Shovel Knight

[Crillitor]

As title suggests, I want to make a character in pfs that uses a shovel instead of a conventional weapons. I would take catch off guard at the beginning of his development and improvised weapon mastery later on when available.

My question would be thus: could I buy a masterwork shovel, knowing full well that it is an improvised weapon? If so, how much would it be?

I guess the real question is "can someone buy masterwork improvised weapons?"

[baradakas]

Masterwork tools are better tools, not better weapons.

[Laif]

Adamantine Shovel, should be MW and you can go throught every fortress digging holes xD

[Secane]

You can't make a MW improvised weapon unfortunately.

However... You can use a MW weapon or +X weapon as an improvised weapon with the Monk of the Empty Hand archetype.

Also if you do want to make an improvised weapon character. Do pick up the Surprise Weapon, combat trait.

Surprise Weapon

Source Ultimate Campaign pg. 54
You are skilled at fighting with objects not traditionally considered weapons. You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons.

[Paz]

Crillitor wrote:

I guess the real question is "can someone buy masterwork improvised weapons?"

I don't believe so. You could have a masterwork club (that you refer to as a shovel), eventually making it a magical weapon, but you wouldn't benefit from the feats relying on it being an improvised weapon (because it isn't, it's a finely-crafted 'combat shovel').

If you have plenty of spare time, read this thread to see some past debate on this topic, along with the scope for table variation you might encounter.

[BigNorseWolf]

No.

However most of the reason to get a masterwork weapon is to get a magic weapon. If you were an oracle of battle or a warpriest though it would be almost a non issue.

[Jiggy]

Unfortunately, the Pathfinder system doesn't accommodate nontraditional fighting styles very well, at least past the very early levels. Wealth/gear in Pathfinder is functionally a second XP track, so relying on a build element that can't advance money-wise is basically like every so often voluntarily declining to gain your next level/feat/class feature.

[Brigg]

If you're looking to specialize in improvised weapons, might I direct you toward the "Cad" fighter Archetype. They get "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat at level 3, and they get some other skills that help boost the effectiveness of improvised weapons (Razor-sharp Chair Leg comes to mind. And yes, that's the actual name of the ability)

As far as the Shovel Goes, when he is able to afford it, might I suggest:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

GRAVEDIGGER'S SPADE

Aura moderate conjuration and transmutation; CL 8th
Slot none;Price 12,150 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
Description
The sturdy, well-polished oaken shaft and the sharp blade attached
to its tip allow this magical staff to be used as a masterwork
shovel when not employed in spellcasting.
Expeditious excavation (1 charge)
Create pit (2 charges)
Spiked pit (5 charges)
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Staff, expeditious excavation, create pit, spiked pit; Cost 6,100 gp

I bolded "Masterwork Shovel" to point out that shovels CAN be made masterwork. They just don't get any bonus to hit or anything like that because it's not an actual weapon. But this shovel can still be used as an improvised weapon.

[Kalindlara]

I have a player in my (home game of) Serpent's Skull who wanted to do this, albeit with a lore warden martial master.

Is the trait Rough and Ready (from Adventurer's Armory) legal in PFS? It lets you use a "tool of your trade" as a weapon, ignoring the improvised penalty and with a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls.

Anyway, that's what we used. Hope this helps. :)

[Brigg]

Ooh ooh ooh!

A masterwork Crowbar works, too! And that provides a +2 bonus to break locks and doors!

[Jack Amy]

There is of course, the 'Monk's Spade'.

[Crillitor]

This would be for a core PFS character so the archetype stuff would sadly not work. Would what Laif said earlier work though? Would making an adamantine shovel make it count as masterwork?

[Sniggevert]

It would count as a masterwork tool, not a masterwork weapon.

[UnArcaneElection]

I so much want the OP to be able to pull off this.

[Randarak]

Someone's been watching Mystery Men.

I got ninja'd

[Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily"]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

I so much want the OP to be able to pull off this.

Exactly what I was thinking.

"Lucille, God gave me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well."

[RainyDayNinja]

My cleric got a shovel as a masterwork tool for Profession (miner), and used the Rough and Ready trait to use it as a weapon. You'll definitely want to be able to either use Arcane Strike or cast Greater Magic Weapon eventually, since you won't be able to enchant it.

[Jeff Merola]

Randarak wrote:

Someone's been watching Mystery Men.

I got ninja'd

Actually, he's probably been playing Shovel Knight.

