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I have a party of 5 level 14 PCs consiting of a Ranger, 2 Barbarians, a Magus, and a Wizard. This was my fist time even playing a game of Pathfinder much less DMing one so the PCs are rather powerful. So I want to throw a problem at them that they cant just stab to death or solve with the casting of a single spell. So I've put together an encouter where the party is being targeted by level 20 Ninja with all of the extra special abilities of a Master Spy. It will infiltrate their kingdom, impersinate their high ranking members of governmnt, steal, harass, attempt to kill their favorite NPC's, and overall just be a nuisance untill it stops playing around and begins to trying and actually murder them. It's the whole it could be anyone or anywhere thing, cant trust ayone, general paranoia, that sort of thing. Do you think she will be to hard to catch or deal with? If so how could I make her weaker without making it too easy? Or if you can think of a simple way to sovle the problem that I should plan for, that would be much appreciated aswell. Thanks guys.
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First off, level 14 PCs, especially wizards, have a LOT of capabilities. Be ready for this. It's a difficult time to start DMing, so be patient.
Now, here's the bad news: A 20th level ninja can move around completely undetectable by the party, and this won't really work as a challenge. If she wanted to, she could likely kill the party at her leisure, because Hidden Master is just freakishly good. Even if the party is prepared for it, they (literally) won't see it coming, and can't even detect her while she's murdering them.
Now, at 14th level, this IS a nuisance, as by this time they likely have the money to regularly afford resurrections. The problem is, if you took her down to, say, 19th level, she's too easy, as the 20th level ultimate ability is just so darn good. Sorry if I don't have any easy solutions: I rarely run games this high level for precisely this reason.
First off, level 14 PCs, especially wizards, have a LOT of capabilities. Be ready for this. It's a difficult time to start DMing, so be patient.
Now, here's the bad news: A 20th level ninja can move around completely undetectable by the party, and this won't really work as a challenge. If she wanted to, she could likely kill the party at her leisure, because Hidden Master is just freakishly good. Even if the party is prepared for it, they (literally) won't see it coming, and can't even detect her while she's murdering them.
Now, at 14th level, this IS a nuisance, as by this time they likely have the money to regularly afford resurrections. The problem is, if you took her down to, say, 19th level, she's too easy, as the 20th level ultimate ability is just so darn good. Sorry if I don't have any easy solutions: I rarely run games this high level for precisely this reason.
Thanks for the words of encouragement Davor. What if I replace Hidden Master with something less powerful? Or just use the weaker version? Her stealth is already dumb and only 1 PC (the ranger) has a decent perception score. The only reason I would even use Hidden Master is to fool divination spells but with the master spy abilities it will get mind blank anyway. Is that still too powerful? Maybe 10 levels of Ninja and 10 levels of Master spy?
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I know I am not answering your question, but starting the players at level 14 is absolutely the wrong way to go for an inexperienced GM.
One of the good things about the game is it starts, not simple, but comparatively simple.
There are far far fewer things to keep track of if you start with level 1 characters and monsters of similar power. I would start with the options available in the core only pathfinder society option as well.
The game gets more complex as you ascend levels, with more to keep track of. If your players don't know the game everyone is going to get lost.
I am not sure you realize what a 20th level character really is. The vast majority of people never achieve higher than 6th level. Between 6th level and 12 level they are supposed to be the mover and shakers of a kingdom. Characters above 12th level are supposed to be extremely rare. Typically there are no more than a handful of such powerful characters in the whole world. So a 20th level ninja should be the most skilled and deadly assassin in the world. He did not get to where he is by making stupid mistakes so he will be extremely deadly and not play around.
Your group is already in the world class characters so anyone trying to take them down will not be fooling around. The first thing the Ninja is going to do is to take down the Wizard. The only way to take out a high level wizard is to catch him completely off guard. A ninja of this level of experience is going to realize this and act appropriately. With Hidden Master, 10d6 Sneak Attack and three attacks per round this is not going to be hard against someone who is not expecting it. The Ninja is going to wait until the characters are alone instead of a together in a group.
You are also making a classic rookie mistake of trying to use a single more powerful character against the group. When you want to challenge the players you don’t go up against their strong point you look to where they are weak and attack that. From the look of your party they have a lot of power in combat, decent magic ability but very little in the way of social ability. You also want to create a challenge that they can’t just stab away, but are setting up another combat oriented character as the main villain.
