I understand that Exotic Weapon Proficiency is meant to allow typically western characters to wield eastern weapons or even allow common folks to wield uncommon/rare kinds of weapons.
However, what if you yourself are 'exotic'? For example, let's say that the setting is North American or European based, but one character comes from a far off land based of Japan. Would he still have to burn a feat to wield a Katana, or would he just have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) as a bonus feat? Or would it be a Martial Weapon for him? In a similar vein, would a Lochaber Axe be an Exotic Weapon for him?
You could talk to your GM about that, however keep in mind that would be a total House Ruling.
I think that was the point of the alternate classes: ninja and samurai. So you could play a Rogue or Cavalier from such a culture. As far as I know, they never made alternates for any other classes. I think that a collection of those might make a good future product.
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This is a reasonable approach. I would be open to changing around weapon lists to match cultural origin.
Honestly, I wish they'd not use Exotic weapons as a cultural divider, in addition to a mechanical divider. Spending a feat to use a superior or specially designed weapon is okay. You shouldn't have to spend a feat to use a weapon that's similar to the ones you know how to use, but from a foreign country.
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Honestly, I wish they'd not use Exotic weapons as a cultural divider, in addition to a mechanical divider. Spending a feat to use a superior or specially designed weapon is okay. You shouldn't have to spend a feat to use a weapon that's similar to the ones you know how to use, but from a foreign country.
Case in point: Tetsubo. Say hello to this large wooden stick with metal in it, that apparently requires a significant investment of your time to learn how to use properly.
This is a reasonable approach. I would be open to changing around weapon lists to match cultural origin.
Honestly, I wish they'd not use Exotic weapons as a cultural divider, in addition to a mechanical divider. Spending a feat to use a superior or specially designed weapon is okay. You shouldn't have to spend a feat to use a weapon that's similar to the ones you know how to use, but from a foreign country.
I agree with this honestly. Rules wise there is no method to do this, but I'd personally be willing to homerule what weapons you know how to use based on the culture of where you are from. For example, you'd have no idea how to use a Longsword if you can use a Katana, or most of the weapons on the normal martial list.
Still, it matters WHERE you grow up but it also matters HOW you grow up. In Japan peasants were not allowed to have any bladed weapons on them longer than a knife. Swords were a status symbol. So if you told me your character was a lowly rice farmer from an eastern style area, I'd tell you that you still had no idea how to use a Katana.
However, classes in Pathfinder indicate training. Which is why the only class that is naturally proficient with the Katana is the Samurai.
Now I'd house rule Fighters or other martial classes into being able to use those weapons if they were from that area (since not every warrior in an eastern culture is naturally a Samurai but they might use the same weapons).
Anyway, the point is that it is entirely GM fiat and the only way to gain Katana proficient is to spend resources to obtain like a level into Samurai, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or etc.
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They don't use exotic weapons as a cultural divider. A Katana is an exotic weapon for a fighter in Tien Xia, just as a Falcata or Bastard Sword is an exotic weapon for a fighter in Taldor. Likewise, a nodachi is a martial weapon for a western character, just as a greatsword is martial for an eastern one.
Some classes may gain proficiency in exotic weapons as a class feature, and some races may treat some exotic weapons as martial due to racial familiarity, but an exotic weapon is exotic regardless of where you come from, as is a martial weapon.
Well, there is some argument that a ton of exotic weapons are mechanically complicated, and would need special training, no matter the culture. Things like flying blades or garrotes.
Most of the weapons seem to be fairly straight forwards, and many have crosscultural couterparts (jian for longswords; glaives; everyone has daggers, etc). Ignoring a few exceptions (the ton of polearms, which are rather european in nature, due to the improved ironworking technology allowing for experimentation), there are usually not too many
And even katana can be wielded with the same ease as longswords. They can be used as 2 handed martial weapons. Given that they rely so much on strength, that would be the usual use. As far as I know, most katana made prior to the long period of peace (where people could wear crappy swords for show and cutting down commoners) would be 2 handed.
Even the most famous user of japanese TWF, Miyamoto Mushashi, used 2 handed most of his career, and he came up with the TWF afterwards. Wielding katana 1 handed is a trick that is hardly in line with their intended usage.
Well, the character I have in mind would probably be a Ninja/Ranger using either a Greatsword or a Nodachi (just now realized it's not exotic) since Zanbato isn't an option.
I also thought that the Tetsubo was a stupid translation. If you compare the silhouette of the Tetsubo and a greatclub, they're practically identical. Additionally they are used in the same manner. I personally just nix the Tetsubo on the gear list and have it be a 'retexture' of the greatclub.
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Now I'd house rule Fighters or other martial classes into being able to use those weapons if they were from that area (since not every warrior in an eastern culture is naturally a Samurai but they might use the same weapons).
