the Lawful Evil alignment), but I draw a line at sadistic stuff like rape, torture or systematic slaughter. I sincerely doubt Paizo would go that far, since they're awesome people, and most sane people would be uncomfortable with that kind of stuff anyway, but part of me feels like if I don't cross that line, the most common response I'll get is "You're not evil, you're Lawful Neutral."
There will be lines we won't cross, for sure, but it's not something we'll sugar coat. Sexual violence will not be a part of Hell's Vengeance, as a (hopefully obvious) example.
It won't be for everyone, in other words. And this AP, more than any other, will require you as the GM to know your players and know their interests, limits, and preferences. The Player's Guide for Hell's Vengeance will cover that topic.
I'm broke, so, no Ap for me. But I am certainly interested.
The thing to recall about an AP is that it is a framework for your own adventure. Let us take, for instance, Wrath of the Righteous. There are plenty of people who feel the Mythic rules are not viable. However, I enjoy certain aspects of it - like in Book 4, where the PCs go to an Abyssal Realm - and have chosen to insert that into my Runelords game (the PCs go to the Abyssal city in order to get information on the Runeforge's location, and are put to work eliminating a rival Demon Lord's illegal mining operation in exchange for that information).
Likewise, you can take sections of Hell's Vengeance and use it in your own game. You can alter it so that the game has a more "good" aspect to it. You can even use it with a group of LN heroes who are trying hard not to succumb to evil and are trying to thwart the diabolists in Cheliax. It is your choice to do what you want with the AP. You buy it, you use it as you want.
I doubt I'll be running this AP. My groups don't meet often, and Hell's Rebels is more the cup of tea of the one group that MIGHT be finished with their current AP (Runelords) by the time Hell's Rebels wraps up though I admit that is doubtful (they like staying in one area and building up that area by investing their treasure - stuff like their own banks and orphanages and the like). But I'll still buy it. And I might even work to integrate the two APs. I'll have to wait and see.
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Tangent, everything you wrote is absolutely true and I agree with you 100%. The problem is, some people (myself included) use the adventure path to reduce the amount of work we have to do to run an adventure. The further the adventure is from anything I can use; the less it's useful to me. Yes the framework is great and yes there's stuff I can use for other adventures, but primarily I buy the AP to run it "as is" or "out of the box". I don't have a lot of time to modify it extensively.
In the case of an adventure path designed for an evil party like Hell's Vengeance, my concern is it will be more effort than it's worth to convert it into something that's usuable. I don't allow evil characters in my games at all and if I need to completely change the plot to make it work, that means I won't buy it. If I can't continue to say "No evil characters" and run this with Neutral characters, then it's not something I'll use and I'll drop the subscription for 6 months. That easy. Shrug. But for now I'll hang around and see.
Just my 2 copper pieces of course.
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Really what confuses me about subscribers is that I'd stick around to first part at least before unsubscribing <_< Heck, I'd get them anyway even if I'm not planning to run them since I like reading material even if I don't get to use them
Its kinda like people who unsubscribed from Iron Gods without giving it a chance, saying "Nope, I won't have any interested in it no matter how well it is done" is kinda... Eh, you know.
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Iron Gods is my favorite adventure path, even more than Skull and Shackles and Reign of Winter :-)
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Cheliax isn't my cup of tea. An Evil campaign also isn't something I'm interested in running (after all, if I run an AP, I'm going to sink 2-3 years into it).
Both of those things I'm willing to chalk up to "not every AP is for me." However, part of the attraction of Pathfinder is the constant churn in theme/location. So I guess my question is, are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?
-Skeld
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Iron Gods is my favorite adventure path, even more than Skull and Shackles and Reign of Winter :-)
I was very wary of Iron Gods, before it started I didn't think I'd be interested at all. The first part was good, but from part 2 onwards, it just blew me away. Definitely my favourite of the APs I've read. (Now I just need to convince my players to give it a go... I'm hoping my enthusiasm for it will be enough!)
So back on topic... I'm not currently convinced that Hell's Vengeance will work for me, but I'm absolutely going to get it and read it. Past experience tells me that it's worthwhile.
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Cheliax isn't my cup of tea. An Evil campaign also isn't something I'm interested in running (after all, if I run an AP, I'm going to sink 2-3 years into it).
Both of those things I'm willing to chalk up to "not every AP is for me." However, part of the attraction of Pathfinder is the constant churn in theme/location. So I guess my question is, are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?
-Skeld
We really are, yes.
It's arguably our most popular nation, and it's one we actually HAVEN'T done much with. It's past time, in my opinion, to explore Cheliax fully... that said, it's worth noting that the regions of Cheliax we focus on in Hell's Rebels are not what I'd call "classic Cheliax," since Kintargo is a much more free-thinking region than most of the rest of the nation.