[Crillitor]

Little bit of shovel knight. Little bit of mystery men.

Where does it say that you can't make masterwork improvised weapons?

Was thinking a Paladian for a while that would empower the shovel with divine bond

[Jiggy]

Crillitor wrote:

Where does it say that you can't make masterwork improvised weapons?

Core Rulebook, Equipment chapter, Improvised Weapons wrote:

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use...

Making it a masterwork weapon (or a +1 weapon, etc) causes it to stop fitting the definition of an improvised weapon. An object cannot simultaneously be crafted to be an exceptionally effective weapon AND be "not crafted to be a weapon".

[Jack Amy]

Is there anything stopping you from skinning a weapon into being a shovel (I could see this causing problems at some tables if you wanted to actually shovel something with your skinned halberd though)?

[Crillitor]

Damn. In that case... what would be the closest weapon to a shovel to re-skin it as? Battleships in the shape of a shovel?

[Sniggevert]

Crillitor wrote:

Damn. In that case... what would be the closest weapon to a shovel to re-skin it as? Battleships in the shape of a shovel?

Someone mentioned above the closest choice (IMO), the monk's spade.

[Alex McGuire]

An axe.

[Rei]

Someone in PFS Finland made a Shovel Knight a while back - or as we refer to them, the Shovelier. Here's their character sheet.

[BigNorseWolf]

Jack Amy wrote:

Is there anything stopping you from skinning a weapon into being a shovel (I could see this causing problems at some tables if you wanted to actually shovel something with your skinned halberd though)?

Yes.

1) the no reskinning rules
2) shovels have mechanical benefits, like getting people out of rockslides.

[Imbicatus]

Traits are important.

Humble Beginnings allows you to skip Catch Off-Guard.

Surprise Weapon will give you a plus two to hit, off-setting the inability to enchant improvised weapons.

Also, Deliquescent Gloves will give any weapon held the corrosive property, allowing you to bypass magic DR and do acid damage.

[Crillitor]

Those traits would be so cool... if only this wasn't for a core character

[Imbicatus]

Some concepts just don't work for a core game. An improvised weapon specialist is one of them.

[IronHelixx]

Maybe a Monk's spade? It is technically a sharpened shovel on one end. Not exactly what you are looking for, but close. IMAGE, used as tool

Edit: Use it like this. ;b

[Cao Phen]

Joseph Kellogg wrote:

My cleric got a shovel as a masterwork tool for Profession (miner), and used the Rough and Ready trait to use it as a weapon. You'll definitely want to be able to either use Arcane Strike or cast Greater Magic Weapon eventually, since you won't be able to enchant it.

Unless the OP is going to dip into an arcane class, Arcane Strike might be out of the picture.

[Dafydd]

Well, it is not normal PFS for long, however...

A Staff Magus with the Gravedigger Spade allows them to use that "shovel" as a weapon (a +2 non-improvised weapon).

In Core, I am not sure you could do this past level 3 or so.

[Brigg]

Crillitor wrote:

Those traits would be so cool... if only this wasn't for a core character

Respectfully, I feel this topic should be shifted to the "Core Forum", since you're seeking advice on a Core character build.

[Crillitor]

I did not realize there was a core specific forum. I'm not sure how to fix that.

After seeing the proof of concept in the Finnish shovel knight, I still realize that I still want to keep the using of regular shovels.

Feats: catch off guard, improvised weapon mastery
Large shovel: -2 to hit due to size, 1d8 improvised club. Will become 2d6 w/ improvised weapon mastery.

I see a lot of oil of magic weapon in my future.

Unless I'm misinterpreting it, I believe the paladin's divine bond will enhance the shovel with magic for combat.

[grandpoobah]

Crillitor, you should peruse some older threads on what you can and cannot do with improvised weapons. There is discussion on what you can do with them and how they can be used, as they are not technically weapons and cannot benefit from all the things weapons benefit from.

For Example:
You may not be able to apply oil of magic weapon (or similar effects) to an improvised weapon (it’s not a weapon)
You may not be able to use Divine Bond (or similar effects) to an improvised weapon.
You may not be able to purchase an improvised weapon made of special material in PFS (as the rules do not cover it). Even if you can, the item may not be able to perform as a weapon (it may not beat DR).
You cannot take feats that apply to weapons (like weapon focus).

In a non-core situation, you may be limited to the point of uselessness, depending on table variation. I would not recommend this build without further research.

[BigNorseWolf]

This takes some work in classic. In core? Its really not going to work.

