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I am playing with the idea of a dungeon where the mobs are not static, but instead travel through hazardous areas. The idea being that the BBEG communicates with his minions via Message, commanding them to go to specific rooms. He more or less is playing chess with the PCs, but also knows more or less where they are through constant scrying.
So, the PCs decide that they'd rather come back later. Instead of teleporting out—which would have just trapped them in a teleportation trap and forcing them to fight the entire dungeon at once—they decide to walk out. The BBEG realizes this, and sends all of his minions to the entrance to cut off the party. "Everyone to A1! Yes...yes...." The PCs find themselves in a battle that encompasses the entire dungeon's remaining mobs, and it is a showdown to see who will leave alive.
However, each encounter has its own movement speed and location. Some large or larger monsters have to take indirect routes, and so the PCs might be able to escape with just defeating the quick enemies. However, if they know they are being scryed on, they might use this as a ploy to lure the minions away.
Perhaps each room has a Spy Eye in it, and these potentially make up the total treasure of the dungeon if they are low enough in level. Spy Eyes come in sets of 5, 4 being deployed and 1 being used as the eye to see out of. These cost 7,500 gp to craft, which is also their sell value.
This thematic dungeon would be a villain who is using traps, releasing hazards and sending monsters to attack the party at just the right time. Perhaps the monsters avoid the party, then attack them when they are not expecting it.
Have you ever done anything like this? If so, how did it work out?
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This is either an awesome, memorable encounter or a TPK waiting to happen depending on how tactical the party is.
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I would not do this if the players were not expecting it - i.e they came prepared mentally as well as equipment. If they are used to a 15 minute adventure day, and the GM throws this, they may cry foul. If they are hardcore dungeon crawlers, then by all means, this sounds fun.
As a player, I'd be upset if this was thrown in the middle of a Pathfinder AP, though, esp. without warning.
As a GM, you need to keep in mind what each of the minions knows/their standing/most recent orders/and their intelligence, and what the BBEG knows. It can be hard to keep from metagaming the monsters when the pcs are going through tactics in front of you and you have to help facilitate them.
So what happens to this dungeon when your PCs wise up and cast Nondetection, Mind Blank, or pass their Will save?
Rather than Scrying specifically, I wouldcome up with something more along the lies of an Arcane Eye that lasts longer and lets you see in multiple places at once.
Adds a more interesting facet to the dungeon as well. Instead of being a flat "Welp, one member of the party failed their Will save, he knows where you are now forever", it' a lot like dodging security cameras.
There's more player agency involved, they need to locate the eyes and avoid being seen (destroying them still gives away their position), so it becomes a tense scene involving stealth and quickness rather than something that simply happens to them.
Edit: Or is that what you were going with? The Spy Eye thing was a bit unclear (and I actually missed it the first time).
I agree how about a dungeon with a bunch of arcane eyes.... Maybe they use it as a training ground for monsters or entertainment or a place to wager who will win.... When they complete it they run into the big boss who thanks them for the entertainment and let's them go with a gift.
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Perhaps you meant the Sending spell (level 3)? Because Message (level 0) is far more limited in terms of range.
That said, the idea of a "cat and mouse" dungeon is a fine idea. However, I'd build it a bit differently. Rather than using standard Scrying, I'd limit the BBEG's abilities a bit. By giving him some limits, I give the PCs some more tactical options.
For example, let's say the BBEG can only view the PCs through gems stuck into the ceiling here or there in the dungeon, which have a specific field of vision (like security cameras). Also, he's got some small flying monsters that can spy for him, patrolling the dungeon.
PCs can spot those things, and try to either pass around them without being seen, or to perhaps set up diversions, give false impressions (walk left in front of the camera, then when outside of view, turn right), to try to throw off the BBEG.
The BBEG also doesn't have unlimited fast communication; any orders he sends have a slight delay, before response teams can get somewhere. So the PCs can actually surprise guards if they work at it.
