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I am a fan of the marshal base class from the miniatures handbook that D&D put out a number of years back, and I even liked the warlord classes from 4th edition a little bit (though the whole problem with that system was that it turned *everyone* into a wizard . . . .). I would like your input regarding the idea of boosting the original class progression a fair amount, to pull it to more even standing with the Pathfinder core classes. There are a couple of people in my local playgroup who have expressed an interest in making use of the class, and I know i'll need a great deal of help to get it something like right.
Here are some of the ideas I am floating (and apologies in advance for the lack of precise language in places) :
1) Decisive Action (Ex) -- Once per day, the marshal may react to emerging conditions on the battlefield with remarkable quickness. As a swift action, the marshal may activate this ability and take either a move action or an attack action on the turn's current initiative count. A move action taken this way must involve tactical movement -- the marshal must move from his currently occupied square and end the movement in a different square; an attack action taken this way taken this way must be performed with a readied weapon and uses the marshal's highest base attack bonus. Due to the intense focus this requires on the marshal's part to execute, actions taken with the Decisive Action ability do not stack with extra actions granted by means of the haste spell or similar effects. The marshal gains one additional daily use of this ability at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.
2) Lesser Aura Mastery (Ex) -- At 10th level, the marshal's ability to react to the fluid conditions of warfare improves. He gains a pool of tactical points equal to 3 + 1/2 his marshal class level beyond 10th that renew after an 8-hour rest. A tactical point may be expended by the marshal as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity to grant one ally within range of the marshal's aura the benefit of one inactive minor aura the marshal knows for one round, in addition to the active minor aura the marshal has selected.
3) Greater Aura Mastery (Ex) -- At 19th level, the marshal's ability to guide his allies becomes legendary. The marshal may now have two active minor auras and one active major aura at all times. This allows the marshal to use his tactical points to grant a third aura benefit to an ally per the Lesser Aura Mastery ability.
Those are just a few ideas; got a couple more coming, but I am at work, and taking the time to type this little bit up is frowned upon!
4) "Battlefield Adaptation" (name needs work) -- This idea is less crystallized than the first three. I was thinking that a limited number of feat slots that the marshal could retrain on a daily basis would be cool. Keep them limited to the combat feats, and only those for which he meets the prereqs. Get those at levels 3, 8, 13, . . . *maybe* 18.
5) "Improved Tactics" -- Perhaps the ability to grant allies an additional benefit during their movement (or after it) when the marshal GMAs. The first idea that came to mind was being able to give them the benefit of Mobility during the GMA, provided that the marshal himself took it. Kind of a pseudo-cavalier teamwork boon that only functions during the GMA . . . .
6) THE BIG ONE -- I can't believe I forgot this idea in the first post: give the marshal 6 skill ranks per level! As much as I would love to see the marshal with full BAB, that would just be too strong; likewise with all good saves or a d10 HD. Better skill ranks seems reasonable, and logical.
So, any thoughts, good people?
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Limit the minor aura ability to a maximum bonus of +1 per two levels or something like that. Limiting the viability of a one-Level dip is important.
And I actually don't think full bab would be too much. Fighters, cavaliers, paladins, rangers, etc get a lot of bonuses and even everything you are discussing isn't as much as other 3/4 Bab classes like summoner, magus, inquisitor, and cleric get.
A full Bab Marshall would be an attractive class but not an obviously overpowered one-especially if the one-level dip problem was limited.
>>>> Elder Basilisk:
Is there something in particular that you're trying to limit by impeding the minor aura bonus? I can only think of Motivate Dexterity and possibly Art of War as the offending auras in a one-dip scenario. And regarding the combat maneuver aura -- that one would probably have to be houseruled into multiple auras, because a blanket boost to CMB attempts would certainly be broken. I don't have much trouble with the Dex aura, at this point, because it is the single greatest tool the marshal has to perform well -- make the whole team go first.
