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Someone mentioned a Paladin that gets the ability to Rage as a Barbarian does in this awesome thread about paladins, and it got me thinking about how it could be done. So, on a whim, I decided to start slapping something together. Fluff isn't done yet (I actually found out I was pretty much quoting the Oath of Vengeance word-for-word when I went to check out archetypes!) but the simplest version of the crunch is done.
The intention is NOT for this to be wildly stronger than the base Paladin, so it likely needs to be tuned down a little bit. I would love to hear any thoughts, comments, criticisms, etc. that anyone may have.
Holy Wrath (Ex): At 1st level, the hand of wrath gains the rage ability as the barbarian class feature. This ability replaces smite evil.
Rage Powers (Ex): At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the hand of wrath may select a barbarian rage power for which she qualifies. This ability replaces mercy.
Furious Casting (Su): At 4th level, the hand of wrath gains the ability to cast spells even while raging. She can also cast these spells defensively and can make concentration checks for these spells while raging. While raging, she can cast and concentrate on only her paladin spells; spells from other classes cannot be cast during this state. This ability replaces channel positive energy.
Tireless Wrath (Ex): When the hand of wrath reaches 8th level, she can spend two uses of her lay on hands ability to cure fatigue on herself or a willing ally as a swift action. At 17th level, the hand of wrath becomes immune to fatigue. This ability replaces aura of resolve.
Greater Wrath (Ex): At 11th level, when the hand of wrath enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3. This ability replaces aura of justice.
Aura of Ferocity (Su): At 14th level, the hand of wrath can expend three rounds of rage to grant the rage ability to all allies within 10 feet, but using 1/2 her bonuses. Allies must use this rage ability by the start of the hand of wrath's next turn and the bonuses last for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier. Using this ability is a free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability. This replaces aura of faith.
Mighty Wrath (Ex): At 20th level, the hand of wrath becomes a conduit for the wrath of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. When the hand of wrath enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4. In addition, whenever she uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount. This ability replaces holy champion.
Seranov, The swaps here aren't unbalanced. We built a Barbarian/Paladin Multiclass Archetype you can take a look at called the Holy Rage for some ideas too.
Dot. Obviously.
I actually tried to look up a Paladin/Barbarian MCA first thing, but I couldn't find it. I guess I didn't look hard enough!
No, you're right, there isn't a Pal/Bbn MCA. Only a Bbn/Pal MCA. They are listed according to primary class. Makes a difference when you are searching for a specific combo. :D
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Hmmm. I'm thinking that maybe I'm stepping too much into the Barbarian's turf with this one. I think I'll probably change it so the HoW can't pick up Extra Rage Power, so that the Barbarian is still undisputed king of Rage Power-iness.
I actually tried to look up a Paladin/Barbarian MCA first thing, but I couldn't find it. I guess I didn't look hard enough!No, you're right, there isn't a Pal/Bbn MCA. Only a Bbn/Pal MCA. They are listed according to primary class. Makes a difference when you are searching for a specific combo. :D
Yeah, that's probably what happened. I knew you guys do this kind of thing a ton, so that's why you were the first place I went to look. :)
Hello I am that someone
I feel like smiting evil is too integral to the idea of a Paladin to remove entirely; the Hand of Wrath as currently written doesn't care about the antagonist's alignment. I'm not sure as to the best way to balance that, though.
Hello I am that someone
I feel like smiting evil is too integral to the idea of a Paladin to remove entirely; the Hand of Wrath as currently written doesn't care about the antagonist's alignment. I'm not sure as to the best way to balance that, though.
The Hand of Wrath replaces smite evil, so I don't see the antagonist's alignment being at all an issue.
Archetypes can sometimes vary widely and wildly from the class they are based on. The original class then becomes the chassis from which to remove or add features, sometimes leading to something completely at odds to the original class' flavor or role.
