Hello forum, haven't posted on the homebrew boards for a long time but I need your help now.
I'm making a campaign setting and trying to develop a pantheon of nine gods to start out with (I'll likely add more as I develop the world). My initial inspiration for this setting was the idea of a city with six districts, each with a patron Lawful or Neutral god, the Chaos gods have a presence but no physical location to control (CG vigilantes, CN beggars, and CE murderers do not an ordered society make).
I'm pretty happy with the first eight gods but am a bit stuck on who will fill in the True Neutral slot. A nature god would fit the bill, but I already have a NG god filling that role and it's going to be at least initially an urban based campaign so two nature gods seems overkill.
What other aspects of NN could make a good god? Specifically, one that could attract a decent sized group of worshipers to run a district.
Hello forum, haven't posted on the homebrew boards for a long time but I need your help now.
I'm making a campaign setting and trying to develop a pantheon of nine gods to start out with (I'll likely add more as I develop the world). My initial inspiration for this setting was the idea of a city with six districts, each with a patron Lawful or Neutral god, the Chaos gods have a presence but no physical location to control (CG vigilantes, CN beggars, and CE murderers do not an ordered society make).
I'm pretty happy with the first eight gods but am a bit stuck on who will fill in the True Neutral slot. A nature god would fit the bill, but I already have a NG god filling that role and it's going to be at least initially an urban based campaign so two nature gods seems overkill.
What other aspects of NN could make a good god? Specifically, one that could attract a decent sized group of worshipers to run a district.
death?
death?
Death could work. It might be more of an uninhabited district of graves rather than a bustling one.
I would have to figure out what angle to go with it though. Obviously the a murder/death god would be more evil, and I've always felt Pharasma's "Judge of The Dead" thing made her more LN than N.
Maybe Birth and Death? Newborns probably have a True Neutral alignment.
Maybe consider letting Nature have the neutral spot and then find a different god for the NG spot?
Nature is almost never "good" - all of life is simply a struggle to eat, a struggle to survive, and a struggle to reproduce, and everything is food for something else. Nature is not pretty and it's definitely not nice.
Just a thought.
On that, some ideas for a NG god might be community or charity or healing or mediation or agriculture.
Maybe Birth and Death? Newborns probably have a True Neutral alignment.
Not newborn goblins...
(runs and hides - even a tarrasque is not immune to these flames)...
Well, death is impartial. Death comes for everyone, and good and evil alike try to avoid it. It's the great equalizer. I'd say your idea of having the Neutral district be the graveyard/mortician district is a good one. There's also the idea that Death doesn't really have an agenda, because like it or not everything ends there eventually. Also, as the sort of "Ninth God" right smack dab in the middle, you could have its themes incorporate just about everything impartial; a nature god could be wrath and storms, blizzards, or growth. These things all are going somewhere, because ice melts and provides water during the summer, fire will kill old growth but allow new, etc. But Death's neutral "force of nature" stuff would be things like starvation, thirst, exposure, or bad luck. It'd be the god everyone gives a little offering to but nobody worships.
Think of something that's important but not something inherently related to good, evil, order, or disorder. Or one that reasonably has a mixture of traits.
How about Goddess of the Seasons? It's not nature, but she has a love/hate relationship with the god of nature. She can bring life and renewal (good) but also kills and decays with winter (evil). She has a predictable, orderly cycle (law), but she changes frequently (chaos). This would give her a True Neutral alignment. Many would worship her to be forgiving in the winter and generous during the spring and summer.
The Watcher. God of History and keeper of secrets. The district has lots of libraries and banks of information. Maybe for a price? Or not.
The Watcher. God of History and keeper of secrets. The district has lots of libraries and banks of information. Maybe for a price? Or not.
Maybe not even explicitly a keeper of secrets, but a god (and followers) who just notes everything that ever happens. The court scribe of the universe. Just so happens that some things are forgotten by others and may become secrets that way, but the god is always willing to give knowledge to those who seek it.
Maybe consider letting Nature have the neutral spot and then find a different god for the NG spot?
Nature is almost never "good" - all of life is simply a struggle to eat, a struggle to survive, and a struggle to reproduce, and everything is food for something else. Nature is not pretty and it's definitely not nice.
Just a thought.
On that, some ideas for a NG god might be community or charity or healing or mediation or agriculture.
The "Nature God" I have is more of a god of healing and kindness and friend to all living creatures. Super Disney princess style. If I took that away I would have to rethink her whole design.
