Would you and how would you?
Got a Dwarven Cleric using Visions of Madness to floor saves and then Planeshift to banish foes to Hell (or wherever). If the foe has no way of getting back, would you rule that he was effectively defeated and reward full xp?
Yes...and then have it bite him in the rear when those enemies think "Well, I am stuck here anyway, mght as well make a deal".
Consistently sending people to realms filled with powerful creatures means that at some point, one will get lucky and turn the attention of those powerful creatures towards you. Just sending enemies that are painfully above APL will discourage him from continuing this practice.
Kudos to this cleric for the awesome imagery.
Kudos to this cleric for the awesome imagery.
Pretty great character, actually. Glory and Madness, plays as a fanatical mentor to the rest of the group - summons a little, buffs a lot and uses Planeshift on 'hard targets'. It never ceases to amaze me the uses an ability like Visions of Madness can be put to and as a Dwarf he has almost unlimited uses of it.
He was actually originally built as evil for a Way of the Wicked campaign, but its getting rebuilt for the purposes of the upcoming Hell's Rebels AP.
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With you saying that the cleric uses it on 'hard targets' it's sounding like something that he does often or it's at least the 'go to' when the party is faced with a powerful, single threat.
Sure, award him XP for using it. Though also at some point hit him with it as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I had a character Plane Shift a Wraith to the Positive Energy Plane once. That was fun.
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Yes...and then have it bite him in the rear when those enemies think "Well, I am stuck here anyway, mght as well make a deal".
Consistently sending people to realms filled with powerful creatures means that at some point, one will get lucky and turn the attention of those powerful creatures towards you. Just sending enemies that are painfully above APL will discourage him from continuing this practice.
Not really. Maybe none of them have anything to offer. Devils don't just make deals with anyone, and they are likely to twist the words of any contract/deal so they dont have to actually engage some powerful mortals.
It also assumes that whatever devil is met, will actually be strong enough to give the PC's any problems.
To answer the OP's question you do not need to kill an enemy to get XP for it.
Yes...and then have it bite him in the rear when those enemies think "Well, I am stuck here anyway, mght as well make a deal".
Consistently sending people to realms filled with powerful creatures means that at some point, one will get lucky and turn the attention of those powerful creatures towards you. Just sending enemies that are painfully above APL will discourage him from continuing this practice.
Not really. Maybe none of them have anything to offer. Devils don't just make deals with anyone, and they are likely to twist the words of any contract/deal so they dont have to actually engage some powerful mortals.
It also assumes that whatever devil is met, will actually be strong enough to give the PC's any problems.
To answer the OP's question you do not need to kill an enemy to get XP for it.
Still...statistics. Particularly when they are throwing the most powerful enemies they face into this situation. As well as the general rule 'the GM can turn a one in a million into a one in one'.
And just because the enemy couldn't cut a deal, it doesn't mean that the outsiders are not turning their attention to the party. Devils, while they appreciate the possibility of free souls, are most likely not happy with people breaking the system and throwing trash on their doorstep (I think the psychopomps would end up giving them flack). And if the enemies are sent to the Abyss, demons are controlled enough by their whims to check out this person that their victims are cursing with their dying breath.
Best place to send them would be Abaddon though. Daemons would most likely ask few questions, and just enjoy the snack. The planes of water and fire also seem like a bit of a safe bet, since they are rather inhospitable.
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The most deadly place you can send people is probably the Positive Energy Plane. If they're at full health they die rapidly and almost unavoidably.
This. Inform your Cleric of this if he doesn't know.
It's also pretty thematic.
"DIE IN HOLY LIGHT, FOUL CREATURE!"
That's why my Sorceress Plane shifts her dominated enemies there on the last day of their binding. She just says she's sending them somewhere and *pop* problem solved. Unless it can survive in that environment. Then she does something else I suppose.
Using Plane Shift in this way is effective, but also means that the party misses out on loot...which should work to limit the frequency they use it.
Don't make up the amount of gold they lose out on.
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Spell still has a Will Save and SR required to be bypassed and cleric most likely can't use it more then few times.
Like Gilarius also pointed out. Enemies have gold and loot on them. Among other things, they might have quest items and civilians being grappled, etc. There are numerous moral and practical reasons why you do not wish to send every person to another Plane.
Yes...and then have it bite him in the rear when those enemies think "Well, I am stuck here anyway, mght as well make a deal".
