I have been doing a bit of research on line and I fount the thing that keeps rogues on par with barbarian as far as DMG. Sneak attack+TWF VS str 1.5, seems to be the argument. But what if I could get both?
I have read that DR is the issue with unarmed combat until you get AOMF. But if I'm dealing 1.5 str will it still be an issue? Also would I still need pummeling style if I have dragon style with 1.5 str and sneak attack? Is it that good? I like dragon and snake, dragon and jabbing, dragon and boar (but animal can intimidate) in the build.
The build is a 2 level dip from monk and the rest slayer. If you could help and switch feats of advise for ability scores 20pb. And feats are better if you think in that area.
I have the wolf for free trips and a reliable flanking partner. He also is a intimidate specialist for that extra -2 for the enemy. And I know there is a feat that dose something for a foe being shaken or frightened.
Also how would believer's boon work with war blessing?
Monk of the iron mountain/ MoMs-2, slayer 18
(ST: slayer talent)
M1. Natures soul, IUAS, pummeling style, stunning fist,
M2. Toughness, pummeling charge,
S3. Dragon style
S4. (TWF)
S5. Animal ally, 1d6 sneak attack
S6. Dragon ferocity
S7. Boon companion,
S8. (ITWF), 2d6 sneak attack
S9. Improved Critical (IUAS)
S10. Combat reflexes
S11. ,3d6 sneak attack
S12. (GTWF)
S13.
S14. 4d6 sneak attack
S15.
S16.
S17.
S18.
S19.
S20.
Wolf ( irous )
USE LEER ATTACK!!!
1. Weapon focus: bite
2. Intimidating prowess
5. Dazzling display
8.
10. Disheartening display
13.
15.
18.
Dealing damage is also about being accurate, and the rogue especially a TWF'er is not as accurate as a barbarian.
You actually do more damage on average if you do not go TWF and use a two handed weapon instead.
However as the above poster said you are better off with a slayer.
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In most cases, including what OP describes, a single two-handed weapon will do more damage than TWF. Two weapon fighting sounds cool, and it's a common fantasy trope, but it's a distinctly inferior fighting style. You can optimize a build for TWF, but in most cases it will struggle to keep up.
The big historical advantage to TWF, and the main reason it's been practiced historically, is because TWF works with two (possibly even concealable) sidearms, while a single big weapon must generally be held in hand. In other words, while a longspear is generally more effective than any TWF combo, only a murder hobo or a professional soldier carries one around day-to-day. Two small weapons, suitable for TWF, can easily be carried on one's person and forgotten.
I speak from the perspective of a martial artist who is actually proficient in several TWF styles. Note that the Pathfinder Wayang race is associated with Wayang Puppet Theater, which is associated with silat. It's a lot easier to walk around with a pair of knives or swords than it is to carry a polearm. If you know you must fight a battle then most warriors will choose an actual battlefield weapon system (e.g. longspear, polearm, big shield and one-handed weapon, missile weapon, etc) over TWF. Those same warriors may also carry small weapons, for TWF, in case they lose their main weapon system.
Considering that TWF works with just sidearms, it's actually remarkably effective. Imagine a gun fighting style that made paired pistols (sidearms) nearly as effective as fighting with an assault rifle (not a sidearm). Historical swashbucklers, and associated fighting style, are an excellent example of optimized TWF style. Pathfinder does a great job of making TWF competitive.
P.s. Yes, now I know there is magic that makes carrying multiple poelarms easy. However, how many Pathfinder polearm users actually spend gold to buy one, as opposed to just sticking that 8' lucerne hammer in their 3' backpack when it's not in use. Where it doesn't fit, but there's no game rule saying it doesn't fit. The presence of extra-dimensional spaces actually reduces the reason for TWF styles to exist. Most people (who are not adventurers) cant afford magic.
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I keep 3 longspears in my 1' haversack (Mithral, Adamantine, Coldiron) in addition to the +1 I wield. Such a handy haversack. Someone stitched 'Heward' on the label inside. Must be a throwback to some other time.