God of Fair Trade. Often bastardized into a god of trading by the unenlightened, but actually a Monad-like god for whom every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The faithful seek to understand the flowing motion of weal and woe, which they believe is always equal, but never even. By understanding it, they can direct the flow of health and harm to wherever they desire. Sort of a less chaotic version of Luck, I guess.
Just for reference here are the gods I have set so far (names omitted till I'm happy with them).
LG, King of the Sky, Father of Eagles
Air, Glory, Good, Law, Nobility, Protection
LN The Architect, Lady of Towers
Artifice, Knowledge, Law, Protection, Rune
LE The Jailer, Hell's General
Darkness, Earth, Evil, Law, Strength, War
NG Shepherd of the Weak, The New Dawn
Animal, Good, Healing, Plant, Sun
N ???
NE The Black Genie, The Merchant of Death
Charm, Evil, Fire, Magic, Trickery
CG The Divine Vigilante, Cheerful Batman
Chaos, Glory, Good, Liberation, Strength, Travel
CN The Mad God, The Prince of Paupers
Animal, Chaos, Luck, Madness, Travel
CE The Hate-Spark, The Destroyer
Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil, Fire, War
Balance. Cycles. Life and death. Day and Night. Arcane and Divine. Good and Evil. Chaos and Law. For his domains, you can take any two you want as long as they are opposites. For oracles I dunno. No cleric of him may take an archetype that restricts you to one domain slot. (like undead lord)
Animals,
Specifically beasts whom are a threat to others, but are good to their own kind such as intelligent wolves and hyenas....
A focus on balance,Between civilization and nature, the living and spirits? Possibly they still hunt, maybe they hunt humanoids and defend nature?
OH GOD
NEUTRAL F#*%ING GNOLL SOCIETY BABY
just take out the torture fluff and you got youself something interesting.
Neutral concepts:
Magic/Alchemy/Science/Knowledge
Time
Trade
Death
Deist absent creator, powerful but uninvolved now, which would be a source of power but makes no demands on followers and takes no active steps on their behalf.
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ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
The god of void, the nothingness in-between. Domains: Darkness, Magic, Knowledge, Madness. Oracle Mysteries: Dark tapestry (duh)
Yeah, there's a neutral good god of madness right?
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Just for reference here are the gods I have set so far (names omitted till I'm happy with them).
LG, King of the Sky, Father of Eagles
Air, Glory, Good, Law, Nobility, ProtectionLN The Architect, Lady of Towers
Artifice, Knowledge, Law, Protection, RuneLE The Jailer, Hell's General
Darkness, Earth, Evil, Law, Strength, WarNG Shepherd of the Weak, The New Dawn
Animal, Good, Healing, Plant, SunN ???
NE The Black Genie, The Merchant of Death
Charm, Evil, Fire, Magic, TrickeryCG The Divine Vigilante, Cheerful Batman
Chaos, Glory, Good, Liberation, Strength, TravelCN The Mad God, The Prince of Paupers
Animal, Chaos, Luck, Madness, TravelCE The Hate-Spark, The Destroyer
Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil, Fire, War
I'm curious as to the process you you came up with these gods. Their names/titles are very concise, yet they seem to give a pretty good feeling of what their personalities and goals are as (albeit divine) characters more than simply what aspects of life they represent in their portfolio. Like, these deities not bound by a simple literal concept but rather can represent a mashup of several (sometimes interestingly paradoxical) concepts that could be interpreted several ways.
What sort of role/character did you you have in mind for your Neutral deity?
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death?Death could work. It might be more of an uninhabited district of graves rather than a bustling one.
I would have to figure out what angle to go with it though. Obviously the a murder/death god would be more evil, and I've always felt Pharasma's "Judge of The Dead" thing made her more LN than N.
Death fits, but instead of Pharasma's overbearing control (which I agree seems more Lawful Neutral than Neutral), have the Death deity be more of a gofer who is just trying to straighten out what goes where to some reasonable approximation of proper destination (not even trying to keep up the illusion of getting it perfect). Maybe even reflavor Charon as the non-Evil (still non-Good) CEO of the Soul Riverian Ferry Company. Can still be a top-level Daemon, but has decided to focus on upholding an honest and impartial reputation for getting things where they are supposed to go (and only thinly veiling willingness to break rules to accromplish this, for the right steep but still affordable price).
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Just for reference here are the gods I have set so far (names omitted till I'm happy with them).
