I like the fact that the rogue really wants to "team up" with another character. Their strength seems to lie in being a huge force multiplier on top of someone else's actions, and really reinforces the whole flanking/sneak attack thing.
A teamwork feat rogue archetype would be cool to see. Get all Lies of Locke Lamora on it.
well, he definitely is more of an anvil now, he effectively either makes an opponent vulnerable or protects his allies from attacks. if he can full round sneak attack a target, he can easily move on to other opponents to spread the love.
move into a hamper and then next round give him - AC, then keep going.
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I highly disagree -- Minor Magic being at will makes a huge difference. Acid Splash or Ray of Frost are awesome for a sniper-type (make all your sneak attack damage Acid or Cold). Detect Magic or Prestidigitation for General Utility. Spark for setting off smokesticks or fuses. Ghost Sound for distractions (thus allowing Stealth).
Honestly I'd say Rogues can get more utility out of some cantrips than straight casters.
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As others have pointed out, I am very impressed with the Minor Magic and Major Magic abilities. I was personally thinking that acid splash and vanish are decent choices; go invisible, use a touch attack with no SR to sneak.
I had hoped for something along the lines of Arcane Trickster's impromptu sneak attack X times/day (maybe once at 5th, then another at 11th and 16th for those times when you're fighting something that's able to detect you no matter what, but the changes are improvements for sure.
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While I don't see building a build around Acid Splash - it'd be extremely handy to have the option. Not worth going out of your way for, but great in a surprise round since you're only giving up a single normal attack as opposed to a full attack. Especially for a nat weapon rogue since they always have a hand free. (Remember - it's an SLA, not a Su)
It might be worth the vanish/acid splash combo for a melee rogue against a flying target etc, but generally it wouldn't be worth two rounds to get a single base d3 damage sneak attack.
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While I don't see building a build around Acid Splash - it'd be extremely handy to have the option. Not worth going out of your way for, but great in a surprise round since you're only giving up a single normal attack as opposed to a full attack. Especially for a nat weapon rogue since they always have a hand free. (Remember - it's an SLA, not a Su)
It might be worth the vanish/acid splash combo for a melee rogue against a flying target etc, but generally it wouldn't be worth two rounds to get a single base d3 damage sneak attack.
I've started an Unchained Rogue in PFS, using acid splash. It was very useful even at level 2. Not needing to carry an extra ranged weapon was great for my str 8 halfling. Add to that the ability to sneak attack in a surprise round and target touch ac when needed, and it was very nice to have.
I'm really looking forward to getting bookish rogue on the there to be able to swap as needed. There was a time where some party members for drenched in tree stink where a prestidigitation would have been very handy.
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Since the Rogue's role has been shifted to Primary Debuff/Secondary DPR rather than just being DPR, the low damage on Acid Splash isn't really an issue. What you want is to land Debilitating Blow, which Acid Splash is a huge help with.
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Since the Rogue's role has been shifted to Primary Debuff/Secondary DPR rather than just being DPR, the low damage on Acid Splash isn't really an issue. What you want is to land Debilitating Blow, which Acid Splash is a huge help with.
Oh - I agree. It's an extremely useful tool, and among the better unchained rogue talents.
I was just pointing out that one shouldn't design a build around it, as generally you'd be better off making a full attack when possible.
Imbicatus, it sounds like you are trying a Rogue Sniper build.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
So, you took minor magic at level 2. I'm curious what your Halfling took at level one.
You sneak in - get your one attack in 1d3 +1d6 of sneak attack then you are a exposed. I was trying to recall what Sniper bonuses were available at early levels through racial or class abilities.
And I'm wondering if any this scales.
Melee (levels 1-7) Two attacks, Ranged Touch 1 attack
Melee (levels 8-14) Four attacks, ...
The more unchained rogues I make, the more I realize they still have issues with accuracy. They just didn't go far enough I don't think.
Their 3/4 base attack bonus and lack of options to add bonuses to hit really hold them back. This is especially true for dual-wielders who generally have to eat a -2 to hit.
Sure they can lower an opponent's AC with their new debilitating injury class feature, but they have to hit the opponent first before it even activates. Even if one is lucky enough to land that first blow, the penalty only lasts for one round, meaning it really only helps your iterative attacks. So that big decrease to AC that you MIGHT get? It's almost wholly counteracted by the -5/-10 to hit that is typical of iteratives.