As for this archetype, I'm not sure I understand it just as a collection of abilities without the flavor. Essentially it looks like a heavy armor barbarian with less HD and some spellcasting. Which is fine. ;)
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The fluff, which is still brewing in my head, is pretty much to make an archetype tailored to suit paladins of Ragathiel (and maybe Dammerich to a lesser degree). It will be something along the lines of
Some paladins tap into the power granted to them to become unstoppable juggernauts of holy purpose, treading the line between righteous fury and unrestrained destruction. Taking no joy in their duty, these paladins serve the greater good with relentless purpose and an iron-clad will.
The problem with your suggestion, Arachnofiend, is that giving one character Smite Evil AND Rage is just way too much of an offensive edge. That's why the Sacred Servant with the Rage subdomain has to wait until level 11 before he can rage at all.
I'm thinking about making the following changes right now:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The hand of wrath does not gain proficiency in heavy armor. This alters the paladin's armor proficiency.
Holy Wrath (Ex): At 1st level, the hand of wrath gains the rage ability as the barbarian class feature. If the hand of wrath uses this ability against a good-aligned target, she is exhausted for an hour instead of fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. If she uses this ability against a neutral-aligned target, she is exhausted instead of fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. This ability replaces smite evil.
Wrath's Grace (Su): At 2nd level, the hand of wrath gains a bonus equal to 1/2 her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. This ability replaces divine grace.
This lowers the HoW's survivability a bit (and doesn't allow them to stack their saves into the stratosphere with Divine Grace + Superstition), and makes it so they CAN use the Holy Wrath ability against anyone, but they suffer for it.
One idea for flavor: if a blackguard is what a paladin turns to when they fall to evil, maybe this is what a paladin turns to when they fall to chaos?
This way the alignment component for what they can and can't hit doesn't come into play, but their code will change and they're giving up the ability to destroy evil (or good, in a blackguard's case) for the ability to destroy... Everything. Just slightly less well than a paldin or blackguard destroys the opposite. Flavor-wise, this makes the removal of smite less shocking, and since rage is more readily available (and since rage powers are nice), maybe removing Lay on Hands for rage powers could work? It and the mercies come in at level 2 and every even level, so they're on par. Though like you said, rage powers are (and I think should be) the barbarian's domain.
I can see a paladin retaining their Lawfulness and having a sort of divine rage, but at the same time so much of rage's flavor is chaos. It might also open up the mechanics, so you're less constrained.
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See, I feel like Holy Wrath is less "RAWRG paladin smash!" and more a cold, righteously-empowered trance of smiting. I am very much not intending to change the HoW's alignment or code, except maybe to add a clause that the powers that grant a HoW their powers are VERY MUCH NOT PLEASED when that power is used against good-aligned individuals, and would rather they be focusing their might against evil enemies.
I've put together a google document with my most current iteration so that I could have everything in one place.
Added Intimidate as a class skill, removed Diplomacy Changed Rage Powers to be more similar to the Primalist's Primal Choices ability so the Barbarian is still the king of rage powers Roughest draft of Code of Conduct change
Hello I am that someone
I feel like smiting evil is too integral to the idea of a Paladin to remove entirely; the Hand of Wrath as currently written doesn't care about the antagonist's alignment. I'm not sure as to the best way to balance that, though.
The Hand of Wrath replaces smite evil, so I don't see the antagonist's alignment being at all an issue.
Archetypes can sometimes vary widely and wildly from the class they are based on. The original class then becomes the chassis from which to remove or add features, sometimes leading to something completely at odds to the original class' flavor or role.
As for this archetype, I'm not sure I understand it just as a collection of abilities without the flavor. Essentially it looks like a heavy armor barbarian with less HD and some spellcasting. Which is fine. ;)
This is supposed to be a Paladin of Ragathiel. Smiting evil is sort of his jam. How about something like this:
Divine Fury: Once per day, upon entering a rage, the Hand of Wrath may denounce a single evil-aligned target as worthy of divine judgement. The Hand of Wrath receives a damage bonus equal to her charisma modifier against the denounced target. If the target is not evil, this ability is wasted. The Hand of Wrath may use this ability an additional time per day at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter. This ability replaces Divine Grace.
So basically the Hand of Wrath swaps out the Paladin's best defensive boost for "smite-lite". With this, the Hand of Wrath will have a mechanical incentive to hunt down evil as well as a flavor one.