LG, King of the Sky, Father of Eagles
Air, Glory, Good, Law, Nobility, ProtectionLN The Architect, Lady of Towers
Artifice, Knowledge, Law, Protection, RuneLE The Jailer, Hell's General
Darkness, Earth, Evil, Law, Strength, WarNG Shepherd of the Weak, The New Dawn
Animal, Good, Healing, Plant, SunN ???
NE The Black Genie, The Merchant of Death
Charm, Evil, Fire, Magic, TrickeryCG The Divine Vigilante, Cheerful Batman
Chaos, Glory, Good, Liberation, Strength, TravelCN The Mad God, The Prince of Paupers
Animal, Chaos, Luck, Madness, TravelCE The Hate-Spark, The Destroyer
Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil, Fire, War
I'm curious as to the process you you came up with these gods. Their names/titles are very concise, yet they seem to give a pretty good feeling of what their personalities and goals are as (albeit divine) characters more than simply what aspects of life they represent in their portfolio. Like, these deities not bound by a simple literal concept but rather can represent a mashup of several (sometimes interestingly paradoxical) concepts that could be interpreted several ways.
What sort of role/character did you you have in mind for your Neutral deity?
Thanks! Honestly I came up with them as if they were characters. I essentially came up with a bunch of character concepts as if i was making a PC but then deified them.
As for the role/character that's what I keep being unhappy with. I started with:
N The Weeping God, The Prince of Consolation
Darkness, Repose, Water, Weather
But his motivation was what was giving me grief. I think I'm going to make him a death god more of the classical psychopomp variety, replace "Weeping God" with "Mourning God" and have him be very empathetic to the mortal struggle while still ultimately a bystander, not actually interfering (thus the N alignment).
That... sounds really good. What don't you still like about it?
Now... I do like it. It was only after a day of thinking about it and reading comments that I've figured out exactly what I wanted to do with this god.
He started as sort of a god of fatalism, and I couldn't really figure out how to make an organized religion based on that. That's what I meant when I said "his motivation was what was giving me grief".
I may muddle around with his domains though. The weather domain is only in there as a sort of inside joke about his rain and tears.
As an aside, one of the CG god's titles is not Cheerful Batman, that's just a place-holder till I come up with a good secondary title for him.
My suggestion would be to leave the spot open. Nobody knows if there ever was a N deity, nor have any clear legends survived beyond various references to "the Nine". It's a missing hole in the pantheon, leading to a variety of possible plot hooks, secrets and ancient knowledge material. Even weirder... why would someone want to kill a Neutral deity? What a Neutral alignment brings to the table in a pantheon is a shared perspective with all the other gods, the diplomat that can broker peace among them. That just makes it even weirder why that god was (likely) killed.
My suggestion would be to leave the spot open. Nobody knows if there ever was a N deity, nor have any clear legends survived beyond various references to "the Nine". It's a missing hole in the pantheon, leading to a variety of possible plot hooks, secrets and ancient knowledge material. Even weirder... why would someone want to kill a Neutral deity? What a Neutral alignment brings to the table in a pantheon is a shared perspective with all the other gods, the diplomat that can broker peace among them. That just makes it even weirder why that god was (likely) killed.
Ah, but there aren't only nine gods in this world. This is just a set of gods that see heavy worship in one city of one nation. I wanted to have at least one god for each alignment represented here but will likely introduce others as I expand the world.
I've only been working on this campaign setting for two days and I want to get a usable area up and running for games as soon as possible. Minimum workable content.
Ah ok. =)
your LN and NG ones cover a lot of what i would put as 'neutral'.
Some simple suggestions (can even be combined). Both these would be gods that are busy with bigger things than mortal individuals, but care about balance on a larger scale. Both could have weather as part of their domain.
- the ocean. Gives and takes, calm and violent.
- time. Seasons, lifecycles, birth and death.
your LN and NG ones cover a lot of what i would put as 'neutral'.
Some simple suggestions (can even be combined). Both these would be gods that are busy with bigger things than mortal individuals, but care about balance on a larger scale. Both could have weather as part of their domain.
- the ocean. Gives and takes, calm and violent.
- time. Seasons, lifecycles, birth and death.
Sorry if I sound like I'm dissing your advice, but that coverage was kind of on purpose.
I didn't want your run-of-the-mill N nature god, I get tired of those pretty quick. I see gods as, at least in part, a way to personify certain ideas (domains). By personifying the domain you take things that are by nature amoral and give them human or human-like minds, and anything capable of intelligent choice is a moral creature, capable of choosing good or evil.
My NG god is a caretaker and protector, interested in the life and well-being of all creatures. She is a patron to both doctors and veterinarians, as well as farmers who grow the food that supports her children.