I think it would be appropriate to allow players to select weapon familiarity with a small selection of exotic weapons appropriate to their character's culture (treating them as martial weapons). This could be a freebie or it could count as a combat or culture trait if you use traits.
I just like the thought of a Barbarian two handing a Katana.
I mean we tried to teach him to be a Samurai and about honor and stuff...but he just likes getting mad and hitting things!
I also thought that the Tetsubo was a stupid translation. If you compare the silhouette of the Tetsubo and a greatclub, they're practically identical. Additionally they are used in the same manner. I personally just nix the Tetsubo on the gear list and have it be a 'retexture' of the greatclub.
I honestly never got why we needed katana as a separate thing. Why couldn't scimitars stand in for all 1 hand-able curved swords?
Not hating on katana, just using it as one of the more obvious examples of bloat with the weapons tables. I am in favor of just getting a few good general categories (1handed axe, 2 handed axe, 1 handed straight sword, 2 handed straight sword, etc). that represent a much wider variety of weapons.
I also thought that the Tetsubo was a stupid translation. If you compare the silhouette of the Tetsubo and a greatclub, they're practically identical. Additionally they are used in the same manner. I personally just nix the Tetsubo on the gear list and have it be a 'retexture' of the greatclub.I honestly never got why we needed katana as a separate thing. Why couldn't scimitars stand in for all 1 hand-able curved swords?
Not hating on katana, just using it as one of the more obvious examples of bloat with the weapons tables. I am in favor of just getting a few good general categories (1handed axe, 2 handed axe, 1 handed straight sword, 2 handed straight sword, etc). that represent a much wider variety of weapons.
That's actually what I liked about Exalted. They had the basic weapon types and you just designed the flavor/description. Some of my favorite weapons were designed because I had the agency to get invested in my character's gear design.
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I understand that Exotic Weapon Proficiency is meant to allow typically western characters to wield eastern weapons or even allow common folks to wield uncommon/rare kinds of weapons.
However, what if you yourself are 'exotic'? For example, let's say that the setting is North American or European based, but one character comes from a far off land based of Japan. Would he still have to burn a feat to wield a Katana, or would he just have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana) as a bonus feat? Or would it be a Martial Weapon for him? In a similar vein, would a Lochaber Axe be an Exotic Weapon for him?
It's not Eastern at all - it's more "atypical."
Katana, despite what you'd be led to believe from Anime and Japanese movies, are actually pretty hard to use properly unless you know what you're doing.
Katanas and their Nihonto cousins (Wakizashi, Kodachi - a shorter mainhand weapon between a Wakizashi and a Katana - and Oodachi/Nodachi) all require a cleaving, pulling motion to use properly for slicing (the Wakizashi is more for piercing, but still has a sharp edge)
Simply hacking directly with these weapons don't yield very good results. Unlike European broadswords, they don't have the weight needed to cut and crush properly.
Tsurugi - the more-ancient double-edged straightblade swords of Japan are more like Longswords.
They're more like the Chinese Jian, or the Korean Hwandudaedo - they can be used in a slicing motion, but are best when using a thrusting motion.
In short, picking up and swinging a Longsword (or any of its Eastern counterparts) while familiar with most other forms of swords (which are generally straight-bladed) will actually be fairly effective.
A Katana, on the other hand, can't just be picked up, swung, and still yield good results, even if you're familiar with other curved blades - you need the proper form, which, while it isn't hard to learn, still requires some practice to use, and isn't typical in the least.
The Samurai and Ninja are Proficient with them simply because these classes actually require familiarity with these weapons (well, technically MAYBE not Ninja, as Shinobi are sometimes attested to have used a straight-single-bladed weapon, the Ninjato, from which the term Ninja supposedly derives, but this could be a modern construct and not historical truth).
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It's why the Bastard Sword is also an Exotic Weapon. Bastard Swords have a very odd balance to them that allow them to be wielded either one or two-handed (even in real life), but you have to be familiar with them and how to use them properly; otherwise, they'll seem like they're a pure two-hander like the Zweihander or Claymore, only shorter.
There's a lot of definite problems with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but some of them are especially mind-boggling. Consider the (Aldori) Dueling Sword, which requires EWP + Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace to use as a Swashbuckler... the exact same feats which would allow you to use a Katana or Bastard Sword, both of which are mechanically better in every way than a Dueling Sword. Indeed, for a Swashbuckler, a Dueling Sword functions exactly the same as a Longsword, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat tax. Therefore the only reason to go with the Dueling Sword is because of feats made specifically for the Dueling Sword... for which EWP is once again an unnecessary feat tax.
