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We're diving into Book 2 soon of S&S, and I had originally set my mind on converting everything to Fire as she Bears. As I begin conversion and realize the daunting task I've set upon myself, I began to wonder if the original ship rules are really so horrible.
I initially read that some had poor experiences with them, that they were very cut and dry, only one person really got to do anything, etc. I'd be interesting in hearing more details. Namely, are they so bad that the large amount of effort in converting everything to FaSB is worth it? Or are they bad, but not so bad that it's worth taking the extra time?
Would really appreciate any input in this. :) Thanks!
I don't think they're that bad. I also didn't have much interest in the work that putting another game system over S&S would entail. One person is going to be driving the boat, so he's going to be the focus there. Another person can assist him which is helpful but not too exciting.
Where my extra players had the most fun is in firing weapons and using their spells and abilities against the opposing ships. To be "good" at using siege weapons takes some feats, but hitting an enemy with a ballista can be pretty fun. Attacking the opposing boat outside of the rudder and maybe sails is pretty pointless, but 3d8 damage on a foe is nothing to sneeze at. In "Raiders" one hit from a ballista eliminates a henchman, most of the time.
Once your casters are to the level that they can lob some big spells, this can be fun to soften up the other side before hand to hand combat. A wizard in the crow's nest with fireball can be a beast here. Other players can take this time to buff up with spells and items before entering melee. I even have a fighter in my game who got a buccaneer's breastplate and has run across the water to take the fight straight to the opposing captain. 120 feet as a full round action with some spider climb to quickly board a ship makes this viable. But assaulting the captain means the captain either defends himself or pilots the ship. Not piloting the ship makes it easier to catch. Flying characters can do similar things. These PCs need back up fast, but if the pilot has put a lot of resources into his sailor skill, he should be able to have the ships close very fast, most of the time.
I think the rules got a bum rap because they can be kind of fiddly with turning and facing and such until you get used to them. Just make sure that your non-pilot players know they have other options while the ships close besides standing there and twiddling their thumbs. Also, if one player doesn't want to pilot in combat all the time, that's understandable. No one wants to always be stuck driving the car. Let them trade the job out from fight to fight.
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Here is the post of someone who made their own rules as kind of a middle ground between the pathfinder rules and the Razer Coast rules.
this link goes to some unfinished rules I was making to get more in depth into the pirating aspect. Having to spend more time feeding and worrying about your crew, everyone having more pirate like actions in combat, there being good reasons to take the feats and become proficient with siege weapons. Take these with a grain of salt. THey are not finished or tested, and if I decide they take too long, I'll just go back to the basic pathfinder rules.
My group preferred the Fire as She Bears (FaSB)-rules over the SS-ones. SS made sgip-to-ship combat all about the boarding. The huge amount of HP ships have, coupled with the relative low damage output of siege weapons means that ships never sunk or were damaged beyond recovery and capture. In FaSB, that's a real danger, especially when facing larger warships.
I made an excel-sheet for building FaSB-ships on the fly. Feel free to use it (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7032675/FaSB%20ships.xlsx).
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One change I made for my campaign is how HP works for ships. I divide each ship into 4 sections (bow, after, port, starboard) and each section gets 1/4 of the HP. Sail HP is divided among each mast. Sections can be targeted or rolled randomly or facing can determine which section is hit. Every section of sail that is reduced to 0 reduces the speed by the appropriate amount, and if any section of the ship goes to 0, the ship gains the broken condition, and if two sections are reduced to 0, the ship is sinking. This makes combat a little quicker (ostensibly, ships only have half the HP), but it also means PCs have to worry more about maneuvering so they aren't sunk. At higher levels, this also allows the PCs to take on multiple opponents.
Something to consider is that sinking wooden ships was very difficult, even heavy cannon armed warships had trouble sinking each other during pitched battles, for instance at the Battle of Trafalgar no ships sank during the battle, it took a major storm after the battle to sink. One ship did burn and explode.
Prior to explosive shells sinking a ship was a major undertaking and boarding actions decided the result of most naval battles. The prelimianry gunfire crippled maneuverability , killed and wounded crewman and sometimes shatterred morale to the point that ships surrendered. Ballista's and catapults should not really be sinking ships easily.
But this is a fantasy game not a simulation of naval warfare so if its fun go with it. I will be happy that it is very hard to sink a ship with siege engines.
I've also been considering FaSB or someone's homebrew. Generally, though,with the S&S rules, all my PCs manage to have something to do each round or not mind waiting a round or two.
We are finding the pre-boarding action is all about the Upper Hand. Ships generally have the same speed and pilots tend to be able to make their checks. When in range, PCs have quickly learned to just target the pilot. (Remember that targets on another ship get cover!) So the Upper Hand tends to be what makes or break a ship chase.
I've also been considering FaSB or someone's homebrew. Generally, though,with the S&S rules, all my PCs manage to have something to do each round or not mind waiting a round or two.
We are finding the pre-boarding action is all about the Upper Hand. Ships generally have the same speed and pilots tend to be able to make their checks. When in range, PCs have quickly learned to just target the pilot. (Remember that targets on another ship get cover!) So the Upper Hand tends to be what makes or break a ship chase.
Could you please go over a detailed example of one of Your Battles? i am very intriged.
I use a mix of the rules, mostly on the fly, since only some players enjoy (or feel relevant in) ship to ship battling. I would like to see mostly how People deal with:
1 Distances for; Sail spotted, Chase (long/short..navigation, nighttime, Winds, currents...), Artillery, Offensive spells.
2 Buffing. If you start a mile off, People can buff to the sky. X amounts of buffs per round, no buffing until Boarding Actions?
3 Targets for Artillery and Spells. Do you let them take a pot shot with 20 ballistae at their poop deck?
4 Effects of Artillery on: Ship, Rigging (speed & maneuvrability), Crew, Officers, Cargo.
5 Effects of moving through enemy ship for PCs. Swarm damage, AoOs, Difficult terrain, Impassable terrain, Added enemies...
Extra: 2 npcs go ahead and dimensiondoor/fly/swim to the other ship before grappling ships. Who do they fight? All idle soldiers, officers or standard encounter?
My favourite way so far of dealing with crew to crew is the article in Wayfinder #8 (free) which is based on difficult terrain, swarm damage, opposed checks to take deck squares and morale/performance based on infamy. Its light weight and simple, affects the surroundings and the outcome.
Considering a "Deck Fight" phase where this is resolved, at end of innitiative.