Anyhow, TWF taks a whole ton of feats, and a high investment in both Dex and Str (unless you spend even -more- feats on fencing or slashing grace and pre-requisites).
Big two handed (preferably with reach) weapons take . . . Power Attack.
Historically, sidearms are only carried for point blank usage, too.
In the era of sidearms, the rifle was king. You didn't use a pistol unless you had no other choice. Rifles actually hit what they were aimed at, and had the stopping power to put a man down. Pistols before the 20th century, especially unrifled blackpowder weapons, were notorious for their inaccuracy.
So, yeah, even with firearms, if you were serious, you carried a rifle, and that logic continues right up to the modern day.
Dual wielding is just not a good fighting style unless you've got no other option.
==Aelryinth
I'm sad to say I don't know the math well enough to contribute, but I do want to say: Guys, I think he KNOWS two-weapon fighting is considered inferior. That's why he's asking for assistance. Instead of continuing to parrot the same lines over and over, try to give more constructive feedback into how to improve his build.
I do believe the highest DPS in the game involves multiple guns, so the above poster citing two pistols is absolutely correct.
Is it still inferior with me dealing 1.5 str on each attack. Also I don't have to meet dex requirement due to combat style training. So I can pump Str a lot more. Will it still be inferior with all of this? This is an unarmed build. Although I can still get high crit weapons.
I also have full BAB, don't have to meet dex requirements for TWF, sneak attack and deal 1.5 str on EACH ATTACK and 2.0 Str on the first one in the round. With all of this is it still inferior to a 2handed build. I would think its way higher right? Double the attacks at 1.5 and one at 2.0 Str. Am I missing something?
I also have full BAB, don't have to meet dex requirements for TWF, sneak attack and deal 1.5 str on EACH ATTACK and 2.0 Str on the first one in the round. With all of this is it still inferior to a 2handed build. I would think its way higher right? Double the attacks at 1.5 and one at 2.0 Str. Am I missing something?
Am I missing something? how are you still at full BAB with 2 levels of monk? MoMS trades out flurry of blows so you don't have that, I must be missing how you get full BAB in this build please let me know.
I also have full BAB, don't have to meet dex requirements for TWF, sneak attack and deal 1.5 str on EACH ATTACK and 2.0 Str on the first one in the round. With all of this is it still inferior to a 2handed build. I would think its way higher right? Double the attacks at 1.5 and one at 2.0 Str. Am I missing something?Am I missing something? how are you still at full BAB with 2 levels of monk? MoMS trades out flurry of blows so you don't have that, I must be missing how you get full BAB in this build please let me know.
I guess the 2 levels of monk will set it back by one BAB. ONE I know that can be pretty big in some cases but I don't think in this one. I am missing 1 BaB but I gained toughness, stunning fist, IUAS, and the ability to have two styles up at once and two more bonus style feats. The slayer is a full BaB class.
You will still be way behind the Barbarian, and everyone else.
Why not full Slayer?
I like the unarmed style. And I get so many free feats. I love free stuff.
Dealing damage is also about being accurate, and the rogue especially a TWF'er is not as accurate as a barbarian.
You actually do more damage on average if you do not go TWF and use a two handed weapon instead.
However as the above poster said you are better off with a slayer.
I have light weapons IUAS and they deal 1.5 str on hit the first dose 2.0 Str DMG. So a -2 to hit but the wolf intimidates so I get a +2 to hit. So no dex required due to combat style training. High str on this character.
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That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
Two-Weapon Fighting works best when you can hit very-accurately.
Rangers, Slayers, Monks, and Sacred Fists are good Two-Weapon fighters because they get Two-Weapon Fighting for free through various means, operate with full Base Attack Bonuses when dual-wielding. Being able to focus on Strength also helps, but isn't as huge a problem as most would make it out to be when all is said and done.