What I would suggest is to start throwing some social challenges at the party. Use a bard, or cleric or other social class as the main opponent and have them start throwing obstacles at the party. Make the main opponent someone who they can’t just outright kill. Maybe the high priest of the local religion decides they are a threat to his power, maybe the court bard has it in for you. He does not act openly but always through a proxy. The first thing he does is turn the common people against the party, probably by spreading rumors. This character does not have to be a high level character, just one with decent mental stats and a good position.
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+1
Starting at level 1 is the way to go.
Humorous question I say an inexperienced GM actually right in to dragon magazine many years ago.
I had Thor fighting my PCs, and the magic-user used a push spell to push him off a cliff and killed them. Now they are even more powerful with all his equipment.
The response was priceless. Dear New DM, I guess Thor was so surprise a spell then generates a few foot pound of force pushed an armored warrior off a cliff, he forgot he could fly or teleport at will.
I am not sure you realize what a 20th level character really is. The vast majority of people never achieve higher than 6th level. Between 6th level and 12 level they are supposed to be the mover and shakers of a kingdom. Characters above 12th level are supposed to be extremely rare. Typically there are no more than a handful of such powerful characters in the whole world. So a 20th level ninja should be the most skilled and deadly assassin in the world. He did not get to where he is by making stupid mistakes so he will be extremely deadly and not play around.
Your group is already in the world class characters so anyone trying to take them down will not be fooling around. The first thing the Ninja is going to do is to take down the Wizard. The only way to take out a high level wizard is to catch him completely off guard. A ninja of this level of experience is going to realize this and act appropriately. With Hidden Master, 10d6 Sneak Attack and three attacks per round this is not going to be hard against someone who is not expecting it. The Ninja is going to wait until the characters are alone instead of a together in a group.
You are also making a classic rookie mistake of trying to use a single more powerful character against the group. When you want to challenge the players you don’t go up against their strong point you look to where they are weak and attack that. From the look of your party they have a lot of power in combat, decent magic ability but very little in the way of social ability. You also want to create a challenge that they can’t just stab away, but are setting up another combat oriented character as the main villain.
What I would suggest is to start throwing some social challenges at the party. Use a bard, or cleric or other social class as the main opponent and have them start throwing obstacles at the party. Make the main opponent someone who they can’t just outright kill. Maybe the high priest of the local religion decides they are a threat to his power,...
@joynt they didn't start at level 14, their old DM had to leave the group and I was voted new DM as they hate it but still really wanted to continue this campaign so I'm just trying to keep it going
@stranger
Sorry, I'm making it sound like they're just going to get jumped by the ninja like it's just combat. I agree with the social situations and that's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. The point of the encounter is them trying to find and kill the ninja with an emphasis on find, as she will be using her master spy ability to run amok in their government, killing their favorite npcs, stealing their stuff, it's all a fun game to the ninja and killing the PCs is really her secondary objective. She will fight the PCs but only when she has to. So I'm trying to balance being able to move around undetected, killing the npcs, strealing, and being able to disguise herself to infiltrate them with being strong enough in combat to rough them up a bit not to actually pose a threat.
Sorry about the misspelling, on a phone now.
I really enjoy homebrew, open-world campaigns- but for levels you haven't run before I'd recommend a pre-written module - or at least take parts of one to get an idea of challenge level and some of the considerations on how to challenge PCs of that level.
I really enjoy homebrew, open-world campaigns- but for levels you haven't run before I'd recommend a pre-written module - or at least take parts of one to get an idea of challenge level and some of the considerations on how to challenge PCs of that level.
Yeah I understand, quite a bit of trail by fire but I don't really have much of a choice it was kind of a stipulation to join the group. Kinda sucks but I understand their reasoning they've been playing in this world for almost a year. Just trying to make due and gives these guys a good game. Do you have any recommendations for modules I should look into?
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Okay, so, you've inherited this game, the PCs are 14th level, you're an inexperienced GM, but you're trying to do right by the players.
I will second the idea that GMing low level characters gives a really good grounding in the game, but your situation doesn't really permit that. Since you've said that killing the PCs isn't a goal of the ninja you're proposing, you're off to a good start for managing such a challenging scenario (the ninja in question is a really serious threat to the party).
I'd say run with it. Because the game sounds like it's got a fair bit of roleplaying elements rather than hack and slash, the combat abilities of the ninja become secondary to its ability to screw with their social lives. Worst case scenario, a fight starts. Don't kill the characters. See how well they do, and use that to gauge whether they need to level up before an actual showdown. Best case: they earn XP from trying to track the ninja down. Just try to make sure the ninja has a way out of any situation that could devolve into a scrap.