I would not do this if the players were not expecting it - i.e they came prepared mentally as well as equipment. If they are used to a 15 minute adventure day, and the GM throws this, they may cry foul. If they are hardcore dungeon crawlers, then by all means, this sounds fun.
As a player, I'd be upset if this was thrown in the middle of a Pathfinder AP, though, esp. without warning.
Yes, I'd probably categorize this under "Ideas only a GM could love", although there are probably some players who would be into it.
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^^^^^ This, Oh yes this. I dont know how many times I have read in a module or PFS scenario where we are told that the party is expected and prepared for cause the BBEG has been watching them through scrying spells, yet none seems to take into account that there is almost always a PC that can sense the the watching. Whether they understand it or can do anything is another matter.
Potential hurdles with the plan (not to throw too much of a wet blanket on the idea I hope):
Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. The sensor, however, is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus functions normally even if you have been blinded or deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked.
This section isn't about the Scrying spell per se but about any spell of the subschool of Divination scrying. So any perceptive PCs are going to have a chance of noticing any such sensor which at minimum alerts them to being spied upon and that perception DC is not particularly hard to make by anyone with a reasonable amount of skill especially if given multiple opportunities by repeated scrying . Of course what they do in response is in their court. Their best response is Nondetection and/or Detect Scrying. If they have access to teleportion magic (to leave the dungeon) then they can gain access to either of these spells as well if they don't already have such access. You might end up with smart PCs suddenly in your BBEG's face just after he sends all his minions to 'block them at the front door' which could be very bad for your boss if he isn't prepared for such.
More thoughts later but must get off to work.
Imo, this + mind blank have rendered divination nearly worthless.
Also, it's a DC 25 + distance/obstructions mods perception check to hear a message spell intended for someone else.
Just something to keep in mind.
This is either an awesome, memorable encounter or a TPK waiting to happen depending on how tactical the party is.
This. I probably wouldn't do this unless the party is doing something similar. Usually players aren't that mindful of tactics like that and would fall prey to it like crazy. Also there's the issue that many forms of spying, detection and preparation like that are magical as well as means to avoid it, so getting clever with it makes it a caster vs caster game with martials as disposable pawns so I'm more likely to prevent it
How does this change if, say, the dungeon is the "corpse" of a nearly-extinguished god and the minions are a sort of immune system?
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dotting for later pain to my group.
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I have a dungeon just like this, but way more evil.
The reward is one major artefact for each player.
the entire dungeon is magic, filled with horrid beasts of the highest CR possible. The rooms change and shift and there is constant scrying.
For example, say your party is a fighter, a wizard, a cleric and a rogue.
wizard does some magical hjinks to get past a difficult room, the next thing they know, the next room prevents all arcane spells from being cast.
eventually, the party WILL have to split up and one of them most likely will die.
Free ressurections from the dungeon are handed out, but only when it feels like it (when the player gets irritated, annoyed or bored)
The entire thing is more or less: How much torture can one inflict on some players before they quit?
Yes, the monsters have mythic ranks, the PCs do not.
Rare monsters have them.
Just have whomever hired the party to retrieve the dingus from the dungeon say, "I'd like to be able to scry on you so that I can keep track of your progress. I understand that's an inconvenience, so I'm will to pay you extra (insert gp amount here) to compensate you for the invasion of privacy."
Even if the party detects the sensor, they'll not think anything of it because they're expecting it. And if the BBEG and the party's benefactor never happen to be scrying at the same time so that there's two sensors to be detected, well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
*rubs hands and cackles maniacally*
BTW, Mind Blank is an 8th level spell, that's pretty far beyond the arcane eye or prying eyes that the OP seems to be talking about.
I recommend watching The Raid Redemption for inspiration on this kind of dungeon. It's got PF-like levels of violence. (The sequel is even better.)
You only need one person in the party to fail.... unless they split up of course. But that solution has it's own problems.So what happens to this dungeon when your PCs wise up and cast Nondetection, Mind Blank, or pass their Will save?
Given scrying's hourlong casting time, by the time you finish casting it two or three times to get someone to fail, the party is probably done adventuring for the day.