RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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even if that generalization is 100% accurate
at 9th level you are pretty much 75% of the way through the professional life of your PFS character
unless you mean full progression caster
in which case
good luck surviving at low level
Yes, "9th-level caster" generally means full-progression caster.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My ifrit sorcerer only died due to the module specifically having creatures attack the back line, and because he could not save against the Con poison, which left his HP low enough that one good spellstrike shocking grasp took him to his reduced Con score.
If that was CON damage rather than CON drain, you might not actually have been dead...
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Clerics, Druids and Oracles are all fine at low level.
For sure, druids are very survivable at low levels... especially if they take the Giant Fluffy Meatshield option as opposed to a domain. Luckily, with retraining you can have your cake (i.e. an adorable bear) and trade him for unlimited magical power later on when you can summon an army of bears at will!
Man this game is awesome.
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Yeah. Maybe +15 at 1st or second level might be a bit over the top. But hardly crazy even early on. But by 10th level, a character with Charisma as a tertiary stat and otherwise a minor investment, could easily go over 20 without trying hard.
After two 'dump-CHA' characters, my third was built for diplomacy. An Aasimar Bard. I think my build turned out like this (so far):
1st: Diplomacy +12
2nd: Diplomacy +13
3rd: Diplomacy +14
4th: Diplomacy +16
5th: Diplomacy +19
6th: Diplomacy +22
7th: Diplomacy +23
With a GM reroll, temp bonuses and Archeologist Luck I'm at +30.
But .... I couldn't shoot my crossbow worth crap till about 5th level.
Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Greenville
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I've been drafting responses to this thread that cover the whole "balance" concept, but they are turning into elaborate essays.
So here are a few [edit: a lot of] responses:
Your stated goal for this thread doesn't make sense.
Consider this: you're at a table as a player (not the GM), and you encounter a monster you know nothing about. Maybe it's unique to the scenario, or is a familiar monster but with unknown class levels added, or maybe it's from a new Bestiary and you just haven't seen it yet.
In any case, it starts doing its thing, and its thing is unusual, and it's wrecking you. Do you just keep doing what you normally do without adjusting your own tactics, just because you haven't read the statblock or had someone explain it to you before? Or are you able to adapt just based on what you see happening?
1) No. 2) You adapt to the best of your abilities.
Now, I believe you that your intent is not malicious.
Thank you!
However, if I'm correct in my guess of your answers to the above questions, then that means you're looking to approach adapting to strong PCs differently than you would approach adapting to strong monsters/NPCs. So even though you don't mean to do anything inappropriate, the clear difference there suggests that perhaps you're not approaching those PC builds and their weaknesses as fairly as you're trying to.
I see what you mean. You believe it inappropriate to use the GM's rules knowledge (specific to a build) to combat powerful PCs. Or perhaps more precisely, to use it excessively?
Well, I feel that there is an appropriate use of that knowledge suitable to the nature of the NPCs. Let’s postulate two NPCs, each of whom has an ability to significantly exploit a weakness of a powerful PC. But one is essentially mindless, while the other is an Aspis Consortium assassin. I would possibly randomize the mindless creature’s actions--but the Aspis Consortium assassin would of course target the weakness directly, assuming that it could reasonably know about the weakness.
Ultimately I hear you that my own emotions such as vindictiveness could come into play. So what I say above assumes a certain objectivity.
Many powerful PCs render this discussion moot since they have no significant weakness or will wipe out enemies before they have a chance to act on any knowledge gained.
You don't need to know all the powerful builds out there to do that. Once an enemy identifies the largest threat facing them, they should work to eliminate or mitigate that threat.
See above, but again if I am roleplaying a very competent NPC, it helps to have the metagame knowledge necessary to provide a challenge.
Some players who build powerful characters do so because they don't want to be challenged.
Absolutely true--and I believe that’s an inappropriate approach to the game. Possibly more on that later.
because I've seen some "Tier 1-2" that gave the enemy far worse cheese than anything a player could ever hope to muster…
Do you have any examples? I don’t deny that an enemy could have powerful abilities, but more than a player can apply?
when skill, research, intelligence and experience are punished
The qualities you cite are only good if applied to an appropriate goal. There are numerous real-world examples of people using the qualities above for the wrong goals. (As I already mentioned, I feel that seeking to eliminate all challenge from the game is an inappropriate goal.)
I'm going to assume the intent of the thread is to delineate powerful builds that might be doing something that would catch an GM off-guard...
I hadn’t quite thought of that clearly at the beginning, but that is a good aspect of it. Up until recently I’ve been caught off-guard by level 1 two-handed-weapon Power-Attackers, which I don’t even consider to be an inherently powerful build.
I've only found diplomacy a problem at +40 where you can consistently get 50 to make hostile helpful easily.
