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Have you considered Witch?
They're very much full casters (which you seem to like), with a Good Will Save, healing magic (which is always solid), and a variety of Save-or-Suck effects available to you. But they're also very much their own thing, with a set of spells plus Hexes that allow some really neat stuff.
You could summon stuff with a Witch, but you certainly don't have to, and they've got a very solid set of options if focusing on Save-or-Suck, which is pretty useful and debatably optimal.
And there are some very nice thematic elements to play with regarding Witch as well.
I agree that low Will saves can be one of the toughest things to endure. It is a shame you’ve already done an Oath of Vengeance Paladin since 4 levels of that could be great with a lot of different classes. The power up to saving throws is amazing.
Requirements 4 and 5 seem to be somewhat at odds to me since a Bard is a character people would like to play with. I think a Dirge Bard could work well for you. If you happen to end up with a martial heavy party you can do all the normal Bardic buffs like Inspire Courage. If you happen to end up with an “all caster table” you can flip to scary mode and use stuff like Dirge of Doom, Blistering Invective, and Fear. Since Dirge Bards get a boost to the DC of fear effects their Fear spell is very potent.
I don’t think there’s any party where hitting an enemy with Ray of Enfeeblement or making him shaken and sickened wouldn’t be at least sort of helpful. Later on you also get the ability to animate fallen foes as skeletons and zombies during combat. That might be more amusing than useful but still a little different from what the standard Bard would be doing…
If you like summoning the Bard can also take some summon spells. Unfortunately you’d be a level behind on what you’re summoning, but the bardic buffs could help make up for that, and at higher levels stuff like lantern archons can be very effective when buffed. I found my buddy the hound archon made a big difference in certain fights even at higher levels due to stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil (not normally on the Bard list but a good way to stop mind control)
Maybe a gnome? Pick any class and play it as crazy.
Because every knows gnomes are crazy.
Take a look at the Investigator, maybe a cynical hard boiled type or a logical Sherlock style one.
I second the Inquisitor. My god, so much fun and so much damage potential.
Be prepared to like math if you play it. With my guy and Plant domain I have to keep track of Divine favor/power, Bane, Judgements, Bramble armor, Enlarges, Teamwork feat bonuses, Power Attack, Critical hits with my keen falchion,etc.
The only problem is that now I really don't want to ever play anything else. I'm sure that feeling will change.....probably.
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Alchemist or Investigator look good for you criteria and playstyle. They are sixth level casters via extracts, have access to mutagens and discoveries, and either bombs or studied combat.While I personally don't favor the alchemist as much the investigator is cool I'm just not sure what you're supposed to do in combat given your... pitiful proficiency. I tried to build a dex based wayang one but it just looked so pitiful with 1d4+4 at level 3 and even worse before that.
They do start a little slow, but weapon choice, enlarge person, and mutagen can help in low level. Once you get to level 4, Studied Combat makes the class really takes off.
Inquistor is the one you have been missing.I'd considered this but every time I actually sit down and look at it I just feel like it's so much worse than the WP. I compare them and honestly I've never seen an inquisitor that felt better than a similar WP. Perhaps I don't know enough about solo tactics but it just feels so underwhelming.
Inquisitor is much better with the Sanctified Slayer or Sacred Huntmaster archetypes. They both give more than they lose.
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I was trying to make a dex based small one, that must have been my problem. The issue I see is that you're not proficient with a good weapon.
This is where racial weapons come in handy. Half-orc for falchion/great axe or Dwarf for Heavy Pick/Battle Axe helps, although Longspear is perfectly fine for a reach weapon if you chose to go that route.
Holy moly. Judgement is terrible so both of those two things are great. The animal companion is overpowered but from a player's perspective may violate #5 because it does as much work as literally half the party.
Yeah. Sanctified Slayer is pretty boss though, if not quite as much so as the Huntmaster.