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are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?We really are, yes.
Okay, that's a bit of a gutpunch, but okay. Thanks for being straight, and now instead of the denial phase of mourning, I will start to try to move on to the acceptance phase.
Will Hell's Vengeance also focus on a very tightly defined geographic locale like Rebels, or will it range over a larger area?
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However, part of the attraction of Pathfinder is the constant churn in theme/location. So I guess my question is, are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?I would also really appreciate a straight answer to this from the department of expectation management.
To be precise about where the APs go... spoilering for those who want to keep those details a surprise...
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Sorry Cap, looks like no Galt! for you. ;)
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are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?We really are, yes.Okay, that's a bit of a gutpunch, but okay. Thanks for being straight, and now instead of the denial phase of mourning, I will start to try to move on to the acceptance phase.
Will Hell's Vengeance also focus on a very tightly defined geographic locale like Rebels, or will it range over a larger area?
Hell's Vengeance will go all over the place in Cheliax. With the notable exception of not going up to the Kintargo region.
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It's straight enough. I'll start sucking it in and preparing to wade into Cheliax for a year now.
Can you at least promise that the AP after Hell's Vengeance won't be in Cheliax? ;(
You'll get to find out what the AP after Hell's Vengeance is in a few months; we'll announce it at Gen Con. I'm not really interested in derailing those who ARE excited about Hell's Vengeance right now by already starting to tease the next one. You'll need to be patient.
Really what confuses me about subscribers is that I'd stick around to first part at least before unsubscribing <_< Heck, I'd get them anyway even if I'm not planning to run them since I like reading material even if I don't get to use them
Its kinda like people who unsubscribed from Iron Gods without giving it a chance, saying "Nope, I won't have any interested in it no matter how well it is done" is kinda... Eh, you know.
In my case...I'm going to read the description. Normally I actually read the adventures, even if I don't use them (I'm almost finished with my second AP ever...and I have almost all of the volumes). On the other hand, Giantslayer has been a resounding 'meh' for me, but it hasn't been enough for me to quit my sub. If it looks like I won't get the creatures and themes I want from the descriptions? I'll just cancel. That's all there is to it for me.
I will not unsubscribe I will get it and read it, and enjoy reading it then put it on my bookshelf with the rest of my collection. For many reasons I'm not gonna stop now and I certainly can't play all of them anyhow. Will I run an evil campaign? Probably not but it does sound like a good read.
I think the interesting thing about the so called experimental AP's is that by nature you either love the theme or hate it. So for every person out their who says no way I will never play evil or sci-fi or mythic campaign another player is waiting with longing and desire to do just that.
As for the traditional ones like the giants while less people scream foul I will never play a giant campaign it is harder to get people super excited about yet another giant based campaign.
So while I certainly may be wrong I feel that sales of these AP's remain steady whether they are experimental or traditional with some opting in and others opting out on a case by case basis with the overall numbers remaining close from AP to AP. And then their are people like me that can't bare to see a missing number in a collection that is otherwise perfect. :)
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Cheliax isn't my cup of tea. An Evil campaign also isn't something I'm interested in running (after all, if I run an AP, I'm going to sink 2-3 years into it).
Both of those things I'm willing to chalk up to "not every AP is for me." However, part of the attraction of Pathfinder is the constant churn in theme/location. So I guess my question is, are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?
-Skeld
We really are, yes.
It's arguably our most popular nation, and it's one we actually HAVEN'T done much with. It's past time, in my opinion, to explore Cheliax fully... that said, it's worth noting that the regions of Cheliax we focus on in Hell's Rebels are not what I'd call "classic Cheliax," since Kintargo is a much more free-thinking region than most of the rest of the nation.
Probably too late to say this (also, I'm just one guy, so...), but if at the end of the Year of Cheliax we haven't got a gazetteer style book for the place I'll be very perturbed. Maybe even cross.
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Probably too late to say this (also, I'm just one guy, so...), but if at the end of the Year of Cheliax we haven't got a gazetteer style book for the place I'll be very perturbed. Maybe even cross.Cheliax isn't my cup of tea. An Evil campaign also isn't something I'm interested in running (after all, if I run an AP, I'm going to sink 2-3 years into it).
Both of those things I'm willing to chalk up to "not every AP is for me." However, part of the attraction of Pathfinder is the constant churn in theme/location. So I guess my question is, are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?
-Skeld
We really are, yes.