Take a look at the Master Spy prestige class. Maybe send 6-10 of them to harass the PC's
Instead of making a level 20 Ninja, with all the troubles that go along with that, how about taking a monster and giving it class levels? An Aboleth (especially the Veiled Master), Blue Dragon, Doppelganger, Faceless Stalker, Rakshasa, Skin Stealer and Succubus would all seem suited to adding levels in Ninja or Rogue.
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Instead of having a single high level character as the opposition you would be better off having multiple lower level characters. This allows you to create a team that can work together. This is always a lot more efficient than a single opponent. In a social challenge the opposition does not even have to be that high level. I could create more of a social challenge with 4 10th level characters than I could with a single 20th level character. The only thing you need to have high levels for is for combat or to counter act the players spell casters. The only real spell caster you have is the wizard. While the magus can cast spells most of his spells are gear towards combat. Look over what spells the Wizard has for gathering information and protection. As long as he does not have a lot of divination spells then you may not need all that much in terms of spells to counter him.
A team of a bard, inquisitor, investigator, and a sorcerer would be pretty decent. Use a lot of enchantments spells and misdirection. An Archeologist bard is about the best “Thief” in the game and at that level very difficult to stop. An enchantment focused sorcerer could wreak havoc on the party by controlling people and altering their memories. The investigator has a lot of skills and can use potions to physically turn into different creatures. The inquisitor can buff himself to hell and they can uncover things like no one else. Make them the leaders of a spy organization with plenty of disposable minions and you should have a decent challenge that they cannot simply fight their way out of.
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Perhaps GM some Level 1-3 Adventures 'on the side' to learn the GM art. You are likely to quickly gain experience that will improve the 14th level game. Starting with established 14th level characters is really, really, really difficult. Like, I've been GMing for 30+ years, and I doubt I could do it well.
* Combat is almost impossible to balance. The only way to beat a party like that in combat is to smack them down right away, before they have a chance to act. Pretty much any foes you can face them with will either instakill the PCs, else rapidly lose.
* That 14th level wizard is really powerful. Not just in combat, but in all ways. If the player has good system mastery, and knows the spell lists, s/he will constantly blind-size you with powerful spells & effects. E.g. scrying, amazing teleportation, body switching, summoning specialized creatures that do specialized things, instant communication, just weird and unexpected magical effects. Be prepared for this.
* Like people say, social adventures are your best bet. Things like threats to reputation, political moves, etc. Things that immense combat might does not greatly affect.
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Perhaps GM some Level 1-3 Adventures 'on the side' to learn the GM art. You are likely to quickly gain experience that will improve the 14th level game. Starting with established 14th level characters is really, really, really difficult. Like, I've been GMing for 30+ years, and I doubt I could do it well.
* Combat is almost impossible to balance. The only way to beat a party like that in combat is to smack them down right away, before the have a chance to act. Pretty much any foes you can face them with will either instakill the PCs, else rapidly lose.
* That 14th level wizard is really powerful. Not just in combat, but in all ways. If the player has good system mastery, and knows the spell lists, s/he will constantly blind-size you with powerful spells & effects. E.g. scrying, amazing teleportation, body switching, summoning specialized creatures that do specialized things, instant communication, just weird and unexpected magical effects. Be prepared for this.
* Like people say, social adventures are your best bet. Things like threats to reputation, political moves, etc. Things that immense combat might does not greatly affect.
1- Not particularly, if you play from the book as is, then yes. But a few GM home fixes go a mile. Instance, giving Monsters max hp, then giving the BBEG 2x hp and his lesser than himself, but greater than minions minions 1.5x hp. This if highly effective vs damage dealing people, and lets maneuvers shine a little more. Most people I have played with rarely take save-or-suck spells outside color sprays usefulness.
2- Wizards can be strong, they can, and some will ruin encounters by finding out about them a day in advance (or more) via divination. They WILL hear that secret meeting, get to that certain place first. etc. etc. However, as long as you limit them on where/when they can find spells, you can hold them -somewhat- in check. However I prefer to let them divine things, better than building save-or-suck.
3- Social adventures are fun, however I do like a good combat every so often. While 14+ level ARE more difficult to balance. I have found a good medium to work with. However that came from a few years of experience. I advocate the group enemy as well, that party set up is really nice. Have them do the dirty work and the ninja 20/masterspy 10 be the BBEG at the very end.
