Question on Balance for 6 Players Conversion


Kingmaker


Hii ! So my 6 players party have just completed the 1st chapter. I used the conversion found on the forum but with some custom changes. I know that 6 players with 20pts-buy are strong, but they are new players so it evens out ...

The last encounter of the Chapter was made to test and push them to the limit : a 9th level Slayer Stag Lord with a huge boost to stats
( 20 / 20 / 20 / 14 / 12 / 14 ), thanks to the influence o the First World. They used everything but in the end in 7 Rounds they managed to kill him.

The Party ( they were level 3 for this fight ):

Aasimar Paladin ( 16 in Str and Cha, Two-handed Sword )
Human Bard ( Arcane Healer )
Elf Cavalier ( Beast Rider, no mount in this fight, but with 20+ CA )
Skinwalker Ranger ( with wolf companion, archer build )
Human Wizard ( Transmuter, Enlarge Person and Battlefield Control )
Human Sorcerer ( Crossblooded for damage )

Now they will get to the second chapter, and soon some magic items will fall in their hands .. I don't know if I should balance encounters to be much more challenging or observe them carefully and improvise. Sometimes they managed to win encounters quickly ( be it combat or social ), sometimes they did something "stupid" and the conseguences were harsh ( got 3 deaths so far, and they used a boon to get 2 Reincarnations by Bokken ) ..I've got plans for this chapters, but I don't know wht to do ! Toughts ?


I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. If the Stolen Land 6-player conversion worked for you, then the RRR conversion should work about as well?


Don't raise the Hit Dice.

Instead, maximize the HP of every monster, and boost their numbers by 50%.

For single-large-creature encounters add the Advanced simple template, or another +1-2 CR template.

That should keep things challenging for your players without making the enemy saves and DCs so high that they steamroll the party.


The conversion worked fine in some points, in others was still too easy and in a rare case too difficult. I will use the second chapter conversion, but will probably use Doomed suggestion aboout the important fights !

In your opinion giving Mythic Templates is unfair in this case ?
Like the one to get double initiative in a turn ...


For big important fights that will probably work well.

However, your players might get grumpy if the enemies have access to abilities that they can't get.

If they are all on board, go for it.


Goblin13 wrote:
The conversion worked fine in some points, in others was still too easy and in a rare case too difficult.

Well, it's hard to say much without knowing which encounters they struggled with and which they stomped.

I always give solo and/or important foes max HP. Otherwise they go down too quickly for my tastes. And note that most creatures in the conversions already have the Advanced template, as it's the easiest way to bump up a monster's CR by 1.

I guess one bit of advice I would offer for RRR is that a lot of the opponents (maybe even all of them?) have no meaningful ranged combat option. So if a group can tie down the opposition and hit from a distance, they will have an easy time of things. In some areas this may not be possible, like the dungeons, because of lack of room or LOS or what have you. But in the open outdoors it's a different story. When my group attacked the lizardfolk I realized the lizardfolk either had to cower in their village and take it, or come out to meet the party and get hit while they closed the distance. I had given them a druid ahead of time, which gave them more options, but by the book they would have been screwed.


I would suggest not using single boss fight encounters. I would up the CR, by adding more minions that compliment the BBEG's. Kingmaker is already easy enough. As an example there is a hex with a dire tiger in it. Give the dire tiger some tiger buddies, or give it a humanoid companion(s). Maybe it is not eating them because they raised it from birth.


[ Mites and Bandits of the River were the easiest part, the Kobold Leader managed to kill 2 members of the party, they were terrified ( probably just unlucky dice rolls but who knows? Kobolds are scaryyyy ^_^ ) ! ]

Ah well i'm not afraid of their ranged combat, the ranger is happy with his usually -6 to hit with Rapid Shot. The Sorcerer is a bit more lucky with touch attacks but melee fights are over-crowded because of the Cavalier with a elk, a Paladin and a large Wolf xD ! But sure I have great plans and reading the assault of your party sounds really epic !

More minions, got it !


They fought the kobold chieftain? That's unusual, I would love to hear that story. Or do you mean the kobold sorcerer, Tartuk?