Sure they can flank and ambush, and that helps some, but so can everyone else--and they STILL get options that allow them to hit on top of that.
They're headed in the right direction. They just didn't take it far enough.
The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.
My concern with the class is that it's still feat starved, and very weak on saves. So, you spend a feat on propping up a save... well, you get the idea.
Depending on how you use Major Magic, you should be able to apply the debilitating injury. True Strike or Vanish requires a round of setup but would otherwise work fairly well, I think?
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The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.
That, and (correct me if I'm wrong) - but I believe it lasts until the end of your next turn (unless they're healed). So even if only one of your two+ swings in Round 1 hits for SA, they're still at -4 (or more) AC for your two+ swings the following turn.
Query on minor/major magic: What spell list can you pick your spells from? Do you have a choice?
==Aelryinth
The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.That, and (correct me if I'm wrong) - but I believe it lasts until the end of your next turn (unless they're healed). So even if only one of your two+ swings in Round 1 hits for SA, they're still at -4 (or more) AC for your two+ swings the following turn.
Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.
deals sneak attack damage to a foe, she can also debilitate the
target of her attack, causing it to take a penalty for 1 round
(this is in addition to any penalty caused by a rogue talent or
other special ability). The rogue can choose to apply any
one of the following penalties when the damage is dealt.
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Imbicatus, it sounds like you are trying a Rogue Sniper build.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.So, you took minor magic at level 2. I'm curious what your Halfling took at level one.
You sneak in - get your one attack in 1d3 +1d6 of sneak attack then you are a exposed. I was trying to recall what Sniper bonuses were available at early levels through racial or class abilities.
I'm actually making a dual-wield dagger build. I'll be taking Deific Obedience Pharasma to off-set the TWF penalties.
The Acid Splash is just a option to be there when needed. Major Magic will be either Vanish, True Strike, Dazzling Display, or Longarm. I'm undecided, but Dazzling Display is a swift action that can Blind. When I get Bookish Rogue, I expect Monkeyfish, Prestidigitation, and other utility spells will be swapping in as needed.
As this is for PFS, I could also use Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger and avoid the gold cost of enchanting a weapon.
Contributor
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Imbicatus, it sounds like you are trying a Rogue Sniper build.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.So, you took minor magic at level 2. I'm curious what your Halfling took at level one.
You sneak in - get your one attack in 1d3 +1d6 of sneak attack then you are a exposed. I was trying to recall what Sniper bonuses were available at early levels through racial or class abilities.
I'm actually making a dual-wield dagger build. I'll be taking Deific Obedience Pharasma to off-set the TWF penalties.
The Acid Splash is just a option to be there when needed. Major Magic will be either Vanish, True Strike, Dazzling Display, or Longarm. I'm undecided, but Dazzling Display is a swift action that can Blind. When I get Bookish Rogue, I expect Monkeyfish, Prestidigitation, and other utility spells will be swapping in as needed.
As this is for PFS, I could also use Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger and avoid the gold cost of enchanting a weapon.
What book is the Dazzling Display spell from? I'm not familiar with it...
If they're allowed to grab it, Quickened SLA at 10 is really great for getting a touch attack in to start things rolling.
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The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.That, and (correct me if I'm wrong) - but I believe it lasts until the end of your next turn (unless they're healed). So even if only one of your two+ swings in Round 1 hits for SA, they're still at -4 (or more) AC for your two+ swings the following turn.Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.
** spoiler omitted **
Right - I said that. (see bolded)
Right - I said that. (see bolded)
Yep! But, I don't think it lasts until the end of your next turn.
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What book is the Dazzling Display spell from? I'm not familiar with it...Imbicatus, it sounds like you are trying a Rogue Sniper build.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.So, you took minor magic at level 2. I'm curious what your Halfling took at level one.
You sneak in - get your one attack in 1d3 +1d6 of sneak attack then you are a exposed. I was trying to recall what Sniper bonuses were available at early levels through racial or class abilities.
I'm actually making a dual-wield dagger build. I'll be taking Deific Obedience Pharasma to off-set the TWF penalties.