And you don't find those six suggestions too strong to add to the existing marshal class? I tried to keep them to (what *I* thought were) reasonable levels, but I was expecting to get some warnings away from Decisive Action or Battlefield Adaptation.
About the minor aura cap -- what if the maximum bonus scaled across class levels like this: 1/2 Charisma mod at levels 1 and 2, then 3/4 at 3 and 4, and then broke into full Cha mod mode at 5? That does more to punish people who actually *want* the class, but it would crush the dreams of multiclass dippers . . . .
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The thing I used to see frequently back in 3.5 days was a paladin or other high charisma class taking a single level of marshal for motivate dexterity and usually providing a +4 to +8 initiative bonus to the party for the one-level dip. That's not an absolutely terrible thing if the marshal is a straight-classed marshal, but it's too much for a one-level dip.
The reason that I encouraged allowing a maximum bonus based on level rather than a fractional bonus based on charisma mod is to limit the dipability of the class. If the limit is 1/2 charisma at level 1 and 2, then one level still nets a +4 if you have a +8 charisma (and most charisma focused characters will eventually have something like that).
As for the others, I don't think that any--or all of them together--are too strong for the marshal class. If you made them fullBAB as well, there might be a chance, but otherwise the marshal is still a flavorful but somewhat underpowered class. They won't bring as much group buffing to the table as a bard or as much individual power as a magus, inquisitor, summoner, or rogue. As such, I wouldn't see a player going the distance with the marshal class. When I was playing 3.5, I didn't find a single-class marshal very attractive; I ended up with a Marshal/Hexblade/Fighter. It was cool and I was unusual in taking more than one level or marshal but I was less than 50% marshal when the campaign ended.
>>>>Elder Basilisk
Well, let's try this out, by level (I will break up the items of the first five levels to keep them more distinct):
1) Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
1) Decisive Action 1/day
1) Minor aura +1 (requires +1 Cha mod)
2) Major aura +1
2) Minor aura +2 (requires +2 Cha mod)
3) Battlefield adaptation 1
3) Tactical pool
3) Minor aura +3 (requires +3 Cha mod)
4) Grant move action 1/day
4) Minor aura +4 (requires +4 Cha mod)
5) Decisive action 2/day
5) Minor aura +Cha mod (supersedes previous minor aura caps)
6) ------
7) Major aura +2
8) GMA 2/day, battlefield adaptation 2
9) Decisive action 3/day
10) Lesser aura mastery
11) ------
12) GMA 3/day
13) Decisive action 4/day, battlefield adaptation 3
14) Major aura +3
15) ------
16) GMA 4/day
17) Decisive action 5/day
18) Battlefield adaptation 4
19) Greater aura mastery
20) GMA 5/day, major aura +4
Two things -- First, I was thinking of putting all the relevant rules text for the minor aura progression at levels 1 and 5, and calling them "Non-commissioned Officer" and "Commissioned Officer". It would cap the minor aura progression to class level equivalency provided the character had a high enough Charisma score at the non-com levels, and then go to full Charisma modifier value at 5th and beyond. That's still a pretty steep hill to climb early on, and still rewards players that are willing to make the investment in the class, I think.
Second, you'll notice I moved the tactical pool down from where I placed it earlier (10th) and brought it down to level 3. This is where I bring up a modification a local gamer pal suggested -- enable the tactical pool earlier, make it 3 + 1/2 class level points per day, and maybe allow tactical points to be spent to retrain a battlefield adaptation feat on the fly. He mentioned that one of the fighter archetypes already has something similar to this, so it wouldn't likely be too far out there.
And this only assumes 3/4 BAB, good Fort/Will, and the 6 skill ranks upgrade.
Question 1) How would you recommend the combat maneuver bonus minor aura be divvied up? One for one? Or perhaps something like positioning (bull rush, overrun) and equipment (disarm, sunder)?
Question 2) Do you have any brainstorms about something that could be done to put some abilities at 6, 11, and 15? Increased tactical points? Maybe something like the 4th edition Commander's Strike at-will? . . . . well, that would be too strong with iterative attacks and such, probably.