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1. Indeed, but how can a new GM know what are the correct fixes, without first gaining experience? Games wet wonky at such high levels.
2. I find that Wizards become able to solve almost any problem with magic by 14th level. Also, a smart, well-played wizard ought to be pretty much immune to harm unless caught completely by surprise, in which case a quick death is usually imminent. E.g. GM must assume flying invisible ethereal shape-shifting teleporting mind-reading mind-controlling wizard-spies everywhere all the time, to even make things interesting. I've GMd for some very resourceful wizard players who were especially capable out of combat.
I have a party of 5 level 14 PCs consiting of a Ranger, 2 Barbarians, a Magus, and a Wizard. This was my fist time even playing a game of Pathfinder much less DMing one so the PCs are rather powerful. So I want to throw a problem at them that they cant just stab to death or solve with the casting of a single spell. So I've put together an encouter where the party is being targeted by level 20 Ninja with all of the extra special abilities of a Master Spy. It will infiltrate their kingdom, impersinate their high ranking members of governmnt, steal, harass, attempt to kill their favorite NPC's, and overall just be a nuisance untill it stops playing around and begins to trying and actually murder them. It's the whole it could be anyone or anywhere thing, cant trust ayone, general paranoia, that sort of thing. Do you think she will be to hard to catch or deal with? If so how could I make her weaker without making it too easy? Or if you can think of a simple way to sovle the problem that I should plan for, that would be much appreciated aswell. Thanks guys.
If this is your first Pathfinder experience then leave level 14 characters alone, especially if the other players have experience. That ninja can be owned by spells. He is only a martial character.
Start at level 1. At least don't go above level 3.
I see you inherited a game. Then I say do what the others have said and run a few low level games on the side to learn the rules.
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What about an inexperienced DM starting his players out at level 5?
Of note I have both a co-DM with much more experience helping out and a player with more experience when it comes to Pathfinder... so I have that going for me when it comes to the campaign.
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Just curious, since it seems the consensus is that it is ill advised for an inexperienced DM to run higher level campaigns.
Two things:
First: dont start at 14, tell them no to that. But is that is impossible.
Two: make encounters that are clear on paper and in your head. Dont make a high level character that is undetectaable. They will only find him with your help. This cannot avoid being the story about"the level 20 ninja with all the powers of a Master spy and some heroes that kill him in the end because he acts like he dumped his mental stats" and that is not the story you want to tell.
What about an inexperienced DM starting his players out at level 5?
Of note I have both a co-DM with much more experience helping out and a player with more experience when it comes to Pathfinder... so I have that going for me when it comes to the campaign.
--------------------------Just curious, since it seems the consensus is that it is ill advised for an inexperienced DM to run higher level campaigns.
When starting at higher levels it is important to know why you start a bit up and to undestand what is the reality of where you start. If you have that i see no problem.
Thanks for all the advice guy I appreciate the support. I completely understand starting at low levels but I don't have a choice, I'll be able to after this campaign but untill then I'm stuck. So the general concensus is either scrap it or change it do a few lower level ninjas. I completely understand scrapping it and I'm sure I'll be able to inplenent it be down the line. As for the lower level ninjas, is that they would be much too easy to locate by the ranger and the wizard. Any advice on what I should replace the encounter with? Someone said something about a bard altering memories, I could have slot of fun with that, any suggestions?
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Thanks for all the advice guy I appreciate the support. I completely understand starting at low levels but I don't have a choice, I'll be able to after this campaign but untill then I'm stuck. So the general concensus is either scrap it or change it do a few lower level ninjas. I completely understand scrapping it and I'm sure I'll be able to inplenent it be down the line. As for the lower level ninjas, is that they would be much too easy to locate by the ranger and the wizard. Any advice on what I should replace the encounter with? Someone said something about a bard altering memories, I could have slot of fun with that, any suggestions?
don't use ninjas, I would use the suggested party in this thread
enchantress sorcerer (come over here sexy boy..), the inquisitor, a rogue/ninja/bard, and an investigator. Maybe add a fighter as "muscle"
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Why do you need to use a ninja? While they are better than a rogue they are still a lower tier class. Also instead of a group of identical characters diversify the group. Most parties don’t have multiple of the same classes and for the most part the enemies should also have a mixture of classes.