I agree with adding more foes when you can get away with it. If you have 1 opponent and 6 PCs, that's 1 round of actions you get to take vs. 6 for the players. Which usually works out very poorly for the opponent, unless they have some mass save or die/incapacitate effect. Given that your group is using 20-pt-buy, you might want to use the 6-player conversion and add in some extra foes. Personally I recommend giving some spell support to the lizardfolk and the trolls.


Yeah I meant the Shaman, the de facto leader until they crashed in xD !
Upgraded him with Kobold Spells ( like Create Pit ) and his wand of magic missiles caused 1 Round of Fright on a failed save ( because of a sub-quest I created that links to Candlemere in this Chapter ).

Adding some spellcasting to the Lizards is on my list, maybe an oracle.
For the trolls aside from the Necklace of Player's Doom ... well my plan was to turn Hargulka in a Bloodrager xD !
( the Party got a prophecy speaking of a Warlord that enslave giants with chains of fire, so the troll leader will fight with a Scorching Spiked Chain, and probably Whirlwinding it )


I've used (still using) the 6 player conversion for KM2-6 (currently starting 6):


  • KM2 (5 PCs) - I run as is, but it was mostly very easy for the players.
  • KM3 (5 PCs, 1 cohort) - Run mostly as is; only increasing HP to max and grouping fights near the end in V's Tomb as i saw they are having to easy a time. The fight with V was the toughest they had up to that moment.
  • KM4-5 (4 PCs, 2 cohorts) - All enemies got a max HP. Important NPC enemies got a boost of 1-3 levels, or advanced template, etc.. Was a bit more challenging for most fights, but party was never in any real danger.
    Final battle in KM5 was the toughest they had so far, lasted long and depleted most of their resources with several of the PCs/NPCs almost dying. The ECL for that last encounter was 19! The party was level 13 (with two 11th level cohorts).
  • KM6 - first session tomorrow. I've already re-worked all encoutners from the 6 player conversion: Advanced Templates, more HDs, more monsters, more class-levels, etc...

I've also slowed down their level progression. So they are starting KM6 at level 14 and will only advance to 15 near the end (I don't use XP, so they level up when i tell them to..)

Part of what skews this is the amount of Wealth they have (apart from being good tactical thinkers and experience players). Lots of money and time to Create Items/Armor/Weapons/etc...

[EDIT]: by the way, while i used the 5 Player Conversion, since they were only 4 PCs i gave them the treasures according to the KM modules.

Hope that helps,
-arnon


I'll reiterate, because it's important-

Don't Raise Hit Dice.

The amount of hit points you need to give a monster to compensate for additional players is about 5 per level of the PCs. Getting those necessary extra hit points by increasing a reader's Hit Dice means adding an awful lot of Hit Dicey the time you get to the CR 5+ range.

Hit Dice give monsters extra Feats, Skill points, Saving Throws, and ability DCs.

Basically, if you add Hit Dice, your monsters will always make their saves, and your players will always fail theirs. It makes the game into a very one-sided game of rocket tag.

Instead, keep the Hit Dice where they are and add extra monsters, or add templates to them. Or both.


Frankly, I have no problem with the extras gained by HD. My party can deal with it, in fact, they'll steamroll over all but the most difficult encounters.

I don't throw many encounters at my PCs (no random encounters, and leaving irrelevant encounters out of the fray), so if the monster they meet do hit harder and are tougher (saving throws, hp) all the better (skills are irrelevant for encounter monsters). And no, they don't always save, and the PCs don't always fail; all it means is that the fights might take a round or two longer

YMMV... i'm fitting these encounters for my part of course.

Cheers,
-arnon


I'll try to balance, for some encounters more mobs, for others more HD.

Lizards will stay in the middle, a little more of them, with more HD ( after reading the Monster Codex I really hope for a Diplomatic Solution, so i will heavily upgrade the tribe xD )


Adding a couple of HD to a monster isn't going to dramatically alter their power level. Getting maybe +1 to saving throws certainly doesn't translate into always making saves. Heck, the Advanced template adds +2 to everything (and +2 more to AC and CMD) and isn't a game breaker by any means.

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