The Acid Splash is just a option to be there when needed. Major Magic will be either Vanish, True Strike, Dazzling Display, or Longarm. I'm undecided, but Dazzling Display is a swift action that can Blind. When I get Bookish Rogue, I expect Monkeyfish, Prestidigitation, and other utility spells will be swapping in as needed.
As this is for PFS, I could also use Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger and avoid the gold cost of enchanting a weapon.
Sorry, It's actually Dazzling Blade. It's in the Rival Guide.
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Sorry, It's actually Dazzling Blade. It's in the Rival Guide.What book is the Dazzling Display spell from? I'm not familiar with it...Imbicatus, it sounds like you are trying a Rogue Sniper build.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.So, you took minor magic at level 2. I'm curious what your Halfling took at level one.
You sneak in - get your one attack in 1d3 +1d6 of sneak attack then you are a exposed. I was trying to recall what Sniper bonuses were available at early levels through racial or class abilities.
I'm actually making a dual-wield dagger build. I'll be taking Deific Obedience Pharasma to off-set the TWF penalties.
The Acid Splash is just a option to be there when needed. Major Magic will be either Vanish, True Strike, Dazzling Display, or Longarm. I'm undecided, but Dazzling Display is a swift action that can Blind. When I get Bookish Rogue, I expect Monkeyfish, Prestidigitation, and other utility spells will be swapping in as needed.
As this is for PFS, I could also use Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger and avoid the gold cost of enchanting a weapon.
Thank you!
It's been a while since I looked at that spell... it seems very nice for Major Magic. :)
The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.
My concern with the class is that it's still feat starved, and very weak on saves. So, you spend a feat on propping up a save... well, you get the idea.
I had forgotten about the duration of the penalty stacking, which does help a little, but you still need to hit in the first place. If the odds of your first attack hitting are roughly 50% before flanking, then your not likely to also land iterative attacks to extend that penalty's duration.
The penalty initially only lasts for 1 round, so it most likely ends before you next turn unless you are lucky enough to land multiple blows in the same round.
Depending on how you use Major Magic, you should be able to apply the debilitating injury. True strike or vanish requires a round of setup but would otherwise work fairly well, I think?
I use shocking grasp, since it is much more likely to land a hit and thus penalize my foe.
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I have a Ninja-based Arcane Trickster who has been using Vanish/Ray of Frost for a long time. It's a very nice thing to be able to do if you're having trouble closing, or if the opponent has DR or a high AC. If you are invisible you are hitting Flat-Footed Touch AC -- which is darn near impossible to miss. WIth an Unchained Rogue doing this, it's an almost certain Debilitating Injury.
I'm actually leaning towards Blend as the Major Magic spell -- if you have a good Stealth it has all the advantages of Vanish, except it lasts 10 min/lvl (or until you attack) so you can put it up ahead of time and use it for scouting. Now you're doing sneak attack damage every round from range (as long as you can find a good vantage for when the spell pops).
I believe that it's still sorcerer/wizard. :)Query on minor/major magic: What spell list can you pick your spells from? Do you have a choice?
==Aelryinth
So, the Rogue can take Infernal healing and False Life? Wait, False Life is level 2...he could take Shield. hah!
==Aelryinth
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I believe that it's still sorcerer/wizard. :)Query on minor/major magic: What spell list can you pick your spells from? Do you have a choice?
==Aelryinth
So, the Rogue can take Infernal healing and False Life? Wait, False Life is level 2...he could take Shield. hah!
==Aelryinth
Interesting. I was thinking purely from an offesive/stealthy perspective. But yeah - Shield would be pretty sweet. By mid levels it wouldn't be hard to have it up for just about every fight. +4 AC is certainly nothing to sniff at.
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I'm actually leaning towards Blend as the Major Magic spell -- if you have a good Stealth it has all the advantages of Vanish, except it lasts 10 min/lvl (or until you attack) so you can put it up ahead of time and use it for scouting. Now you're doing sneak attack damage every round from range (as long as you can find a good vantage for when the spell pops).
True, but it's only for Elves/Half-elves.
For defensive spells, wave shield isn't bad. DR/- equal to half your level as an immediate action if you get hit is pretty good.