The class really needs an archetype like Whirling Dervish for players interested in playing a Swashbuckler style Aldori Swordlord, because right now, even humans can't apply Dex to hit with a dueling sword until level 3, which is the soonest they can purchase Slashing Grace. (Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse, but isn't the same and doesn't allow a Dueling Sword to gain Dex to damage without Slashing Grace, invalidating the one special ability Dueling Swords have when it comes to Swashbucklers.)
I thought there was a trait which gave you Proficiency with a Dueling Sword automatically.
A Dueling Sword naturally allows you to use it as though it were a Longsword. At level 1, as a Human, you get it online with Slashing Grace because of the reciprocal nature of Swashbuckler's Finesse and Slashing Grace (and you count as having Weapon Finesse, so you take SG at lv1).
Race Weapon Focus - Dueling Sword
CL1 Slashing Grace
Sws1 Weapon Finesse
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The Dueling Sword definitely feels like a weapon that you should be able to get with a trait or some kind of weapon familiarity, given that it thematically makes sense for it to require special training, but it's not a mechanically good enough weapon to be worth the feat.
I just like the thought of a Barbarian two handing a Katana.
I mean we tried to teach him to be a Samurai and about honor and stuff...but he just likes getting mad and hitting things!
That's a pretty cool character idea.
'course, I'm currently playing a LG bloodrager/monk with a naginata (martial eastern weapon). She doesn't like getting mad and hitting things, but some people give her no choice.
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I thought there was a Trait which gave you Dueling Sword Proficiency for free, though.
Never mind - looked it up; you just start play with a Dueling Sword with Sword Scion
Though Heirloom Weapon allows you to have Proficiency with it.
So a Human with a Dueling Sword Heirloom Weapon can have Slashing Grace at lv1.
Actually, no. Heirloom Weapon only applies to simple or martial weapons, not exotic weapons. You might be thinking of the pre-errata version of the trait, which was allowed to apply to exotic weapons.
There's a lot of definite problems with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but some of them are especially mind-boggling. Consider the (Aldori) Dueling Sword, which requires EWP + Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace to use as a Swashbuckler... the exact same feats which would allow you to use a Katana or Bastard Sword, both of which are mechanically better in every way than a Dueling Sword. Indeed, for a Swashbuckler, a Dueling Sword functions exactly the same as a Longsword, but requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat tax. Therefore the only reason to go with the Dueling Sword is because of feats made specifically for the Dueling Sword... for which EWP is once again an unnecessary feat tax.
The class really needs an archetype like Whirling Dervish for players interested in playing a Swashbuckler style Aldori Swordlord, because right now, even humans can't apply Dex to hit with a dueling sword until level 3, which is the soonest they can purchase Slashing Grace. (Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse, but isn't the same and doesn't allow a Dueling Sword to gain Dex to damage without Slashing Grace, invalidating the one special ability Dueling Swords have when it comes to Swashbucklers.)
Eh, dueling swords aren't really good for swashbuckler slashing grace.
They are for nonswashbuckler slashing grace. Because they can be finessed without the special rules added by swashbuckler (which is needed for most other 1 handed weapons, since you could not get dex to hit otherwise).
So giving you access to that is (somewhat) worth EWP for a fighter.
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Eh, dueling swords aren't really good for swashbuckler slashing grace.
They are for nonswashbuckler slashing grace. Because they can be finessed without the special rules added by swashbuckler (which is needed for most other 1 handed weapons, since you could not get dex to hit otherwise).
So giving you access to that is (somewhat) worth EWP for a fighter.
That's kinda my point. Advanced Class Origins specifically singles out Brevoy as a source of swashbucklers in the Inner Sea region and recommends taking Slashing Grace so you can be a Swashbuckler with a Dueling Sword, but you're far better off using a Katana or Bastard Sword for the feats you would have to invest, hence why there needs to be an archetype similar to Whirling Dervish if they want players to actually use Swashbuckler to play as Aldori Swordlords. (And honestly, they should. It's a Dex-based fighter class, which is exactly what the Swordlords are.)
Even the Swordlord Fighter archetype doesn't get free proficiency with it... :/
Yeah, but at least with the Swordlord Fighter archetype, you're burning a feat on Weapon Finesse at level 1 (likely your bonus Fighter feat) and actually get to apply Dex to hit. Far better than not getting to apply Dex to hit until level 3. Also, you get Slashing Grace at level 2, which means the build is 'fully online' a full level earlier compared to the Swashbuckler.
I just find it baffling that you don't get free proficiency with the weapon your archetype specifically is built to make you good at using.
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That would make far too much sense. You're clearly supposed to be using your bonus combat feat and starting feat to take Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dueling sword), and all the class features are based on the Dueling Sword, so the sensible thing to do would be to take away the Bonus Weapon Proficiency and give the two feats you were going to take anyway, also taking away shield proficiencies the character won't need. There's plenty of other archetypes that do exactly that. (Dragoon replaces the level 1 bonus feat with Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (ride), Unbreakable replaces it with Diehard and Endurance.)