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If it were up to me, I probably wouldn't break up the combat maneuver aura at all. Other than trip, dirty trick, and grapple, for characters dedicated to those builds (and spending multiple feats on them), combat maneuvers have pretty marginal utility. (And, of all of them, grapple is probably the one I've seen be the most useful when applied by characters who are not focused on it). Allowing a bonus for all of them would increase the odds of seeing a diverse assortment of combat maneuvers in play rather than just the one that the marshal chose and a couple of his allies built towards.
However, if you really wanted to break them up, I'd probably base them off of the pre-requisites for the improved feats. (I'd have them add to CMD vs these attacks too. The 3.5 bonus added to the opposed roll and was useful to both attack and defense).
Expertise maneuvers (Combat Expertise pre-req): Trip, Disarm, Dirty Trick, etc
Power Maneuvers (Power Attack pre-req): Sunder, Bull Rush, overrun, etc
Grapple Maneuvers (No pre-req--I think grapple is the only one): Grapple, etc.
The downside of that split is that the power maneuvers bonus collects a bunch of marginal maneuvers that are rarely used together and thus becomes the obviously weaker choice. Adapting some of the 3.5 style feats might change that (and might be worth it on its own--they made some interesting and tactical builds possible) but otherwise expertise and grapple bonuses are clearly superior. You might also include grapple in the power maneuvers category to even them out and figure that the bonus to sunder, bull rush, overrun, etc just means that your players might occasionally try to use them rather than pretending that they don't exist).
On the other subject, if you were to do something like commander's strike, it would probably fit into Pathfinder as an attack of opportunity--for example:
Commander's Strike: You make a
Standard action (automatic but the enemy gets a will save DC 10+1/2 level+cha mod)
Touch attack (easy)
Regular attack (not too hard)
Bluff (feint) check
The opponent provokes an opportunity attack from
One ally of your choice (who threatens him with a melee weapon)
All allies threatening him (the powerful version--note that this would include you unless you word it "all allies (other than yourself)")
I would probably go with the feint in combat version and start it as an opportunity attack from a single ally and scale it to all allies at level 15 (when the character would otherwise get 3 iterative attacks).
I would probably make it usable a set number of times per day or per encounter (a soft per encounter limit would be a +4 bonus on the sense motive check for every time the Marshal used it in the encounter) in order to avoid encouraging Marshals from dumping strength entirely and relying on the commander's strike version for offense.
>>>>>Elder Basilisk
I see your point about the CMB aura. I do rather like the expertise/power split you mentioned, but the more I think about the particulars, the more it seems a single aura is reasonable -- not all combat maneuvers work well together, and it's far more rare for people to invest in them at all . . . . except where they prompt free attacks.
Now, about the pseudo-commander's-strike:
I like the scaling element regarding how many allies can take advantage of the effect being based on the iterative attack rate. I wouldn't want to include the marshal himself on the benefit -- that many free AoOs versus one foe in a round, even if it could only be done a few times a day, might be too much. The next thing that occurred to me was this -- wouldn't such a thing be almost the equivalent of three feats? Improved Feint, Greater Feint, and a "Bluffed Opportunity" feat? That screams a hard limit of daily uses to me.
And there's another angle to this, too -- we wouldn't want such an ability to railroad a party, or the marshal. What about an either/or similar to the ranger combat styles? Offer a melee version or a ranged version . . . . Or should that be something the marshal could select each time he or she uses the ability?
Gotta go do more work. Ugh. Thanks for all the feedback!
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>>>>>Elder Basilisk
I see your point about the CMB aura. I do rather like the expertise/power split you mentioned, but the more I think about the particulars, the more it seems a single aura is reasonable -- not all combat maneuvers work well together, and it's far more rare for people to invest in them at all . . . . except where they prompt free attacks.