It's arguably our most popular nation, and it's one we actually HAVEN'T done much with. It's past time, in my opinion, to explore Cheliax fully... that said, it's worth noting that the regions of Cheliax we focus on in Hell's Rebels are not what I'd call "classic Cheliax," since Kintargo is a much more free-thinking region than most of the rest of the nation.
This.
Actually, weren't there one announced at about the same time as the Andoran book, or did I dream that?
Probably too late to say this (also, I'm just one guy, so...), but if at the end of the Year of Cheliax we haven't got a gazetteer style book for the place I'll be very perturbed. Maybe even cross.
I'm erring towards disgruntled.
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Actually, weren't there one announced at about the same time as the Andoran book, or did I dream that?
I believe you're thinking of Hell Unleashed. ^_^
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Hell's Vengeance will go all over the place in Cheliax. With the notable exception of not going up to the Kintargo region.are we really going to dwell in Cheliax for a year?We really are, yes.Okay, that's a bit of a gutpunch, but okay. Thanks for being straight, and now instead of the denial phase of mourning, I will start to try to move on to the acceptance phase.
Will Hell's Vengeance also focus on a very tightly defined geographic locale like Rebels, or will it range over a larger area?
Um...they won't be sniffing around Westcrown, will they?
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I'm more worried about HOW evil you'll have to be in Hell's Vengeance. I can handle playing someone who's ruthless and harsh, like Darth Vader, Lady or Julius Caesar (in my humble opinion the EPITOME of the Lawful Evil alignment), but I draw a line at sadistic stuff like rape, torture or systematic slaughter.
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Yeah, I think the problem with this announcement, in part, was that for nine months or so, we've been chomping at the bit for "What's next, what's next, what's next??" and then it's, "oh the same". (I know there will be differences, but it's still two Cheliax in a row.) I think a quick one-two-punch announcement might have worked better here.
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Yeah, I think the problem with this announcement, in part, was that for nine months or so, we've been chomping at the bit for "What's next, what's next, what's next??" and then it's, "oh the same". (I know there will be differences, but it's still two Cheliax in a row.) I think a quick one-two-punch announcement might have worked better here.
Nah, that's been going on for years, every time they announce an AP, it's always in Golarion. Yawn.
In a more serious tone, I think the location of an AP is not what defines it. The first three Pathfinder APs have all been Varisia, and you can't really say they are the same in any meaningful way. And then there was also Shattered Star which again was very different.
There has been some trend of doing "the location X AP", with paths like Carrion Crown and Mummy's Mask, but I really believe that each Golarion region could tell many very different stories.
That was Grand Moff Tarkin, Adam. He outranked Vader, so if Vader were thinking, "This is going too far," his adherence to lawful evil meant that he couldn't do anything about it.
That said, I agree with you that Vader was perfectly OK with systematic slaughter. After all, he killed the jedi kids. Anyone who can cold-bloodedly walk into a room of children and slaughter them mercilessly is way past the moral event horizon, to the point where I'm pissed off he got to come back as a force ghost and get forgiven by Luke.
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In a more serious tone, I think the location of an AP is not what defines it. The first three Pathfinder APs have all been Varisia, and you can't really say they are the same in any meaningful way.
I agree that the location of an AP does not *necessarily* have to define it, and that there is absolutely the possibility to tell different stories within the same country, yes. However,
1) At the time of the first three APs we didn't really know much about Golarion as a whole. Since then, we've gotten a whole new world opened up to us, and over the last 5+ years we've gotten accustomed to country-hopping to provide variety. It's not 2007 anymore, and Golarion is a much bigger place now. Three consecutive APs in Varisia was done once, but it would definitely feel odd now.
2) From the little we *do* know of HR vs HV so far, they do seem to be the same in various meaningful ways *past* the country. Dealing with devils and House Thrune seems to be a very major theme in both. They both take place during the same rebellion as a backdrop. It's as if Crimson Throne and Second Darkness had been about Thassilon and the Runelords. They weren't; they came up with their own plotlines. Hopefully, whenever more details are published about HR and HV, they will focus on saying what is *different* about them, because right now, other than the Evil AP angle, they sound very similar.
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Whole lotta people need to learn to relax, take a joke, and remember that imaginary people doing imaginary evil things doesn't hurt anything in reality.
I'm more worried about HOW evil you'll have to be in Hell's Vengeance. I can handle playing someone who's ruthless and harsh, like Darth Vader, Lady or Julius Caesar (in my humble opinion the EPITOME of the Lawful Evil alignment), but I draw a line at sadistic stuff like rape, torture or systematic slaughter.Ummm... didn't he blow up his daughter's home planet?
And Cæsar bragged in De Bello Gallica about the millions of Gauls he had his legion systematically slaughter.