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Thinking of changing some things about consolidated skills. My list of changes;
1) Reinsert Craft. Appraise, and Knowledge(engineering) gets folded into it based on what you can craft. Includes but not limited to; Arms and Armor, Alchemy, Traps, Food, Construction, and Machinery.
2) Instead of getting 1/2 ranks and 1/2 Int per level characters get the full amount of ranks from their class and nothing from Int. I found that halving both the skills per level and the Int bonus to be kind of jarring and really limits odd number Int bonuses so I wanted to eliminate the Int Bonus altogether. This also makes negative Int not a factor. While this certainly devalues Int as a whole many of the skills, particularly with the readdition of craft (and potentially other knowledge based skills from third party products) Int is still pretty important as it covers over a third of the skills.
3) Because of third party classes I think classes should get a number of class skills equal to their class' ranks per level (2, 4 or 6) chosen between the skills that their normal class skills consolidate into.
4) Not using Traits. The most useful function of traits in terms of character development has been class skill creation. The consolidated skill list makes that powerful so I think when using consolidated skills I'll just stop using Traits.
5) Instead I'll steal from 5th edition and generate a list of 'proficiencies' that characters can gain. Characters have proficiencies equal to their Int bonus. This can buy new class skills, weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, languages, and tool bonuses to skills.
6) Dislodge the language per rank from Society. This has bothered me to no end. You can quickly explode into knowing every language in existance.
Any thoughts, suggestions or things I shouldn't do?
Something I've been thinking on Skill Consolidation.
Presume that you're in a system wherein Craft is the means of Magic Item creation and 'Blacksmithing' is being used to cover most arms and armor...
What sort of profession-style craft skill would making Bows and Arrows fall under?
Arms and armor. Although I haven't fully thought it out I would prefer to consolidate things regardless how much exact sense it makes.
How about Woodworking? You could also include clubs, staves, woodwind instruments and furniture in that skill.
So what, Dividing craft by building material groups?
Like stone, wood, metal, alchemy, machinery, food, ect?
Producing food and drink to a saleable standard is a profession, as mentioned all the way back in the CRB with Profession (chef). Other than that, yes, you could probably get away with just six or seven Craft skills, one each for a different material.
Producing food and drink to a saleable standard is a profession, as mentioned all the way back in the CRB with Profession (chef). Other than that, yes, you could probably get away with just six or seven Craft skills, one each for a different material.
Profession is already cut and filtered through other feats. Besides its more relevant for me to keep it as a craft skill because I use products that allow characters to craft wondrous food and drink and craft spell-like food from certain monsters.
That makes sense, then. Craft (Comestibles) perhaps then?
Alimentary, my dear Malwing. :)
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One thing I've been debating a lot, internally and externally, is " Instead of getting 1/2 ranks and 1/2 Int per level characters get the full amount of ranks from their class and nothing from Int. I found that halving both the skills per level and the Int bonus to be kind of jarring and really limits odd number Int bonuses so I wanted to eliminate the Int Bonus altogether." I know it makes INT very dumpable if you're not using any of the skills but I think that has the added benefit of making some classes less MAD.
It's not "very dumpable": it's pointless unless you're a wizard, a psion or you want Combat Expertise, which is not good game design in the slightest.
Isn't Charisma in the same boat?
Tell that to Knowledge and Craft Skills :P
I think it's fair to say that the sort of people who would floor Int in this system are unlikely to be the sort of people who pick up Knowledges and Crafts. You'd also have the issue that wizards and other traditionally brainy types will end up having far fewer academic skills than they would otherwise.
Isn't Charisma in the same boat?
Charisma is similar, yes, but bards, paladins, sorcerers, social rogues, people with spell-like abilities, undead and channelling clerics all use Charisma, as there's already enough feats out there to shift Charisma-based skill usages around if you feel so inclined. (Taunt is simply one example.)
Isn't Charisma in the same boat?Charisma is similar, yes, but bards, paladins, sorcerers, social rogues, people with spell-like abilities, undead and channelling clerics all use Charisma, as there's already enough feats out there to shift Charisma-based skill usages around if you feel so inclined. (Taunt is simply one example.)
Can't the same be said for INT? Craft is incredibly useful, and without it 1/3 of the consolidated skills use INT. There's a long list of non-spell class features that use INT. You get bonus languages based on INT.
Like Charisma it would be useless for anyone that's not using it for something or another as opposed to being forced to stay at 10 unless you're using it for something or another or you have enough class ranks per level to deal with it.
I've also had conflict with the idea that INT controls your physical skills but animals live on being competent through exception making the logic fall apart a bit.
There are certain rogue abilities that use Int: I'm not sure about other classes. I agree that Craft skills are useful - my group can barely go a single session without someone trying to build something, but I doubt my experience is typical.