As someone that has picked up and swung a Tetsubo it is an entirely different beast then just swinging a big piece of wood around. (And for that matter the boat oar. Which is fun to use in katas.)
That would make far too much sense. You're clearly supposed to be using your bonus combat feat and starting feat to take Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dueling sword), and all the class features are based on the Dueling Sword, so the sensible thing to do would be to take away the Bonus Weapon Proficiency and give the two feats you were going to take anyway, also taking away shield proficiencies the character won't need. There's plenty of other archetypes that do exactly that. (Dragoon replaces the level 1 bonus feat with Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (ride), Unbreakable replaces it with Diehard and Endurance.)
I think you're just complaining to complain, without actually reading anything.
A Dueling Sword is both a Martial and an Exotic Weapon. It is a One Handed Slashing Weapon.
It's a Martial Weapon by default and acts like a Longsword, the same way a Bastard Sword is a Martial Two-Handed Weapon.
If you have EWP you have the option of using it with Weapon Finesse, but EWP is not required to use an Aldori Dueling Sword.
Swashbuckler's Finesse gives you Weapon Finesse with all One-Handed Piercing Weapons
Slashing Grace allows you to use One-Handed Slashing Weapons as One Handed Piercing Weapons and deals damage based on your Dex, rather than Str.
Swashbucklers give you proficiency with all Martial Weapons, INCLUDING THE DUELING SWORD.
1) As a Human, you take Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword) since you are proficient with it as a Martial weapon
2) As a Swashbuckler, you are granted Weapon Finesse
3) As a Level 1 Character, you take Slashing Grace as you meet all the prerequisites for it.
4) A Dueling Sword now counts as a One-Handed Piercing Weapon because of Slashing Grace
5) Because Slashing Grace makes the Dueling Sword into a One-Handed Piercing Piercing, it is now a Finesse weapon thanks to Swashbuckler's Finesse.
Look at that! Level 1, Dex to Hit and Damage, and you didn't need to take Exotic Weapons Proficiency at all!
IT'S LIKE THEY PLANNED IT TO WORK THAT WAY!!!
That's like arguing that you have proficiency with the Bastard Sword because it can be used two-handed as a martial weapon. You don't gain proficiency with the Dueling Sword automatically as a Swashbuckler, you gain proficiency with the Longsword, and can use the Dueling Sword as if it were a Longsword without benefiting from Weapon Finesse.
Notice that the Swashbuckler says "proficient with all MARTIAL"
An Aldori Dueling Sword can be used "as a Martial Weapon," and "functions as a Longsword" when used as such.
So, either your DM says "okay, so you have Martial Proficiency (Dueling Sword)" which makes sense, or your DM goes strictly by RAW and the Dueling Sword functions "as a Longsword," thus accessing all feats which affect s a Longsword, including Weapon Focus (Longsword).
Whether you take WF (Longsword) or WF (Dueling Sword) is really a non-issue here.
It doesn't change anything that you can, at level 1, get Dex to Attack and Damage with an Aldori Dueling Sword, without ever HAVING to take EWP.
Because that's exactly what the Swashbuckler + Slashing Grace does - lets you use one-handed slashing weapons like Finesse weapons and deal Dex for damage.
So your complaining that you can't do it before level 3 is just absolutely false - you most certainly can buy an Aldori Dueling Sword and use it from level 1 to level 20, substituting Dex for Str the whole way, without ONCE having to take an extraneous feat (unless you count WF as a "tax," but a +1 to attack is still good regardless, and as a Swashbuckler, you gain full access to the Weapon Focus/Specialization Tree, so it's really more icing on the cake than anything).
No, CHB is right here.
A dueling sword is 1lb less than a Longsword for 5 more gold, but is otherwise identical when used as a Longsword. Because of that, you can grab Weapon Focus with it (I think you take weapon proficiency Longsword, as you lack proficiency with a Duelign Sword), and then you take Slashing Grace since you have Weapon Finesse for free with light and one handed piercing weapons and for qualifying with feats.
Since you are using a Dueling Sword as a Longsword (as a martial weapon), and have Weapon Focus Longsword, you can take Slashing Grace with the Dueling Sword.
This makes the Dueling Sword a one-handed Piercing weapon, which means that it qualifies for the Swashbuckler's finesse class feature.
Just like how any other weapon works.
Admittedly, you do not get the bonuses of using the Dueling sword like a dueling sword (since you lack proficiency with it you cannot take the Dueling Master Feat...so no benefits compared to a long sword other than it being 1 pound lighter), but it is style points.
Everyone loves style points.