The Warpriest is a good two-weapon Fighter because it gets a metric TON of Feats to make it work AND the little bugger counts as a Fighter when taking Bonus Feats, meaning he can take Greater Weapon Focus and thus negate any penalties from TWF'ing, along with taking Weapon Specialization so they get an additional +2 to damage, combined with the fact that they can swift-cast pumping spells.
Brawlers get both Two-Weapon Fighting et all for free AND always count as a Fighter, so they not only attack at full BAB, they also negate the penalties from TWFing - and if they use Shields as Weapons, they can take Shield Mastery and not only ACTUALLY negate the penalties for fighting with two weapons, with GWF they're actually attacking a BAB+2 and with WS they're dealing free extra damage to boot! However, the Brawler is limited to only a handful of weapons.
Fighters are arguably the most versatile TWFs because they have as many feats (technically 1 more) as the Warpriest, they have full BAB, and they're naturally Fighters, meaning taking Greater Weapon Focus is just a given, as is Weapon Specialization.
Add to this the fact that the Fighter SPECIFICALLY has an Archetype built around TWFing that over time removes the penalties incurred by weapons while TWFing, meaning it's maybe the only thing in the game that lets you dual-wield Katanas/Bastardswords, whatever.
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Rogues, while theoretically relying on two-weapon fighting and being THE iconic class for TWFing in order for Sneak Attack to do the arse-tons of damage it SHOULD be doing to justify its restrictions, get very little in the way of support for the method, in that the best they can take is Weapon Focus, and they themselves don't get tricks to up their ability to hit with two weapons better.
The Ninja makes up for this by giving you free access to the Wakizashi, with is a Short-Sword-on-Steroids, meaning you can dual-wield them AND your Crit ratio is absolutely hilarious (a Keen Wakizashi is 15-20/x2)
This may change with the Unchained Rogue, which could be an archetype which gives full BAB, give the Rogue some tricks to make TWFing the best option available for the class, but we'll have to wait a few months to see if that comes to be.
I have light weapons IUAS and they deal 1.5 str on hit the first dose 2.0 Str DMG. So a -2 to hit but the wolf intimidates so I get a +2 to hit. So no dex required due to combat style training. High str on this character.Dealing damage is also about being accurate, and the rogue especially a TWF'er is not as accurate as a barbarian.
You actually do more damage on average if you do not go TWF and use a two handed weapon instead.
However as the above poster said you are better off with a slayer.
ok. I see the confusion. You mentioned rogues, but you are using a slayer for the build. With a slayer you should be able to hit and put out good damage. Can it compete with a barbarian in damage? Well that depends on the barbarian, but you will not feel like you are not contributing.
Also GTWF is not a primary feat. Two weapon rend is more valuable than that.
Boon companion will also help and I see that you have it. You should do very well.
Sneak attack is nice extra damage, but a slayer does not need it to do well, but since you have an animal companion you should be able to get it more frequently than if you did not have it.
Unless you have a reach weapon combat reflexes will likely not see a lot of use, so maybe picking up Iron will is a better idea. You do not want that offense to be turned on the party.
That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(
Let's say 18 str so +4
So would look like this
9/9/5 dealing 1d6+8 on the first attack, 1d6+6, 1d6+6.
All + 1d6 sneak attack if flanking or surprise round.
I have light weapons IUAS and they deal 1.5 str on hit the first dose 2.0 Str DMG. So a -2 to hit but the wolf intimidates so I get a +2 to hit. So no dex required due to combat style training. High str on this character.Dealing damage is also about being accurate, and the rogue especially a TWF'er is not as accurate as a barbarian.
You actually do more damage on average if you do not go TWF and use a two handed weapon instead.
However as the above poster said you are better off with a slayer.
ok. I see the confusion. You mentioned rogues, but you are using a slayer for the build. With a slayer you should be able to hit and put out good damage. Can it compete with a barbarian in damage? Well that depends on the barbarian, but you will not feel like you are not contributing.
Also GTWF is not a primary feat. Two weapon rend is more valuable than that.
