Basically as the title asks. I've got a character that is at +3 will on lv. 6. Would it be worth it to make room for Iron Will or would it be better just to find a trait that gives +1 to will (that fits his backstory)?
For that matter, are any of the save feats truly worth it? I feel like they can be, but when magical items and such are available, I don't know if they're worth it.
on a fighter or fighter esque class(low will save) with some bonus feats. yes.
Very often a failed Will save will be a encounter you ditent get to be part of.
If iron Will is worth it depends on the frequency of Will saves in Your GMs campaign. I went to level 11 and only rolled 3 Will saves in one game. I ditent Pick it up there.
They are worth it. They usually represent a +10% chance of success. Iron Will, followed by Great Fortitude are the most popular.
Very often a failed Will save will be a encounter you ditent get to be part of.
If iron Will is worth it depends on the frequency of Will saves in Your GMs campaign. I went to level 11 and only rolled 3 Will saves in one game. I ditent Pick it up there.
Since ditent is latin, I imagine you meant didn't.
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Pretty sure he ditent.
Since ditent is latin, I imagine you meant didn't.Very often a failed Will save will be a encounter you ditent get to be part of.
If iron Will is worth it depends on the frequency of Will saves in Your GMs campaign. I went to level 11 and only rolled 3 Will saves in one game. I ditent Pick it up there.
You seem to have a good imagination;)
And yes.
Pretty sure he ditent.
bah dum ching!!!
The feat is worth it. And the trait is worth it. And a 12 WIS/8 CHA. And maybe going with a nice will boosting race (half orc with tattoo and fate's favored, or half elf with dual minded). Putting all that together, you can go from having a weak will save to beating out the caster cleric early on, and still doing better than an uninvested wizard later.
This all applies for fighters/rogues/rangers/ cavaliers/alchemist/ brawler/slayer/swashbuckler/ whatever, of course.
Interesting. thanks for the advice everyone. What would be considered a solid Will bonus at 6th level. Nothing outlandish, but solid? Right now my saves are Fort +6, Will +3 and Reflex +4. I'm playing a 3rd party class and their strong saves are actually Fort and Will, but I lowered Wis quite a bit to fit the character I wanted, using the other stats.
It's a custom campaign, so I have no clue on how much attacking on my Will my DM will throw our way.
The class has an ability to gain up to +2 insight to all of my saves (provided I can make certain DCs), but going for that means not getting a +2 to attack, which seems pretty crucial.
Thanks again!
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Interesting. thanks for the advice everyone. What would be considered a solid Will bonus at 6th level. Nothing outlandish, but solid? Right now my saves are Fort +6, Will +3 and Reflex +4. I'm playing a 3rd party class and their strong saves are actually Fort and Will, but I lowered Wis quite a bit to fit the character I wanted, using the other stats.
It's a custom campaign, so I have no clue on how much attacking on my Will my DM will throw our way.
The class has an ability to gain up to +2 insight to all of my saves (provided I can make certain DCs), but going for that means not getting a +2 to attack, which seems pretty crucial.
Thanks again!
According to the monster creation chart an easy (CR 6) monster's primary ability DC should be 16, a tough, CR 10 beastie will have a DC of around 19.
So at the moment you have a 50% chance to pass appropriate Fort saves, a 35% chance to pass appropriate Will saves, and a 40% chance on Ref saves.
Iron Will is actually the only one of the save feats that I ever think is worth while.
My general rule:
My worst save has to be, at a bare minimum, equal to half my level. And the will save should always be better than that. I try to get that up to my character level even if it is my worst save.
If I fail a reflex or fortitude save, my PC might die. But if my mondo melee DPR death machine fails a will, I just might kill several/all of my allies. That would fit very well into the bad things category.
Having said that, there are a lot of mitigating things possible. I have a character that build wise has pretty poor saves. But he has also prioritized his cloak of resistance rather than his weapons (usually 2 points higher than most PC's his level). Another PC bought a wand of pro from evil and gave it to another party member. "Use this on me anytime it seems like me failing a controlling will save is even a possibility. Don't worry about wasting charges. It's more than worth it so I don't kill you guys."
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
traits
max cloak of resistance
the ioun stone that gives pro evil
undead are immune to most of the mind controlling enchantments
fortune and/or hero point rerolls for failed will saves
rind of mind shielding
etc...