You could try going down the 5E route and making Will saves against illusion, feeblemind, modify memory and the like be based on Int, not Wis, but other than that, I think you're seriously at risk of generating situations where there is no reason for non-spell-casters to not have statistics that would suit Lennie from Of Mice and Men.
There are certain rogue abilities that use Int: I'm not sure about other classes. I agree that Craft skills are useful - my group can barely go a single session without someone trying to build something, but I doubt my experience is typical.
You could try going down the 5E route and making Will saves against illusion, feeblemind, modify memory and the like be based on Int, not Wis, but other than that, I think you're seriously at risk of generating situations where there is no reason for non-spell-casters to not have statistics that would suit Lennie from Of Mice and Men.
Again, same with Charisma. Its either social skill or casting for it's natural uses so unless you have a class feature or something along those lines you just dump it.
As for the class features that use INT;
Arcane Accuracy (Magus Arcane, Magus class feature) Intelligence to hit as insight bonus 1 round uses arcane point
Bloodline Arcane (Sorcerer ACF, Sage ) use Intelligence instead of charisma to Sorcerer class features and effects
Tactical expertise (Cleric ACF Divine strategist 8) add intelligence to hit when flanking and on AoO, and 1/day (+1/day every 2 lvl) intelligence to a single d20 roll made as a readied action
Canny Defence (Duelist 1) Intelligence to AC while unarmored addition to dex, max 1 pr class level
Canny Defence (Magus, ACF Kensai 1) Intelligence to Ac while unarmored addition to dex, max 1 pr class level
Canny Defence (Magus, ACF Kapenia Dancer 1) as Duelist ability
Iaijutsu (Magus, ACF Kensai 7) Add intelligence to initiativ in addition to dex
Critical perfection (Magus, ACF Kensai 9) add intelligence to critical confirmation rolls
Superior reflexes (Magus, ACF Kensai 11) add intelligence to the no. of AoO pr round stacks with combat reflexes
Iaijutsu focus (Magus, ACF Kensai 13) Add Intelligence to dam in surprise round against flat footed foes
Kitsune Guile (Kitsune rogue1) add intelligence to bluff, diplomacy, disguise and sense motive
Perfect Recall (Alchemist ACF Mind Chemist 2) Add intelligence x2 to Knowledge checks, and intelligence checks to remember
Cruel Anatomist (Alchemist ACF Vivisectionist 3) Use Knowledge (nature) skill bonus to heal checks instead of Heal (not sure if using intelligence or wis)
Throw anything (Alchemist 1) Add intelligence to dam with any splash weapons
Improved Scroll casting (Wizards ACF Scroll master 10) use Intelligence and own Cl for scrolls
Hand of the apprentice (Wizard Universalist 1) use intelligence instead of dexterity for to hit with thrown weapons 3+int/day
Splintered Spear (Wizard wood specialist) make spear use intelligence instead of dexterity for to hit and intelligence to dam instead of strength 3+int/day
Power over Undead (Wizard necromancer 1) 3+intelligence turn attempt for command or turn undead only (DC 10+½ Wizard lvl +cha)
Domain of Razmir (Razmiran Priest 1, 5) Use Intelligence to chosen domain powers (Charm, Evil, Law and Trickery only)
White Hair (Witch ACF White Haired 1, 4) Use intelligence to dam with hair attack and Intelligence for CMB with Hair
Prehensile Hair (Witch Hex) hair limb that have a strength equal witches intelligence
Wand Mastery (Magus 3: Magus Arcana) Use intelligence for Wands DC instead of minimum to cast spell
Rod Wielder (Magus 3: Magus Arcana) Use intelligence to Caster level checks to overcome SR with rods
Rod Mastery (Magus 3:Magus Arcana) Use intelligence to Rod DC instead of minimum to cast spell
Canny Sleuth (Prestige Sleepless detective 1) add intelligence to sense motive, perception and diplomacy to gather information in addition to normal stats
Eye for detail (prestige: Shield/Grand Marshal 1) add intelligence to perception and sense motive in addition to wis
Arcane cloak (Magus 3: magus arcana) 1 arcane point to add Int to stealth and bluff to create a diversion to hide. For 1 min.
Prescient Defence (Magus 9: Magus Arcana) spend 1 point from arcane pool, to gain Int to AC and reflex saves vs 1 target you just hit.
Spell Shield (Magus 3; Magus Arcana) Spend 1 arcane point to gain Int as a Shield bonus to AC until end of next turn, doesn’t stack with shield
Ceaseless Observations (Investigator ACF Empiricist 2) Use Int instead of normal modifier for Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, and Diplomacy when gathering information.
Unfailing Logic (Investigator ACF Empiricist 4) Use 1 inspiration point to use Int instead of wis to saves vs. illusions that allow a save to disbelieve.