So yeah, she has domain over plants and animals who are Neutral, but she cares for them out of love which is one of the biggest signs of Good.
Edit: And I'm not quite seeing how the LN god's domains lean her towards true Neutral. She's very much into orderly building and logic.
Hmmm, perhaps the war artisan
N - The divine general, scholar of battle
war, travel, knowledge, magic, luck
- a deity known for warfare strategy and tactics, yet not involved in ethics of warfare.
or
the conflicted one
N - deity of extremes and dichotomy
fire, water, chaos, law, madness
- A deity constantly at war with itself due to a dual nature. For every action taken, an equally powerful action is taken to balance such an act out. Prone to wild mood swings and contrary behavior.
You do not have a god of magic, neither of trade.
How about a Twin god of Dualism?
The Twins
TN The Twins, Arbiter of the Gods,
Magic, Travel(Trade), Water, Luck,
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Magic, Knowledge, Time, Trade and Names / Measurement (ancient rulers were sometimes depicted with a measuring rod, as a symbol of rulership, as it was the ruler that ultimately decided what things were worth, by setting standards of length/weight/etc. Both units of time and measurements of land would also be covered here, making the god also an arbiter of land ownership and the seasons.) Symbol might be the moon or the tides or a falling autumn leaf, something that changes visibly over time and can be used as a system of measurement.
Knowledge would tie to the urge to discover and classify things (such as learning to use scales to tell pure gold from alloyed gold of less value, or instance, or tell different breeds of grains or animals of more or less value apart). Magic comes from the discovery of the occult secrets of the world, which the adherents of this god would claim stems from learning to truly understand something. To affect an item or person with magic, they would want to know as much as possible about it, name, place of origin/date of birth, weight, etc., believing that once one truly knows a thing, one can influence that thing. Trade obviously ties into measurements, as well.
This god could be a god of the natural philosopher, who seeks out new things and gives them names, believing that naming a thing is the first step to placing it under control.
Measurments would be law ;-)
Because to measure means bringing order to chaos.
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Thanks! Honestly I came up with them as if they were characters. I essentially came up with a bunch of character concepts as if i was making a PC but then deified them.As for the role/character that's what I keep being unhappy with. I started with:
N The Weeping God, The Prince of Consolation
Darkness, Repose, Water, WeatherBut his motivation was what was giving me grief. I think I'm going to make him a death god more of the classical psychopomp variety, replace "Weeping God" with "Mourning God" and have him be very empathetic to the mortal struggle while still ultimately a bystander, not actually interfering (thus the N alignment).
My gods, that's genius! A god of death that mourns and grieves should be intuitive given the association between sadness and death, but I've not seen it done a lot before. It fits that a neutral god might have sympathies for almost everyone too- neutrality need not be indifference; it can also be ambivalence, the contested feelings in reaction to a situation.
Perhabs your god of death, being the one who ultimately knows death and the pain it can bring first hand, is also an arbitrator or mediator of conflict. (That seems like a missing role in your cosmology, one who binds everyone else in the pantheon together.) With that, the role as negotiator, you could put a new spin on death being the ultimate so-called equalizer.
Edit: Of course, the style of arbitration may very from sect to sect of the church (since N allows the most variance in alignment- N, NG, NE, LN, CN) and how to respond to death for that matter- whether to delay/defy it, make sure it's very final, accept it with grace, or seek (un)life after death.
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Actually, first thing that comes to mind for a True Neutral god would be a god(dess) of home and hearth.
Good helps others at the expense of the self, Evil helps the self at the expense of others, Neutral helps themselves (which includes their family/friends/group) and lets everybody else help themselves as well.
Law believes strict rules are not only good, but necessary for civilization, Chaos believes that free will is king. Neutral follows the rules as best they can but otherwise just goes with the flow.
Most common folk are actually True Neutral, they don't bend to either extreme on either axis arm. So what kind of god would represent the common person who only wants to keep their head down, raise their family, and make it safely to death via old age?
A god(dess) of home and hearth, who doesn't promise extravagance and luxury, valor or great deeds, but simply promises to give you a warm fire and a soft bed for the rest of your days, with enough food to keep your belly full.
Measurments would be law ;-)
Because to measure means bringing order to chaos.
Unless the standards of measurement are different everywhere (even when using the same unit names), as was the case on Earth until only a couple of centuries ago . . . Even recently, getting English and Metric units of measurement will get you some Chaos.
Might have to borrow your pantheon, or at least some ideas from it, sometime! :D