This was partially addressed later on (in that you can only make 2 shifts), but here’s a line from the CRB:
Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
So players cannot use high Diplomacy rolls to avoid combats that the scenario makes clear are unavoidable.
That's also why I actively search out for adventures which are difficult and I run these extremely powerful characters in games like waking rune, bonekeep, feast of sigils, and words of the ancients.
I have no problem with powerful PCs in such scenarios, particularly Bonekeep. But most scenarios are easily overwhelmed by the type of PCs I’m talking about.
I totally agree with having enemies make in-the-moment decisions based on the texture of the current situation. However, it does make sense to establish what exactly the good strategies are so that enemies can act appropriately. It adds a sense of verisimilitude and gives you better tools to challenge a party looking for a challenge.
This succinctly expresses what I was trying to say to Jiggy above. Thanks!
I've resolved to start GMing low level scenarios and asking players to not bring characters to my table that could easily be viewed as powerful versus effective. This is a bit crude, but is a last ditch effort to keep GMing and playing the PFS scenarios that I love.
I agree that this doesn’t feel desirable, but it may be the only solution. This problem hasn’t particularly cropped up in my local games yet--our players are largely new to PFS and are mastering the basics. Note that I would ask them not to play the characters, but not outright disallow them to do so.
Anyone with a high Bluff or Diplomacy skill. It just feels like a cop-out when with just a few words you can end entire encounters.
See note on Diplomacy above--this shouldn’t happen with most combat encounters. Looking at the Bluff skill, it does indeed say you can tell an impossible lie with a -20 penalty, which powerful PCs can overcome. I believe the rules should state that this is not a magical effect and can’t make someone believe an impossible lie. In many cases it would not be effective as enemies determined to attack aren’t going to listen to the PCs.
a lot of these characters being offered up are good at one thing or just one facet of the game
which means, in pfs, that you will run into scenarios where you absolutely wreck shop, scenarios where you do okay, and scenarios where you are basically just nipples on a breastplate
'I saw this do good once' does not make a world-shattering build
Your statements are certainly true in many cases. But often the PCs’ weaknesses are very unlikely to be challenged by most encounters.
After two 'dump-CHA' characters, my third was built for diplomacy. An Aasimar Bard. I think my build turned out like this (so far):
1st: Diplomacy +12
2nd: Diplomacy +13
. . .
It seems very easy to build a skill-focused character that will zip through skill-based challenges such as social encounters, traps and so on. The DCs in the scenarios don’t match what PCs can put out there--which is a design issue, not a player issue, I understand.
- - -
So as you can see I don’t approve of the use of powerful--OK, overpowered--PCs.
I’m struggling to elaborate on why without it turning into the long essay I mentioned. I think I’ve said enough for now.
So let me know what you think [casts stoneskin]. ;-)
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Do you have any examples? I don’t deny that an enemy could have powerful abilities, but more than a player can apply?
21 AC, flying, DR Cold Iron, Regeneration shut down by fire, acid or silver, and negative energy channel. They also had two minions with sneak attack.
Another case had an enemy with a full attack at reach of four attacks that all hit for about 7HP each on an average roll, and with their attack modifiers, they were going to hit with all the attacks.
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(Start Off Topic):
It seems very easy to build a skill-focused character that will zip through skill-based challenges such as social encounters, traps and so on. The DCs in the scenarios don’t match what PCs can put out there--which is a design issue, not a player issue, I understand.After two 'dump-CHA' characters, my third was built for diplomacy. An Aasimar Bard. I think my build turned out like this (so far):
1st: Diplomacy +12
2nd: Diplomacy +13
. . .
It's not really a design issue. If they design the challenges to challenge the 2% of PCs that are built to overcome that challenge, then the adventure is overly difficult/impossible for 98% of the PCs (estimating 90% of tables). It's only really a design issue when most of the scenario is based around a few skills needed multiple times for success. Then the party is either walking through a good chuck of the adventure, or having no fun for hours on end as there is no way to realistically accomplish the mission. Try solving a mystery at a table when no one who has the right knowledge or social skills.
(OK Back On Topic)
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it's also not just the builds but actiom economy.
season 0-3 are meant for 4 players built like the pregens.
having 6 players go vs 1 bad guy doesn't really matter how powerful the pcs are. Toss in an animal companion amd/or eidelon with 5 or 6 players and it gets boring.
there are a couple tier 1-2 scenarios with a cr 4 bad guy that spells trouble but generally the scenarios are designed in a way to not be that challenging also with some lame tactics the bad guys are to use.
powerful builds-- mostly mentioned alreay as zen archers, summoners and gunslingers get insane witrh just using basic builds.
grapple, trip builds can really nerf a lot of scenarios.
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Try solving a mystery at a table when no one who has the right knowledge or social skills.