[Harley Quinn X]

No one's pointed out Refine Improvised Weapon yet? It's pretty much what the spell's made for.

Quote:

Refine Improvised Weapon

School transmutation; Level cleric 1, inquisitor 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, DF

Range touch

Target one improvised weapon

Duration 1 hour/level (D)

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

You transform an improvised weapon into an equivalent simple or martial weapon of masterwork quality. This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way. For example, if this spell is cast on a chair leg, a butter knife, or a pitchfork, the items function as a masterwork club, a masterwork dagger, or a masterwork trident, respectively, but the items look no different than they did before the spell was cast.

I've got an inquisitor bonking things over the head with a waffle iron.

[Brigg]

grandpoobah wrote:

.You may not be able to purchase an improvised weapon made of special material in PFS (as the rules do not cover it). Even if you can, the item may not be able to perform as a weapon (it may not beat DR). You cannot take feats that apply to weapons (like weapon focus).

The only thing that possibly contradicts this is the "Trusty Buddy". it's a masterwork adamantine crowbar that bypasses DR or something like that. It's on a chronicle sheet, but I forget the name of the scenario, it's like "Golem"...something-or-other.

Man, I wish I could be more help >.>

[grandpoobah]

Brigg wrote:

grandpoobah wrote:

.You may not be able to purchase an improvised weapon made of special material in PFS (as the rules do not cover it). Even if you can, the item may not be able to perform as a weapon (it may not beat DR). You cannot take feats that apply to weapons (like weapon focus).

The only thing that possibly contradicts this is the "Trusty Buddy". it's a masterwork adamantine crowbar that bypasses DR or something like that. It's on a chronicle sheet, but I forget the name of the scenario, it's like "Golem"...something-or-other.

Man, I wish I could be more help >.>

That item (and one other) do exists as boons on chronicle sheets. Those items EXPLICITLY call out what they do and what they cost, which to me says that you cannot get them normally. If I could buy X normally, why would they need to put it on a chronicle boon?

adamantine:

“Trusty Buddy” (adamantine crowbar; 3,002 gp, limit 1; +4 circumstance bonus
on Strength checks to open doors and chests, bypasses DR when used as
improvised weapon)

Also

good:

This brass orb is a bit larger than a human fist. It’s covered with symbols of goodness and law and thick studs. If used as an improvised weapon, it deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage and serves as a good weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Again, it's really hard to make an improvised weapon build in CORE. I have a monk of the empty hand that is very uniquely built for what he does (and he's still not as good as a monk that would just punch things). He has both those items from GM credits (so I confess to boon farming for him), and he's barely as effective as most other melee PCs. He is however, a lot of fun to play. So I really feel bad for the OP. I love smacking people with ladders and brooms. But I should really be using holy amulet of mighty fists or a +1 adamantine temple sword...

[grandpoobah]

David Montgomery wrote:

No one's pointed out Refine Improvised Weapon yet? It's pretty much what the spell's made for.

Quote:

Refine Improvised Weapon

School transmutation; Level cleric 1, inquisitor 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, DF

Range touch

Target one improvised weapon

Duration 1 hour/level (D)

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

You transform an improvised weapon into an equivalent simple or martial weapon of masterwork quality. This effect does not alter the weapon's shape or appearance in any way. For example, if this spell is cast on a chair leg, a butter knife, or a pitchfork, the items function as a masterwork club, a masterwork dagger, or a masterwork trident, respectively, but the items look no different than they did before the spell was cast.

I've got an inquisitor bonking things over the head with a waffle iron.

The problem with that spell (and most other things like it) is it effectively turns an improvised weapon INTO a weapon. Which means any ability that keys off of improvised weapons (such as the Surprise weapon trait or the monk of the empty hand flurry of blows) would stop working, essentially making the change moot.

Now if your only goal is to fight with a specific item, then that spell does help you turn your frying pan into a "weapon", which you could then cast magic weapon on or use divine bond. So you get to say you're bonking people with a frying pan, while mechanically you're able to beat DR and deal level appropriate damage.

Unfortunately, the OP was looking for a CORE solution....

[meepothegreat]

You can not wield a large shovel as a weapon, assuming we treat the shovel as a two handed weapon. The only reason the iconic barbarian can use the large bastard sword is because she has the weapon proficiency for bastard sword, which allows her to use it one handed. Since she can then use a two handed weapon of her size in this way, she can use a large one with two hands.

[theshoveller]

I wish I had something to contribute to this thread.