Boon companion will also help and I see that you have it. You should do very well.
Sneak attack is nice extra damage, but a slayer does not need it to do well, but since you have an animal companion you should be able to get it more frequently than if you did not have it.
Unless you have a reach weapon combat reflexes will likely not see a lot of use, so maybe picking up Iron will is a better idea. You do not want that offense to be turned on the party.
Good idea on the iron will. I just wanted to stay on par with the other martial classes.
I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
TWF does work with unarmed strikes.
TWF does work with unarmed strikes.I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
oh man that scared me for a second. I thought I was going crazy. Would you go jabbing master or pummeling charge? I think DR won't be an issue for this toon. But dealing 4d6 extra is pretty nice.
One issue I see is that not having the amulet of natural armor means you AC will be lower. If your GM allows for the dragon feats to work with the unarmed strike from a cestus then thematically you can still do unarmed strikes and not lose out on AC.
That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(
Let's say 18 str so +4
So would look like this
9/9/5 dealing 1d6+8 on the first attack, 1d6+6, 1d6+6.
All + 1d6 sneak attack if flanking or surprise round.
TWF absolutely works with Unarmed.
Unarmed Attacks are Light Weapons, and count as such for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting.
The ODD thing about Unarmed Attacks with TWFing is that you don't actually have to use your HANDS to attack; Unarmed are any part of your body - punches, kicks, headbutts, etc.
Unarmed + Natural Attacks is actually a way for the Warpriest to get more attacks off and do more damage than the Sacred Fist.
However, Unarmed TWFing isn't common because Unarmed Attacks do very little damage normally (1d4).
That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(
Let's say 18 str so +4
So would look like this
9/9/5 dealing 1d6+8 on the first attack, 1d6+6, 1d6+6.
All + 1d6 sneak attack if flanking or surprise round.TWF absolutely works with Unarmed.
Unarmed Attacks are Light Weapons, and count as such for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting.
The ODD thing about Unarmed Attacks with TWFing is that you don't actually have to use your HANDS to attack; Unarmed are any part of your body - punches, kicks, headbutts, etc.
Unarmed + Natural Attacks is actually a way for the Warpriest to get more attacks off and do more damage than the Sacred Fist.
However, Unarmed TWFing isn't common because Unarmed Attacks do very little damage normally (1d4).
1d6 and 1.5 str and 2.0 on first attack seems to be on par with everyone else. If not higher. And sneak attack to boot. I agree I don't really need sneak attack but hey I'm not complaining. I like that image head buts of justice. And kick people in the face.
I was thinking pummeling style or jabbing master. Dragon style is a must. I just don't know which other to get boar maybe. SNAKE IS MY FAVORITE!!
I was thinking of going with some team work feats for me and my wolf buddy, like paired opportunist and broken wing gambit, out flank combat reflexes. What do ya think?
Those feats are nice, and could work well for you. However you may have to raise the animal's intelligence to 3 so he qualifies for them.
Make sure the animal companion has light armor proficiency also.
It would also be nice if one of the party's casters can craft magical items, since buying equipment for two characters can get expensive.
TWF does work with unarmed strikes.I did not know TWF only worked with weapons. I thought UAS was on the weapons list so I assumed you could use IUAS with TWF. I guess the build is a bust. :(That's a pretty clever build, Arcanine! I think I see what you're trying to do, but I'm not certain. I'm a bit confused about how you combine Dragon Ferocity with TWF. I'm just learning these feats, and have not GMd for most of them. Please explain more.
Will this character attack with Unarmed Strikes (via Monk Flurry) or with weapons? Dragon ferocity and Pummeling Style seem to only work on unarmed attacks. TWF only works with weapons. How does TWF apply?
This build seems to come together around 6th level. Please explain the 6th level full attack routine you envision. It's clear it will hit pretty darn hard ...
This is assuming that the Line
"A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."just meens that there is no penalty with monks using IUS. In my game it meens that monks use the whole body as one weapon and need flurry if they want the TWF feel and the extra damage dice.