(OK Back On Topic)
Dominate person "Did you do it?"
"No. master...."
Drat, sure it was him. Dominate the other one
Did you do it?
"yes master..."
Good. Now write out a confession , dig a grave, put oregano on your head and smack the druids crocodile.
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Try solving a mystery at a table when no one who has the right knowledge or social skills.
(OK Back On Topic)
Dominate person "Did you do it?"
"No. master...."
Drat, sure it was him. Dominate the other one
Did you do it?
"yes master..."
Good. Now write out a confession , dig a grave, put oregano on your head and smack the druids crocodile.
Nah, works like this...
Dominate person "you did it"
"No. master...."
"Drat, that wasn't a question! "
modify memory
"you did it with the lead pipe in the Kitchen"
"yes master..."
"Good. Now write out a confession , dig a grave, put oregano on your head and smack the druids crocodile."
"yes master..."
Literally anything played by someone that likes to optimize characters. (This coming from someone who likes to optimize characters before I get flamed for this.)
This. So very much this.
Any player who has a good command of system mastery, which generally describes most folks who deliberately build power characters, will wreck shop with nearly any build.
At that point, it's the player, not the character.
-j
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It's all so clear to me now....
We're not Pathfinders or murder hobos. We're Jason Bourne-like Assassins. The Venture Captains just modify our memories and plant forged journals on our targets so we feel justified in killing them.
I know the secrets! I must tell everyone it's all a sham!
OPEN UP IN THERE!!!!
Ahhh, they're on to me!
Nah, works like this...
Dominate person "you did it"
"No. master...."
"Drat, that wasn't a question! "
modify memory
"you did it with the lead pipe in the Kitchen"
"yes master..."
"Good. Now write out a confession , dig a grave, put oregano on your head and smack the druids crocodile."
"yes master..."
They know too much! Send in the agents!
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* He has a magic item that can reduce his size from Small to Diminutive for 24 hours. With just a reduce person instead, his Size bonus is +8. With no magic, it is +4.
What magic item is that? I have a gnome investigator who would be interested in purchasing one for a reasonable price.
If it's from a chronicle, don't tell me. I'd rather not have the spoiler. If it's something available with enough fame and gold, though, I'd like to know. Because who doesn't want an investigator in their pocket? You can PM me if you don't want to post it here, though if it's generally available others may want to know.
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What magic item is that? I have a gnome investigator who would be interested in purchasing one for a reasonable price.Rod of wonder.
Ah... Not exactly the most reliable option. Though he is a gnome and it's not beyond what he might do. I suppose you could just keep using it until you roll that ability. The collateral damage in the meantime could be a problem, as could the 3% chance you have to make a save or die fort save.
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Is it me or do the encounters in question also contribute to the "anticlimactic" feeling someone above mentioned?
If a scenario encounter only has one enemy with low initiative and other disadvantages, especially if it's a "BBEG", then it's bound to be anticlimactic, even for the regular 2handed power attacking barbarian.
I found that as a GM, running scenarios for heavily optimized parties can be just as fun, as long as there's actual action, as opposed to (for example) slumber > dead > get xp > go home.
Maybe it's an idea for paizo to think about the length of encounters as well besides CR / danger in general?
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Thundercaller Bards
Bardic Performance/day - Scalable Sound Burst with (Su)-scaled DC. At 7th level, twice per round. Save or stun with un-reducable damage outside of Resist Sonic, Hardness, or Incorporeal.
I like Thundercaller Bards. In fact, I have an 8th level one in PFS. But it is highly subject to table variation as to whether or not you can start more that one bardic performance in a round due to the wording of the Core Rules. So I don't even try.
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Winter Witch using even a Ray of Frost can get ridiculous, since they have a spammable spell doing, initially, 1d3+1d4+1 or something like that, at first level.
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Point of order, Frozen Caress does not work on ranged touch attack spells . Only spells with "Range: Touch".
But yeah, Winter Witch+Frozen Caress+Elemental Focus+Slay Living/Poison/Touch Attack Make You Suck Spell=Pain.
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That is.... an interesting application of the Rod. I must ponder this further...
You'd also have to be happy with being permanently blue, green, or purple (And periodically alternating).
That's just a bonus. Size diminutive AND blue? If you're wearing sleeves of many garments, change your pants to look like a white pair of footed jammies and your hat to look like a white capo. Have a smurfy time.
You may also have problems finding a place to shoot random fireballs, lightning bolts, and other effects while trying to trigger your reduction.
Go outside and aim at the sky.
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I've done another pass on the list of Powerful Character options primarily pulled from this thread. Seriously folks, this doesn't necessarily reflect what I think is game-breaking, over-powered, or over-optimized. Many of my characters have one, or more, of these. The list is meant to consolidate these options and allow for discussion. My personal feeling is that this list might be an indicator of whether a character is treading the line into an over-optimized state. Whether a character actually is trivializing content and/or over-shadowing their companions is a completely different conversation.