Now, about the pseudo-commander's-strike:
I like the scaling element regarding how many allies can take advantage of the effect being based on the iterative attack rate. I wouldn't want to include the marshal himself on the benefit -- that many free AoOs versus one foe in a round, even if it could only be done a few times a day, might be too much. The next thing that occurred to me was this -- wouldn't such a thing be almost the equivalent of three feats? Improved Feint, Greater Feint, and a "Bluffed Opportunity" feat? That screams a hard limit of daily uses to me.
And there's another angle to this, too -- we wouldn't want such an ability to railroad a party, or the marshal. What about an either/or similar to the ranger combat styles? Offer a melee version or a ranged version . . . . Or should that be something the marshal could select each time he or she uses the ability?
Gotta go do more work. Ugh. Thanks for all the feedback!
An alternative scaling to "single ally" -> "multiple allies" -> "all allies" might be to scale it "standard action" -> "move action" - > "swift action." That said, swift action would probably be overpowered if combined with AoOs from multiple allies or more than a very few times per day.
On the other hand, if you make it an actual "feint" check then the Improved Feint feat will make it a move action already, so that particular scaling mechanism probably won't work.
Here is an old conversion I made before Teamwork Feats were a thing. I would probably throw in some swift action 1 round buffs and immediate action 1 round defenses into it too. Maybe even some healing surges and stuff. And maybe even 3 mental combat styles, one each for Int, Wis, and Cha. But I don't want it to be overwhelming.
Marshal
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Marshals are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor, and Shields (but not tower shields).
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Minor Auras, Project 1 Minor Aura, Skill Focus
2. Major Aura, Major Aura +1, Project 1 Major Aura
3. Grant Extra Action 1/day
4. Great Ally +3
5. Major Aura +2
6. Grant Extra Action 2/day
7. 2 Minor Auras
8. Great Ally, +4 Improved Aid Another (move action)
9. Grant Extra Action 3/day
10. Major Aura +3
11. Project 2 Major Auras
12. Grant Extra Action 4/day, Great Ally +5
13. Project 3 Minor Auras
14. Widen Aura
15. Grant Extra Action 5/day, Major Aura +4
16. Great Ally + 6, Improved Aid Another (swift action)
17. Free Auras
18. Grant Extra Action 6/day
19. Project 4 Minor Auras
20. Project 3 Major Auras, Major Aura +5, Great Ally +7
Minor Auras (Ex). At 1st level, the Marshal knows 2 minor auras. He learns 1 additional minor aura each class level. Each aura affects all allies within 60 feet. Minor Auras provide a bonus equal to the Marshal's Charisma bonus (minimum +1). Each aura provides a bonus to something different.
Projecting an aura is a swift action, and the aura persists until the Marshal takes another swift action to change the aura or a free action to cease projecting the aura.
At 7th level, the Marshal can project 2 Minor Auras simultaneously.
At 13th level, the Marshal can project 3 Minor Auras simultaneously.
At 19th level, the Marshal can project 4 Minor Auras simultaneously.
Confirm Critical Hits
Combat Manuver Bonus
Combat Manuver Defense
Fortitude Saves
Reflex Saves
Will Saves
Caster Level Checks and Concentration checks
AC vs AoOs
Attack rolls on AoOs
Damage rolls on AoOs
Damage rolls when flanking
Charisma checks
Constitution checks
Dexterity checks
Intelligence checks
Strength checks
Wisdom checks
Damage when charging
AC vs Charge
Added to Cure spells and Channel Energy
Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
x5 to speed when using the withdrawl action
x5 to speed when charging
Initiative and Perception checks
Skill Focus. The Marshal gets Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Major Aura (Ex). Beginning at 2nd level, the Marshal can project a Major Aura. The bonus granted by a Major Aura is +1. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, the amount of the Major Aura increases by +1. A Major Aura affects all allies within 60 feet of the Marshal.
The Marshall learns 1 Major Aura at 2nd level, and 1 additional Major Aura at every even level thereafter.