Edit: sorry my son came and jumped me. If you use the monk IUS does have off hand attack version of the rules i like your build and think you should stick with both pummeling style and dragon style. Sneek attack is not gonna be the deciding Factor in your damage and it is not worth to build after but it is Nice when it works. The Wolf will be a resourse sink but if you want it you can give it a little extra with the spirits gift feat. Finally there is the option of picking a brawler instead of a slayer. It will loose some of the cool stuff from favored target and some skills but there are options there as well.
Edit2: sorry for the mess but i have a jumper here. Ignore it if it is too messy.
Those feats are nice, and could work well for you. However you may have to raise the animal's intelligence to 3 so he qualifies for them.
Make sure the animal companion has light armor proficiency also.
It would also be nice if one of the party's casters can craft magical items, since buying equipment for two characters can get expensive.
i could add my own caster like a faerie dragon. through eldritch heritage: Arcane. i think you can swap the spells that thing is op. would help with the buffs because we have to split the money. that very resource full. thanx for the idea.
but wait isnt a unarmed enchantment on the AOMF the best way to go? price wise. so the wolf would level it out. i would be like a druid. lol. so the same enchantments would work for me and the price of the druid armor.
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I like the unarmed style. And I get so many free feats. I love free stuff.You will still be way behind the Barbarian, and everyone else.
Why not full Slayer?
You know you can select a Ranger Combat Style, which includes the Irori combat style:
Faithful (Irori)
If the ranger selects faithful (Irori), he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Trip and Spring Attack to the list. At 10th level, he adds Ki Throw and Stunning Fist to the list.
Oh, and you don't need to meet the Prerequisites for any of those feats.
You could still dip Monk, or Brawler, or even Sacred Fist Warpriest.
but wait isnt a unarmed enchantment on the AOMF the best way to go? price wise. so the wolf would level it out. i would be like a druid. lol. so the same enchantments would work for me and the price of the druid armor.
If you are trying to buy stuff for two characters and use Two weapon fighting then you are going to need a lot of money anyway, and unlike the barbarian you don't have DR to protect you so I think the amulet of natural armor is not a bad idea. Then again I don't know how high your AC can go with no shield and medium armor, but there is probably a thread on it somewhere.
I do think the wolf should get the AoMF. Why do you need druid(non metal) armor?
I believe you can only have one Martial Style feat in effect at one time, without mixing in MoMS, right? So you'll have Dragon OR Pummeling Charge, but not both, without MoMS. All of the different styles don't stack.
Or am I misremembering?
Absolutely TWF works if you can hit. The reason TWF doesn't work better then 2H in the current game is that -2 to hit. It just drags the style down. If you an ladle on the bonuses to hit, which is what dual-wielding Pistoleros targeting touch attacks do to get monstrous damage numbers....well, more attacks that always hit are better by definition.
==Aelryinth
Snakebite brawler archetype. Full bab brawler's flurry while two handing whatever weapon you wanna use that works with that flurry and sneak attack all in one class.
The flurry is the same as TWF but you can do it with a single appropriate weapon if I'm not mistaken. I also do not remember it saying that you couldn't wield it in two hands either
I believe you can only have one Martial Style feat in effect at one time, without mixing in MoMS, right? So you'll have Dragon OR Pummeling Charge, but not both, without MoMS. All of the different styles don't stack.
Or am I misremembering?
Absolutely TWF works if you can hit. The reason TWF doesn't work better then 2H in the current game is that -2 to hit. It just drags the style down. If you an ladle on the bonuses to hit, which is what dual-wielding Pistoleros targeting touch attacks do to get monstrous damage numbers....well, more attacks that always hit are better by definition.
==Aelryinth
Yeah you are right, only style active at once.
You sound well versed enough to be opinionated so I'm assuming that you are well versed enough to look at them and say oh they do seem to be a little tougher than the rest don't you think?
AH MY BAD I opened the wrong tab lol