Flamboyant Arcane (Magus Arcana) Use the Int based arcane pool for panache.
Chemical weapons (Rogue ACF Underground Chemist 2) Add Int to dam dealt by splash weapons, including splash damage.
Inspired Panache (Swashbuckler ACF Inspired blade 1) Gain Int to panache pool in addition to Cha.
Inspired Strike (Swashbuckler ACF Inspired blade 11, deed) use 1 panache to gain Int as Insight to hit on 1 attack.
Stone Spirit (Witch ACF Mountain Witch 1) Select Hex’s from Shamans Stone Spirits and use Int for their DC
Spell Study (Wizard ACF 2, 6, 11, 16) 1/day Cast a bard, druid and cleric spells as a Wizard spell using Int for DC and effect.
Spirit Hex (wizard ACf Spirit Whisperer 5, 10, 15) Use Int for chosen Spirit Hex
Heavens: (Guided star) add Int to all cha based skills
Lore: (Benefit of wisdom) Int to all Int based skills.
Nature: (Friends to animals): Animals within 30 feet gain Wizards Int to their saves
Spirit Link (wizard ACf Spirit Whisperer 1, 8, 20) gain a Shaman spirit, greater spirit and manifestation and use Int for it’s abilities
Heavens 20: Manifestation gain Int to all saves.
Life 1: Spirit Channel energy 1+Int/day
And not to mention crafting gives mundane classes natural access to alchemical and food-based buffs and weapons.
I was taking it as given that wizards and magi used Intelligence by virtue of their classes. :)
Obviously, it's up to you what you do, but again I'd suggest tying some saves into Int or Cha to make them slightly less dumpable, e.g. illusions and assaults on memory, logic or reasoning for Int and attacks on your soul, emotional control or planar stability for Cha.
Actually the only reason why I'm hesitant is that in some games I use Sanity, Leadership or Relationships subsystems which use Charisma and devaluing INT would make it way less useful than Charisma.
Anything else that INT can cover that is valuable but not so damning to dump.
Illusion would be Int, because you can reason which ones are fake. Enchantments would be Wis (as normal), because you resist those with willpower.
Besides, I took the idea from 5th Edition, so I can't really claim any credit for it. :)
I came up with four suggestions to improve the usefulness of Intelligence if it doesn't add to skill points. Tell me what you think.
Double the Int modifier for Lore & Artistry (or Knowledges and Crafts), so that the traditional brainboxes are really good at them and the dunderheads are really bad. Obviously, this works better with a group that loves crafting things.
Retain Wisdom to Perception for passive checks, but if people want to actively look around, use the Int modifier instead (which harks after 3rd Ed's Search skill). Everyone likes Perception, so that could help.
Introduce Deduction checks (high DC Int checks) so that if people seem to be getting stuck on a particular part of the adventure, they can suddenly reason out a missing part of the puzzle. This is similar to the high DC Wisdom checks needed to avoid being surprised.
Finally, if a character has a Int of 12 or more, their class will never give less than 4 base skill points per level. That way, they're more versatile than people of average or low intelligence and they can also claim a different favoured class bonus from extra skill points.
The changes to saves are unlikely to happen. Mostly because it takes a bit more work to deal with. Particularly with third party spells and effects I'd have to repeatedly be asked 'what school is that effect' which would slow things down. It would have to be a base assumption of the game before I start spreading out saves like that.
Double the Int modifier for Lore & Artistry (or Knowledges and Crafts), so that the traditional brainboxes are really good at them and the dunderheads are really bad. Obviously, this works better with a group that loves crafting things.
Retain Wisdom to Perception for passive checks, but if people want to actively look around, use the Int modifier instead (which harks after 3rd Ed's Search skill). Everyone likes Perception, so that could help.
This might be too drastic. Several non-INT skills got folded into INT skills so INT skills would be extremely powerful when one of my arguments is that INT skills are already pretty powerful, I only single out Craft because reintroducing it leads to tangible gains like items so its arguably the most powerful skill even before accounting for Craft handling Appraise, Engineering, many Vehicle and Profession checks.
Introduce Deduction checks (high DC Int checks) so that if people seem to be getting stuck on a particular part of the adventure, they can suddenly reason out a missing part of the puzzle. This is similar to the high DC Wisdom checks needed to avoid being surprised.
This is more likely. Introducing a new skill that everyone would want to use. But my problem isn't really that there aren't useful adventuring skills under INT and investigation in general I already handle with knowledge skills rather than Wisdom. I use perception for noticing things by stimuli not logical deduction so adding that skill is likely very moot.
Finally, if a character has a Int of 12 or more, their class will never give less than 4 base skill points per level. That way, they're more versatile than people of average or low intelligence and they can also claim a different favoured class bonus from extra skill points.