Sow thought is a 1st level spell for both bard and sorcerer. It allows you to implant an idea that the target thinks is their own. That spell alone could wreak havoc for the party. Throw in a couple of other spells like misdirection, suggestion, charm monster, dominate person, and modify memory and the party is going to have a rough time finding out who the enemy really is. All of these spells can be cast by a bard of only 10th level.
Thanks for all the advice guy I appreciate the support. I completely understand starting at low levels but I don't have a choice, I'll be able to after this campaign but untill then I'm stuck. So the general concensus is either scrap it or change it do a few lower level ninjas. I completely understand scrapping it and I'm sure I'll be able to inplenent it be down the line. As for the lower level ninjas, is that they would be much too easy to locate by the ranger and the wizard. Any advice on what I should replace the encounter with? Someone said something about a bard altering memories, I could have slot of fun with that, any suggestions?don't use ninjas, I would use the suggested party in this thread
enchantress sorcerer (come over here sexy boy..), the inquisitor, a rogue/ninja/bard, and an investigator. Maybe add a fighter as "muscle"
Hmm, okay. Is there a way for them to accomplish the same goals I was hoping to get with the ninja? I get the Enchantress and Bard, could really have fun with that, but I'm not familiar with the inquisitor or investigator what do they bring to the table? Also, though I'm not entirely sure how power scales but I think they are really powerful for their level. The magus does something around 100 damage with shocking grasp? and the others are right up there with her. Is that about normal for these guys? What level should I make this party?
Why do you need to use a ninja? While they are better than a rogue they are still a lower tier class. Also instead of a group of identical characters diversify the group. Most parties don’t have multiple of the same classes and for the most part the enemies should also have a mixture of classes.
Sow thought is a 1st level spell for both bard and sorcerer. It allows you to implant an idea that the target thinks is their own. That spell alone could wreak havoc for the party. Throw in a couple of other spells like misdirection, suggestion, charm monster, dominate person, and modify memory and the party is going to have a rough time finding out who the enemy really is. All of these spells can be cast by a bard of only 10th level.
Okay, yeah. That sounds awesome. Any recommendations for the rest of the party levels?
Okay, neat. So level 16 should be good? Is there anyway to keep them relatively hidden or conceal their efforts from divination?
The enchantment focused sorceress is a good idea. For the bard use the archeologist archetype for a magic rogue. The inquisitor is basically a combination of rogue and cleric, but is one of the best self-buffing classes in the game. The investigator is a combination of rogue and alchemist. Both the Inquisitor and the investigator can buff up for combat, but will probably not match your party straight up. If they work together and assist each other they will be a challenge.
With these characters all of them can cast invisibility so their stealth rolls are going to be difficult for event he ranger to beat. Detect invisibility will counter that but these characters also have mundane stealth that detect invisibility and true seeing do not counter.
Remember the idea is to create a challenge that the party can’t just fight its way through. This group is incredibly subtle and will avoid direct confrontations with the party.
Okay, neat. So level 16 should be good? Is there anyway to keep them relatively hidden or conceal their efforts from divination?
Bards have a lot of spell to hide from divination. Misdirection is only a 2nd level spell for a bard and shuts down a lot of detects.
If the characters are well optimized and work as a team you will probably want them lower level than the party. Build them on the same rules and wealth by level as the party but probably no more than 12th level is needed.
When you are writing up a team you can use one character to cover the weak spots of another. The synergy of this can mean that the lower level group is more powerful.
The enchantment focused sorceress is a good idea. For the bard use the archeologist archetype for a magic rogue. The inquisitor is basically a combination of rogue and cleric, but is one of the best self-buffing classes in the game. The investigator is a combination of rogue and alchemist. Both the Inquisitor and the investigator can buff up for combat, but will probably not match your party straight up. If they work together and assist each other they will be a challenge.
With these characters all of them can cast invisibility so their stealth rolls are going to be difficult for event he ranger to beat. Detect invisibility will counter that but these characters also have mundane stealth that detect invisibility and true seeing do not counter.
Remember the idea is to create a challenge that the party can’t just fight its way through. This group is incredibly subtle and will avoid direct confrontations with the party.
Awesome, I think I got it. Thanks guys I really appreciate it, it's perfect. I'll let y'all know how it goes.
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Just wanted to thank everyone for the help with the encounter. Everyone had fun tracking them down (and I was able to keep them alive and hidden long enough to deal just as much damage as I had hoped) and they proved to be a decent fight. I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions as we move on in the campaign. Thanks guys.