Projecting a Major Aura is a swift action. A Major Aura persists until the Marshal takes a swift action to change the aura, or he takes a free action to cease projecting the aura.
At 11th level, the Marshal can project 2 Major Auras simultaneously.
At 20th level, the Marshal can project 3 Major Auras simultaneously.
Each Major Aura provides its bonus to one of the following.
DR 1/-
Damage rolls
Attack Rolls
AC
Saving Throws
Speed increases by 5 feet per bonus
Energy Resistance (acid, cold, electrical, fire, or sonic) 5 x bonus
Fast Healing (up to one half the ally's maximum hit points)
Energy Shield 2 x bonus
Spell Resistance 5 + 5 per bonus
Ability Damage and Ability Drain Resistance
Negative Level Resistance
Grant Extra Action (Ex). Beginning at 3rd level, the Marshal can grant all allies within 60 feet an extra move action once per day. Each ally must use this extra move action immediately.
At 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the Marshal gains an additional daily use of this ability.
At 6th level, the Marshal can spend 2 of his daily uses of Grant Extra Action and grant an extra standard action to all his allies within 60 feet. Each ally must use this extra standard action immediately.
At 9th level, the Marshal can spend 3 of his daily uses of Grant Extra Action and grant an extra full round action to all his allies within 60 feet. Each ally must use this extra full round action immediately.
Great Ally (Ex). Beginning at 4th level, whenever the Marshal uses or benefits from the Aid Another action or flanking, he provides or receives a +3 bonus instead of +2. This increases to +4 at 8th level, +5 at 12th level, +6 at 16th level, and +7 at 20th level.
Improved Aid Another (Ex). At 8th level, the Marshal can use the Aid Another action as a move action instead of a standard action.
At 16th level, he can use Aid Another as a swift action.
Widen Aura (Ex). At 14th level, the Marshal can choose to use 1 less than the maximum number of one type (Major or Minor) of aura he can project and double the range of the other auras of that type.
Free Auras (Ex). At 17th level, the Marshal can project a new aura as a free action instead of a swift action. This allows him to project or change multiple auras in the same round.
>>>>>SmiloDan
That's a *strong* build, man. Maybe too strong, seems to me. Running 3 major auras at one time is unbelievably powerful -- this feels like a pool of options that would make a marshal able to take the place of any caster or full BAB class, depending upon aura choices. I don't know if that's too much or not, since I have never really gotten to play at high levels in any format, but, . . . . Wow. And 4 minors at once is all kinds of strong -- initiative, charging speed, charging damage, and AC vs AoOs would be the dream set for my current playgroup . . . .
I do like what you did with the scaling of the GEA -- burn extra uses to increase the type of action allowed. That's quite awesome.
The aid another boosts are impressive . . . . Most impressive.
Just to help with my learning curve, what criteria did you use to inform this ability array? What were the details behind the build that led to such strong options?
Oh, and another question: what are the details on the Energy Shield major aura? Is it different from the Energy Resistance major aura?
>>>>>Elder Basilisk
I like the idea of using the feint maneuvers to execute team attacks . . . . Going back to the factors we've discussed, could it scale at 6, 11, and 15 for one ally, then two, then three, and for the cost of one tactical point as a standard action? Feint check versus one target, success allows the respective number of allies to make an attack versus that target?
And how would all of these abilities stack up with full BAB now?
Thanks for the input, folks!
Energy Shield is like fire shield, based on the dragon shaman in PH2.
I never playtested this, but I did play a high level dragon shaman
(levels 1 through 15-ish).
Pardon the thread necromancy, but I really like the idea of limiting the minor aura bonus to 1/2 your Marshal level, up to a maximum equal to your Charisma modifier.
I don't think 3 major auras at 20th level will be game breaking. It's 20th level, after all! Usually just the big final encounter with the campaign's BBEG, right?
I also want to incorporate Teamwork Feats into this somehow. Maybe halve the number of minor auras learned and grant bonus TW feats at 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18?