From my point of view the main classes this effects are Wizards, Witches, Magi, Arcanists and Sorcerers. In the case of the full casters I don't think they really deserve more skills. They're already SAD classes that have a devotion to the study which does not necessarily mean they're more skillful in anything other than magic and have spells that completely disregard skill checks. They don't really need to be versatile in both skills and magic, it's one of the many reasons why Rogues are underpowered. Sorcerers and Magi I feel a bit more sorry for because Sorcerers shouldn't have had 2 ranks per level in the first place and Magus is a victim of INT Casters having their ranks per level based on their casting stat not how adept those classes should be at mundane skills. But I stand by my previous logic that these people are not necessarily adept at mundane skills because they are focused on learning casting, or in the Magus' case, magic and combat.
The idea that the higher intelligence characters are more versatile in mundane skills is also untrue in most of the game. Animals are the biggest example but most skillful classes don't even need intelligence past 10 to be relevant as they have 6 ranks per level before intelligence.
Well, unless you have any other ideas, I guess you're either going to have to stick with Int for skill points or make Int the weakest stat,
Well, unless you have any other ideas, I guess you're either going to have to stick with Int for skill points or make Int the weakest stat,
I wouldn't exactly call it the weakest stat. Under consolidated skills, not including Craft, INT is used for 1/3 of the consolidated skills representing 13 out of 31 skills that got folded in.(counting each knowledge skill separately)This includes 2 skills previously covered by a different ability score stat, Use Magic Device and Handle Animal. Not to mention languages
One thing I did have in mind was giving characters INT mod to class skills. Primarily because I work with a lot of third party things and the class skill list for consolidated skills is totally unfair, I needed class skill lists to be a bit less arbitrary so I thought why not allow INT mod to determine how many class skills you get based on what your normal class skills consolidate into. That way players don't have to ask me repeatedly what a class' consolidated class skills are, I don't have to make a new class skill list for each third party class for players to argue about, INT is still important and I don't have to half the power of things that grant skill ranks.
This does however make INT still a pain to dump so I'm reluctant unless I come up with some kind of extra function for Charisma.
This does however make INT still a pain to dump so I'm reluctant unless I come up with some kind of extra function for Charisma.
Why do you want another thing for Charisma? I thought you were trying to make Intelligence more relevant.
This does however make INT still a pain to dump so I'm reluctant unless I come up with some kind of extra function for Charisma.Why do you want another thing for Charisma? I thought you were trying to make Intelligence more relevant.
To clarify my points;
My stance on Charisma is that it doesn't do enough unless subsystems are involved.
My stance on Intelligence was that determining skill ranks per level is disproportionately harsh to classes that don't need it for class features and nonsensical in the rules due to the amount of skills it buffs in the consolidated skills list.
I also felt that using 1/2 INT per level for skills was awkward due to rounding.
I did not want INT to become completely irrelevant so reintroduced craft because it is incredibly powerful.
I feel that Charisma is the weakest mental ability and would not mind seeing INT as dumpable as Charisma. If INT keeps with relative power I'd only prefer it if Charisma was more relevant.
I feel that if INT did not control ranks per level then it would be as relevant as CHA as both have a large number of class features that use them and INT would still be more relevant given the number of skills it's needed for.
Wizards and Witch hurt the most from this but I don't think they needed help from mundane skills when they have that kind of spell list.
Technically Magus hurts the most from it. I'd consider possibly raising them up to 3 [or 4, your choice] skills per level with this change.
Warpriest, Magus and probably Fighter are my highest candidates for a boost.
Magus is a victim in all of this and his spells aren't versatile enough to make up for lack of mundane skills.
Warpriest I just cant gauge how weak or strong it is.
Fighter is just sad all around in terms of versatility.
I've been looking at some numbers and realized a few things.
First an 18 INT Wizard could max ranks into 16% of skills under normal skill rules (counting Profession and Craft as one skill each and adding Knowledge Psionics, and Autohypnosis) and with the changes I proposed they could max out about 14% of the skills. However the same Wizard with 18 INT can max 24% of all the skills so normal consolidated skill rules actually kind of buffs that particular Wizard.
Also INT commands about 43% of my proposed skill list representing 47% of the skills from the old list. I guess my goal was to give some kind of relevance to INT and I think needing it for nearly 50% of the skill list might do it.
I don't think I have to worry about dumb fighters, or at least not as much as I did before. I use a lot of things taht give boosts to fighters with high INT. But to be fair, I know smart fighters are around but I haven't seen one I haven't built IRL, and every guide I run into runs INT and/or Charisma into the ground. Charisma is generally first but INT isn't far behind. In fact I just looked up two guides and both of them suggest INT at 7 or 8, and I know my players frequent guides. I'm already swamped with dumb fighters.