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Examples of Powerful Character Options in PFS
• Characters with pounce.
• Characters with slumber hex.
• Characters with AC 35 or higher.
• Characters with several primary natural attacks.
• Characters with early entry into Mystic Theurge.
• Characters with +30 bonus, or better, on a skill check.
• Characters with +30 damage, or better, on weapon damage rolls.
• Characters with dazing magic missiles and similar metamagic.
• Characters with crossblooded sorcerer levels with orc/draconic bloodlines.
• Characters with traits that are as powerful, or more powerful, than similar feats.
• Characters optimized for critical hits.
• Characters optimized for save-or-lose spells.
• Characters optimized for animal companion, eidolon, or familiar.
• Characters optimized for bombs, firearms, and other ranged combat.
• Characters optimized for CMB with dirty trick, grapple, trip, and other combat maneuvers.
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Folks are aware that Dazing Spell allows a save to negate the daze effect even if the spell it is attached to does not allow a save, right?
Not saying Dazing Spell isn't amazing, just pointing that out in the event it was overlooked.
If I'm not mistaken, the concern for people is that it has been used to get easy access to dazing, especially when combined with lesser dazing metamagic rods. The save can be reasonably high and counters caster BBEGs very well in PFS. I've not encountered it in my PFS games though.
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It is also linked to the idea that dazing can be attached to spells which ignore SR and to spells which target any of the three saves. Being able to predict your opponents weak save can increase your chance of landing your spell by 50% or more which is pretty huge when the effect is "stand there for 3 rounds while my party wails on you".
A the mid to high levels the Staff of the Master also allows you to apply dazing to your highest level spells. I employed dazing chain lightning in eyes of the ten and it was brutal but you can easily get similar effects from around level 10. It can come on line even earlier if using an arcane bond.
Also as ever summoners break things with early access spells. Using a lesser rod on a level 3 wall of fire can end an entire encounter with ease. Just sit back and watch your enemies slowly burn to death while being literally unable to do anything.
Well aware of those points.
I was referring specifically to dazing magic missile. With that spell chosen as the carrier, it made me wonder if people were aware the target still got a save.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Given that neither of these options are mechanically stronger than simply being a straight 9 spell level caster I don't think this is really true. Losing a caster level for early entry MT is a big deal. Crossblooded is a horrible trap for actual sorcerers and a decent dip for wizard/druid/cleric/oracle blasters but you are still basically using the least effective form of battle magic.Characters with early entry into Mystic Theurge.
Characters with crossblooded sorcerer levels with orc/draconic bloodlines.
I recently played a 10-11 with a crossblooded bloatmage that would disagree. Whenever his turn occurred 90% of the enemy team would die to his fireballs.
I also have played with a high level Theurge that is quite intelligently build. The sheer number of spells available allows him to throw them around like pocket change, and he doesn't need to rest after a half-dozen difficult encounters like most spellcasters I know.
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Given that neither of these options are mechanically stronger than simply being a straight 9 spell level caster I don't think this is really true. Losing a caster level for early entry MT is a big deal. Crossblooded is a horrible trap for actual sorcerers and a decent dip for wizard/druid/cleric/oracle blasters but you are still basically using the least effective form of battle magic.Characters with early entry into Mystic Theurge.
Characters with crossblooded sorcerer levels with orc/draconic bloodlines.I recently played a 10-11 with a crossblooded bloatmage that would disagree. Whenever his turn occurred 90% of the enemy team would die to his fireballs.
I also have played with a high level Theurge that is quite intelligently build. The sheer number of spells available allows him to throw them around like pocket change, and he doesn't need to rest after a half-dozen difficult encounters like most spellcasters I know.
I agree with the man above, fireball can be quite effective, particularly if you've chosen to wield the power of the orcs and the dragons.
Also I generally find it polite to ask the party if they're prefer things not to go boom, so they can show off the fun things they can do. Generally speaking if everyone tries to make sure that the others they're adventuring with are having a good time, a better time is had by all.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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[ooc] Walter has the right of it. In this module virtually everyone at the table could take apart any encounter with this PC, any of the 3 CMB specialists, my wizard, or even Walter's gunslinger with his OP swift action door closing skills.
Just for the record, there were zero doors in need of opening or closing as a swift action in this module.
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Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Greenville
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I'm finally back to this thread, dreading the rage that I no doubt incurred... only to find discussion of diminutive blue gnomes. ;-)
So Core Campaign has been announced... I suspect that will (generally!) be more balanced.
Thanks xebeche for the compilation of powerful combinations.
Happy Gaming!