Interesting. thanks for the advice everyone. What would be considered a solid Will bonus at 6th level. Nothing outlandish, but solid? Right now my saves are Fort +6, Will +3 and Reflex +4. I'm playing a 3rd party class and their strong saves are actually Fort and Will, but I lowered Wis quite a bit to fit the character I wanted, using the other stats.
It's a custom campaign, so I have no clue on how much attacking on my Will my DM will throw our way.
The class has an ability to gain up to +2 insight to all of my saves (provided I can make certain DCs), but going for that means not getting a +2 to attack, which seems pretty crucial.
Thanks again!
A good will save? Or a decent one?
Spell save DCs are 10 + spell level + ability modifier. Let's imagine you are facing an enemy of PC caster caliber.
Let's also assume it's a little against your favor and they are level 7, giving them 4th level spells. But let's not go to crazy and assume only a 20 in their casting stat. That would make the save DC 10+4+5 = 19
So a good save at this point would be to have a +9 (for a 50%) chance to save. I would consider since will is most martial classes weak save, that you should probably target having at least a +6/7.
And I agree strongly with ElterAgo. Failing a will save is potentially one of the worst things that can happen. A failed fort saves means your character might die. Annoying, but at sufficient level it's mostly just an inconvience. You can be raised, the negative levels can be dealt with. It's mostly a matter of your peers selling off your gear to facilitate your recovery from death. And time, that you as a player don't get to do anything.
Failing a will save means you may kill the rest of your party if they were unprepared for it. I had a arcane bloodrager that could have caused a TPK after he failed the save against confusion. I was next to the Hunter's animal companion and the wizard, and the room we had just entered was only like 15 x 15, and we were sort of straddled between the room and the hallway leading to it. When we entered I was hit with confusion and rolled a 1 to fail the save. (I know Iron Will can't do much about that, but this is just an example). On my turn I start swinging at allies. I manage to kill the animal companion in a single round. Because I have displacement and energy resistance active from my bloodline, things have a hard time dealing damage to me. On the next round I was going to rip the party wizard's face off. Thankfully, he cast an illusion spell of some sort (don't rememebr which) to make me think I was trapped in a slighlty smaller room. I again roll a 1 on the save when I interact with it, and am trapped in the room. If I hadn't failed the save against the wizard's illusion spell, things were about to go south quickly. And thankfully the hunter had prepared raise animal companion.
Very good to know everyone thank you. I shall look into upping my will save and finding ways to suppress possible control, especially since I'm going to actually be on the front line a fair amount of the time. My to-hit in melee would be, +8 to +11 if I focus specifically on abilities that buff my STR, and it could hit +13 if I buff and use that +2 for attacks.
That said, +8 to +10 or +11 seems decent enough to have a chance hitting (not counting power attack subtractions), that I think I can afford putting that +2 into my saves. Get the trait that pumps my Will by +1 (cleverly hidden) and my saves would be Fort +8, Will +6 and Reflex +6, more if I can manage to get an item to increase my Wisdom.
Thanks again everyone. This has been very enlightening for me.
A good rule of thumb is that it always pays to boost your weakest save.If your a Cleric you won't need it,but for any class that does not have a strong base will save or that does not require high wisdom to function well; it's almost required.
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I never buy a cloak of resistance for my characters, and I've never had any real problems.
Sometimes if I find a cloak of resistance as loot (in PFS, this is almost every encounter with humanoids), and my shoulder slot is still empty, I'll use that.
Utility with a different cloak (Cape of the Mountebank is a great example) is always more important, I say let the dice manage the saves. Just my opinion and experience.
if you are really worried about will saves get a cloak of resistance +2 for 4000 GP your feat is worth more than that. and they give you a 10% bonus to all saves.
Ah..but if you do both, it is a 20% bonus on will.
The thing with making up for a weak save (particularly in will, since a lot of characters can't afford decent wisdom since it only really contributes to will) is that you are not going for a single big solution necessarily. You build up from a lot of small solutions.
Now, admittedly, you can do well with just the cloak. It covers the saves....for now. It is perfectly acceptable to take the cloak and free feat now, and spend on iron will later once the gap in saves becomes more noticeable. I tend to go with heavy front loading (since I like my fighters to make the caster cleric jealous), but that is just personal preference as a 'might as well get it over with' kind of thing.