Consistently sending people to realms filled with powerful creatures means that at some point, one will get lucky and turn the attention of those powerful creatures towards you. Just sending enemies that are painfully above APL will discourage him from continuing this practice.
Not really. Maybe none of them have anything to offer. Devils don't just make deals with anyone, and they are likely to twist the words of any contract/deal so they dont have to actually engage some powerful mortals.
It also assumes that whatever devil is met, will actually be strong enough to give the PC's any problems.
To answer the OP's question you do not need to kill an enemy to get XP for it.
Still...statistics. Particularly when they are throwing the most powerful enemies they face into this situation. As well as the general rule 'the GM can turn a one in a million into a one in one'.
And just because the enemy couldn't cut a deal, it doesn't mean that the outsiders are not turning their attention to the party. Devils, while they appreciate the possibility of free souls, are most likely not happy with people breaking the system and throwing trash on their doorstep (I think the psychopomps would end up giving them flack). And if the enemies are sent to the Abyss, demons are controlled enough by their whims to check out this person that their victims are cursing with their dying breath.
Best place to send them would be Abaddon though. Daemons would most likely ask few questions, and just enjoy the snack. The planes of water and fire also seem like a bit of a safe bet, since they are rather inhospitable.
I dont think the devils would care. They can let them die there, or they can trick them. I think statistically the odds are in the PCs' favor. I would not do it just to stop the PC's from using a good tactic. If it happens more than once the GM might start to get funny looks.
I also dont see the psychopomps as caring. Their bodies are there, not the souls. Devils dont get your soul just because they kill you, assming they would attack visitors.|
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they might have quest items and civilians being grappled, etc. There are numerous moral and practical reasons why you do not wish to send every person to another Plane.Used offensively Plane Shift only works on a single creature touched, it wont take anyone they are grappling with them.
I didn't imply that it would or wouldn't plane shift other people, but a simple general reason that it might not always be wisest choice of tactics.
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Get rid of XP, problem solved ;)
Using Plane Shift in this way is effective, but also means that the party misses out on loot...which should work to limit the frequency they use it.
Don't make up the amount of gold they lose out on.
That rather depends on what you are shifting. Plane Shift works best on low will save enemies, giant beasts, dinosaurs, constructs, purple worms, rogues etc. None of them normally have anything worth looting usually.
We are currently playing Wardens of the Reborn Forge and my oracle managed to dispatch both the purple worm and clockwork leviathan avoiding a pair of potentially very nasty fights.
As far as number of casts go at level 13 he has 8 level 5 and 5 level 6 spell slots so uses per day aren't much of a concern.
Great! That's an excellent use of a caster's high level spells. As a GM, that means you would have less available for the serious fights...
The OP seemed more concerned about it being used on BBEGs rather than a bunch of (powerful) minions, in which case losing out on loot is a serious drawback.
There are a lot of spells that can end an encounter on a failed save, so I don't see why plane shift should be considered different.
I wouldn't punish him too much for sending people to Hell. At least, he's roleplaying and sending them to Hell, mixing it with visions of madness and stuff. He could be sending them to the negative energy plane, where most, if not all, people would die. Actually, most people would die in the positive energy plane too (exploding for too much positive energy once they heal twice than max hp), and fewer people has spells readied to protect against positive energy.
So, I'll use it as a plot device. To bring back an interesting NPC, with an interesting Hell ally, which would make the campaign more interesting. Bringing "a powerful outsider" just to "punish" the player because he's using "too powerful combos" to "defeat" encounters isn't my cup of tea. Encounters are built with the sole purpose of being defeated. He did so, in a cool way. If you can take something out of that encounter to improve the campaign interesting plots, cool. If not, who cares? Would you bring something from hell to "punish" players if he uses Vision of Madness+ Hold Monster and coup de grace instead? Save or Die are part of the game. Planar shift is a SoD spell. Nothing wrong with that.
Yes
-Nearyn
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Combine Plane Shift with Reach Spell to make "Fancy Shift"
It's a great offensive spell.
Don't let the PCs forget that it has a Focus component. It might be tough to find the proper tuning forks, or to produce the correct one in combat (under duress).
Maybe the local vendor isn't comfortable attuning forks to Hell (or wherever).
Maybe the PCs get hit with the same tactic and 'lose' their one fork that's attuned to the material plane...