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Interesting. I was thinking purely from an offesive/stealthy perspective. But yeah - Shield would be pretty sweet. By mid levels it wouldn't be hard to have it up for just about every fight. +4 AC is certainly nothing to sniff at.I believe that it's still sorcerer/wizard. :)Query on minor/major magic: What spell list can you pick your spells from? Do you have a choice?
==Aelryinth
So, the Rogue can take Infernal healing and False Life? Wait, False Life is level 2...he could take Shield. hah!
==Aelryinth
immunity to magic missiles is nothing to sneeze at either
I use shocking grasp, since it is much more likely to land a hit and thus penalize my foe.
That could work, but then you're stuck with the injury disappearing immediately before your next round. If you use True Strike to line up the first attack it's an all but guaranteed hit, and then your off-hand attack is hitting his penalized AC and has a good chance of increasing the duration to two rounds. Anything after that is just gravy.
The unchained rogue is all about that quick 1-2 combination, you need to get in two attacks in the same round if you want the debilitating injury to pay off for your own attacks.
Actually - with rogues being far more solid - do you guys think that Fortification just became indirectly more valuable?
No.
Some interesting stuff going on here.
Question:
What happens when a rogue hits someone who is already hampered with an AoO that would apply sneak attack?
Would the 1 round than be reset to that point of time, effectively not the rogues turn, but the foes turn?
Also pointing out the surprising combatant feat from blood of the moon.
Might have interesting interactions with lookout...
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Some interesting stuff going on here.
Question:
What happens when a rogue hits someone who is already hampered with an AoO that would apply sneak attack?
Would the 1 round than be reset to that point of time, effectively not the rogues turn, but the foes turn?Also pointing out the surprising combatant feat from blood of the moon.
Might have interesting interactions with lookout...
I believe (I won't get my copy 'til tomorrow) there's been words thrown around that, while you can't apply more than one Injury at a time, successive Sneak Attacks make the effects persist for 1 extra round per Injury you'd accrue.
Hit with the first Sneak Attack, Enemy has -4 to AC against you for 1 round. You hit again (gotta love TWF rogues), and it's now 2 rounds.
Next round you proceed to go to town and increase it again and again and again.
So, it seems like once the Sneak Attack Crazy Train starts, it's hard to stop, unless the Rogue misses turn after turn, or the enemy heals.
As it stands, it seems like Fast Healing is the Rogue's achilles' heel for Debilitating Injuries - but, as others have said, that's not really worse than Incorporeal vs martials, or Spell Resistance/Immunity vs casters; it's thematically appropriate, and every tactic in the game seems to have a stonewalling-counter-tactic
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It seems like this stuff might be a little more popular with rogues in the days to come. :)
It seems like this stuff might be a little more popular with rogues in the days to come. :)
I adore woundweal.
Nice wand of cure light wounds, players. >:)
It seems like this stuff might be a little more popular with rogues in the days to come. :)I adore woundweal.
Nice wand of cure light wounds, players. >:)
How does woundweal interact with things like Channel. Last I checked, Channel doesn't have a caster level to speak of.
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How does woundweal interact with things like Channel. Last I checked, Channel doesn't have a caster level to speak of.It seems like this stuff might be a little more popular with rogues in the days to come. :)I adore woundweal.
Nice wand of cure light wounds, players. >:)
Supernatural abilities generally use HD as caster level when necessary, I think.
Channel does not have a caster level because it is not a spell. Supernatural abilities that imitate spells will normally says to tread the HD as caster levels, but that still does not make the SU count as a spell unless specifically stated. It just makes the reference so you know how to get the end result.
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Since it's a DC 25 caster-level check, just roll 1d20 + cleric/paladin caster level. (It's still magical healing, whether it's a spell or not.)
Since it's a DC 25 caster-level check, just roll 1d20 + cleric/paladin caster level. (It's still magical healing, whether it's a spell or not.)
True. I guess someone that can heal magically, but has no caster levels is out of luck though, unless they meant "spells", and forgot about SU's. Oh well, I will run it as written since I dont think adventure armory is getting any updates.
Grease is also a very nice one for forcing enemies to be Flat-Footed.
Grease only Flat Foots on enemies turn in PF, small nerf to sneak attack.