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As a general rule, swapping out defensive abilities for offensive ones is really lopsided. I remember someone at Paizo said the Lore Warden was not really a good example of an archetype because it trades away Fighter's defensive stuff for even more offensive stuff. I'm trying to avoid that (and sort of failed, since I replaced the defensive Mercies with the mostly-offensive Rage Powers) so that this doesn't just end up being a wildly powerful murderbeast that makes the base Paladin, Barbarian AND Bloodrager all mostly obsolete.
I think the change to Holy Wrath and the code of conduct go a good way in strongly suggesting the Hand of Wrath use his powers against the forces of evil, without handcuffing them to that. His goal is still absolutely to smite evil, he just can't specifically Smite Evil.
I remember someone at Paizo saying that about the Lore Warden too, and they were entirely wrong about their assessment. Divine Grace is a much stronger ability than Divine Fury; Divine Fury is not going to be a large boost to damage, especially since the Hand of Wrath's charisma won't be as high as the base Paladin's (because once again, Divine Fury is a much weaker ability than Divine Grace).
Keep in mind that you don't use rage against something like you use smite; rage is a buff, and doesn't actually target. The restriction may be better worded to make attacking a non-evil creature the thing makes them exhausted.
I really don't think punishing the Hand of Wrath for participating in a fight against that CN "totally not evil gaiz" boss that Paizo seems to love to put into their modules is a good idea.
I really don't think punishing the Hand of Wrath for participating in a fight against that CN "totally not evil gaiz" boss that Paizo seems to love to put into their modules is a good idea.
Yeah, I'd have to agree, though then you're just a barbarian with really nice paladin abilities and slightly less HP...
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I remember someone at Paizo saying that about the Lore Warden too, and they were entirely wrong about their assessment. Divine Grace is a much stronger ability than Divine Fury; Divine Fury is not going to be a large boost to damage, especially since the Hand of Wrath's charisma won't be as high as the base Paladin's (because once again, Divine Fury is a much weaker ability than Divine Grace).
It's a matter of looking at the class as a whole. Adding Divine Fury would be akin to stacking Smite Evil and Rage on the same character from level 2, which would probably be the absolute most +damage you can get from any single classed character. That's not really the goal for me. I wanted to make a Paladin who rages, and I was willing to drop Smite Evil for it. He's still every bit the LG divine warrior, he just goes about his smiting differently, and isn't quite as restricted in whose butt he can kick.
Keep in mind that you don't use rage against something like you use smite; rage is a buff, and doesn't actually target. The restriction may be better worded to make attacking a non-evil creature the thing makes them exhausted.
If you activate Holy Wrath while fighting against a good-aligned or neutral-aligned target, that would count as using it against that target. I'll probably clear up the wording on that some more.
I really don't think punishing the Hand of Wrath for participating in a fight against that CN "totally not evil gaiz" boss that Paizo seems to love to put into their modules is a good idea.
It's a rather minor punishment compared to the Haha! Silly paladin, you cannot smite me at all! deal that a normal paladin would have against the same CN guy. It just means he's exhausted instead of fatigued for a few rounds, and that he can't burn LoH rounds to rage cycle. You'd just need to consider if it was really worth burning your rage rounds on this enemy.
If you have the time, I'd like to see you do your own Raging Paladin from scratch, Arachnofiend. We appear to have very different ideas on how specifically we'd build this fella, and I'd like to see how you'd make a whole class out of it. :)
Why not just create a Raging Smite ability. Mash together Rage (use the rounds mechanic), and then, instead of a +4 Str/Con increase, go with +2 Str/Con, plus when attacking you deal damage equal to 1/2 your level (min 1), full level against evil outsiders, dragons, undead. Greater Raging Smite would be full level to damage (+2 per level vs evil outsider, dragon, undead) and +4 Str/Con. Mighty raging smite? Not sure. Not sure if we'd want to go to +6 Str/Con, or something else for this. Can still go with -2 Dex, and fatigued. Can make it work against any nongood creature. Add Cha bonus to damage vs evil creatures? There a few ways you could go to get a good divine rage ability for a paladin, if you don't want to go with normal rage.
