Subject line says it all, but here are the details.
The Core Rulebook contains rules at page 100 under the Knowledge skill description and in an entry on a table at page 101 which cover using Knowledge to "identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities." Here's the complete text of the rules and the final entry of Table 4-6: Knowledge Skill DCs.
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR, or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. Many of the Knowledge skills have specific uses as noted on Table 4–6.
Task: Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses
Knowledge Skill: Varies
DC: 10 + monster's CR
Note the use of the word "monster," which appears with variants six times in the rules paragraph and once in the table entry.
Now, turn to the quite specific definition of the word "monster" at page 12 of the Core Rulebook.
Monster: Monsters are creatures that rely on racial Hit Dice instead of class levels for their powers and abilities (although some possess class levels as well). PCs are usually not monsters.
So, it seems to me quite obvious that Knowledge checks to identify powers and vulnerabilities and foes are therefore only possible for monsters, and not for opponents who do not fit the definition of that term. So, no Knowledge check in the case of a half-orc illusionist, for example, or a human barbarian, or an elven witch.
However…
It has been pointed out to me that one of the two creatures specifically used as examples in the rules text is a goblin. And here's where things get confusing. Because this is text from the goblin's entry in the first Bestiary.
Goblins are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice.
And, even more frustratingly, here is a sentence from Appendix 4 of the Bestiary, Monsters as PCs.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice.
So, there's what we have to work with. My impulse at this point is to only allow Knowledge checks for creatures which have a Bestiary entry and call it a day, but I wish the rules were a bit clearer on the point.
I use monster knowledge checks for the monster/racial part of the creature and not for their leveled abilities. So your elven witch is a really low target knowledge local check to get whether elves use low light vision but gives no info as a monster check for the individual's class spells or class hex abilities.
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+1 Voadam
DC 5 Knowledge check will give you that the goblin in front of you has darkvision, hates horses and dogs, and are vicious little vile creatures that likes the taste of longshank flesh. In reality behind the GM screen, the goblin is the tribe's champion hunter and wrestler (Ranger 7, Monk 4)... roll initiative.
+1 Voadam
DC 5 Knowledge check will give you that the goblin in front of you has darkvision, hates horses and dogs, and are vicious little vile creatures that likes the taste of longshank flesh. In reality behind the GM screen, the goblin is the tribe's champion hunter and wrestler (Ranger 7, Monk 4)... roll initiative.
Precisely this. You can make the knowledge check for anything. But it's a knowledge check with regard to the creature type, not the creature itself.
Yeppers.
"Monster" is often used interchangeably with "creature" in the books.
It'll give you any racial abilities and whatnot, but not class features.
Yeah, If it's a thing that can move of its own accord, it's a monster.
Yup exactly what the first guy said. But I've been brainstorming a house rule to use some other skill to size up classed opponents. Any have any ideas?
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Yup exactly what the first guy said. But I've been brainstorming a house rule to use some other skill to size up classed opponents. Any have any ideas?
It can be hard to do, especially nowadays with archetype mixing and matching abilities from different classes. Brawler with mutagen (Mutagenic mauler) for example.
In my game , it depends some classes are rather obvious, regular Barbarian rage is distinctive enough to catch people attention, haven't had to deal yet with rages that increases dex...but guess will come up with something.
Yup exactly what the first guy said. But I've been brainstorming a house rule to use some other skill to size up classed opponents. Any have any ideas?
I would use knowledge (arcana) to identify arcane spellcasters (sorceres, wizards, witches, arcanists, maybe bards and perhaps bloodragers), and knowledge (religion) for clerics, warpriests and paladins. K(nature) would allow you to recognize druids, hunters and rangers...
this is only an example. I'm still on the verge as to what you'd use to seize purely martial characters... maybe K(local), to bump up it's usefulness.It'd be definitely a reactive check: you can asses the race of a monster from a glance, but not so much their abilities. They'd have to actualy use them first.
Maybe I'd allow a check on first sight to try and guess the class (based on general proficiencies and look), and then a second one as the abilities are used. Base DC=10+class levels, +5 per each archetype to represent the deviances from the standard.
Yup exactly what the first guy said. But I've been brainstorming a house rule to use some other skill to size up classed opponents. Any have any ideas?It can be hard to do, especially nowadays with archetype mixing and matching abilities from different classes. Brawler with mutagen (Mutagenic mauler) for example.
In my game , it depends some classes are rather obvious, regular Barbarian rage is distinctive enough to catch people attention, haven't had to deal yet with rages that increases dex...but guess will come up with something.
But what's a good skill to use to let a PC size up an opponent's strength from class levels the same way knowledge checks let you identify strengths and vulnerabilities for the monster/racial part?
I'm trying to think of some, as a house rule, cause I run a game with lots of templated monsters and NPC villains and I want to give some chance to size up what your getting into.
Edit: oops ninja'd. good ideas there efreeti
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In my game, we took inspiration from complete warrior/champion and use sense motive to basically assess an opponent.
DC 10 + CR
Then I take inspiration from my days playing everquest, to describe it:
Not a challenge: you could probably win this fight.
Easy challenge: appears to be quite formidable
Same APL/CR: looks like quite a gamble.
Hard (APL+1 or +2):looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
Epic (APL+3 and more) what would you like your tombstone to say?
I like that.
RAW this is one of the reasons why humanoids are the scariest opponents. Because you don't know whether that guy is a high level sorcerer who knows Magic Aura or just a low level aristocrat with nice clothes and lots of jewelry. All you know is humans have no special powers, but they are versatile. In my mind that is exactly how high level characters like it.
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Yup exactly what the first guy said. But I've been brainstorming a house rule to use some other skill to size up classed opponents. Any have any ideas?
That's a tough one, the only knowledge skills that don't inform you about enemy abilities currently are History, Nobility, Engineering and Geography, and those don't lend themselves to knowing when someone is a Monk/Druid or a Wizard/Fighter, and ascribing such a detail to a specific skill might make it too powerful. If you Divvied it up however, that might make it balanced.
Knowledge Arcana identifies INT-based casters and sorcerers and summoners.
Knowledge Religion identifies WIS-based casters and oracles and paladins.
Knowledge Local identifies Rogues, Bards, Barbarians, etc.
And so on.
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In my game, we took inspiration from complete warrior/champion and use sense motive to basically assess an opponent.
DC 10 + CR
Then I take inspiration from my days playing everquest, to describe it:
Not a challenge: you could probably win this fight.
Easy challenge: appears to be quite formidable
Same APL/CR: looks like quite a gamble.
Hard (APL+1 or +2):looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
Epic (APL+3 and more) what would you like your tombstone to say?
Sense Motive is a pretty valuable skill already though. If we were to put all "Class Identification" under a single skill, it might be best to put it under a skill that's underused.
Knowledge (History) could work, as you can base it off recognizing the fighting styles and techniques of past heroes, and drawing a comparison from there.
Alternatively Appraise could be used to determine what their equipment does, and from their deduce a probable class.