To be fair, giving paladin rage and saying "Oh. But you're sleepier after using it if you have to fight a neutral creature!" is a pretty big bonus on that chassis. If we assign points to class abilities, Rage would be somewhere around a 1.5-1.75 while Smite is more like a 1 because of its restrictions. Rage is really strong, to the extent that a lot of people (from what I've seen) consider Barbarians to outright be the best martial class. I think @Elghinn has a pretty happy medium there.
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Okay, I went and tried to adapt Elghinn's idea, but I think I may have made it too clunky. I lowered the bonus to Will saves and AC penalty in accordance with the lowered Str/Con bonuses, too. It got long because I pretty much just copied the Rage class ability and then rewrote it.
Rewrote Holy Wrath Minor clarity changes in other abilities
I left the exhaustion bit in because I don't think the forces that empower paladins would really be okay with their champions using the power they were given to harm good folk or the majority of neutral folk. The fact that they get to use the ability at all against them is a big bonus over normal Smite, so I wanted to leave in the penalty.
How about this?
Holy Wrath (Su): A hand of wrath can call upon the divine power of her god, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a hand of wrath can enter a divine rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Charisma, such as those gained from rage and spells like eagle's splendor, do not increase the total number of rounds that a hand of wrath can rage per day. A hand of wrath can enter a holy wrath as a free action. The total number of rounds of holy wrath per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While under the effects of holy wrath, a hand of wrath gains a +2 morale bonus to her Strength and Charisma, and adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her damage rolls. If the target is evil, the hand of wrath adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds 1/2 her hand of wrath level to all damage rolls made against the target. If the target is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to an amount equal to her hand of wrath level. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class.
If a hand of wrath targets a creature that is of good alignment with her holy wrath, the rage immediately ends and she cannot use holy wrath for a number of minutes equal to the number of rounds she was in her holy wrath.
A hand of wrath can end her holy wrath as a free action. Unlike a barbarian, a hand of wrath is not fatigued when her holy wrath ends. A hand of wrath cannot enter a new holy wrath while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter a holy wrath multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a hand of wrath falls unconscious, her holy wrath immediately ends, placing her in peril of death. This ability replaces smite evil.
As she's getting the benefits of Wrath's Grace, I didn't see the point of including the Will save bonus that barbarian's usually get. [/ooc]
Greater Wrath (Su): At 11th level, when a hand of wrath uses holy wrath, the morale bonus to her Strength and Charisma increases to +4. In addition, she adds her hand of wrath level to all damage rolls made against evil targets. Against an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 for each hand of wrath level she possesses. This ability replaces aura of justice.
Mighty Wrath (Su): At 20th level, a hand of wrath becomes the conduit for the wrath of her god. When she uses holy wrath, the morale bonus to her Strength and Charisma increases to +6. Whenever she uses holy wrath and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her hand of wrath level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the holy wrath immediately ends. In addition, if a hand of wrath targets a creature that is of good alignment with her holy wrath, the rage immediately ends, as normal, but she only has to wait a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds she was in her holy wrath before she can use holy wrath again. This ability replaces holy champion.
So, you can use this or not, up to you. However, I think I may go and build a Pal/Bbn MCA using my version.
One other thing, I'm wondering if a mercy is equivalent to a rage power? Mercies appear to be considered on par with any other individual class feature given at a single level, as are rage powers. But one is defensive while the other is offensive. So, I'm wondering, for balance, whether 2 mercy increments shouldn't equal 1 rage power increment? Just something to consider.
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I am pretty stuck on keeping the fatigue, as it helps keep the ability balanced against its ease of use. I think your idea has merit, but it also gives the paladin further incentive to ignore/not worry about Con and pump Strength and Charisma. I'd rather encourage high Str and Con characters for this archetype, because it just feels better in the fluff and crunch, imo. As far as the Mercy = Rage Power trades, I admit that's a pretty direct upgrade in ability. That's why I was willing to make changes to Holy Wrath, after all.
On making a MCA: I'd very much like to see whatever you throw together, so keep me updated! :D
Fair enough, and I'll keep you posted.