They do start a little slow, but weapon choice, enlarge person, and mutagen can help in low level. Once you get to level 4, Studied Combat makes the class really takes off.I was trying to make a dex based small one, that must have been my problem. The issue I see is that you're not proficient with a good weapon. I think I'd like an investigator or magus if I could find builds that were STR based without the AC which reads "My barbarian has better AC so yes."
Inquisitor is much better with the Sanctified Slayer or Sacred Huntmaster archetypes. They both give more than they lose.Holy moly. Judgement is terrible so both of those two things are great. The animal companion is overpowered but from a player's perspective may violate #5 because it does as much work as literally half the party.
Wait...what? Judgments are fantastic; the Swiss Army knife of your Inquisitor. Swift action to bring me up to fighter BAB and damage? Or fast healing if I am chasing foes through the streets of Sandpoint? Energy resistance of my choice? Perhaps a bonus to penetrate the tough SR of that enemy mage?
Unless we are fighting our Ranger's favored enemy my Inquisitor easily outshines everything else in my party. Also, some DMs don't replace your animal companion very quickly if it dies. While in a deep dungeon our Ranger lost her cougar and it was seven sessions later before we got out so she could get another.
You can't lose your judgments.
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Halfling Sorcerer comes to my mind, you don't have to be the face instead taking Intimidate if you where one of the Halflings that managed to flee and escape a certain empire. perhaps a few ranks in a profession skill to show a history other than spellcasting or even a craft skill. As for Casting, could go with Ray based caster instead of a summoning, pretty straight forward 'arcane loner' that wants to make friends but isn't good at it.
I have found my Inquisitor to be most effective against all creature types and alignments for long battles. Say, at 12th level:
So with one Divine Favor casting (+4/+4 due to Fate's favored/sacred tattoo half-orc) and a Swift Action judgment on round one (+3/+6); move up to position. Next round Swift action Bane (+2/+2) and an extra 4d6 per hit on my now full-attack round.
With my 18 strength and improved Critical Feat for the +2 falchion:
2d4+6(strength)+9(Power Attack)+5(Judgement)+2(Bane)+4(Divine favor)+2(magic weapon)and extra 4d6 for the Greater Bane.
2d4+4d6+28 per hit. Threat range of 15-20.
Also, as per compared to the warpriest, doesn't the sacred weapon only last 1 round per level? And the Paladin's Smite evil is vs. only one enemy at a time?
While a judgment lasts as long as the battle against every single enemy. Even ones that are not evil.
But....I have to admit my backup character is a dwarven Warpriest of Cayden Cailean and he looks to be a lot of fun. And fun is the name of the game:)
Is Sacred Fist the only Archetype that trades out Sacred Weapon? I though there was more.
Also, do they get longbow proficiency? Because sometimes you want to kill things from a long ways away and I like the switch-hitter character.
OK....I just read over the Animal Focus part of the Inquisitor Archetype. I did not realize that was a Swift Action AND it lasts one minute per level AND you can make it last indefinately on your animal companion.
Also, it seems that the Animal Companion is at the same level as its master (not -3 as some other classes). So no need to spend a feat on Boon Companion.
So, yes, this is a rather impressive trade for Judgments.
Gnomes make good life oracles. They have extra hp for life link. Everyone will love your mad healing skills.
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That does help but it still leaves the issue of "My AC is a joke" which str based magus/investigator would both have =\. Which is unfortunate since both of those fit the bill.
There's an easy way around that for Investigators. Just grab Medium Armor Proficiency. There's not a lot of competition for level 1 Feats (there is thereafter, but not at level 1), after all. Heck, as a Human you could start with Heavy Armor Proficiency. It's not like they have spell failure chances.
Then you grab Power Attack at level 3 and probably Extra Investigator Talent thereafter (because it's great). This build probably isn't quite optimal in the long term, but it's solid, and an excellent skill-monkey on non-physical skills.
Additionally, Shield really helps with AC issues, though admittedly not really reliably. Mutagen also helps a bit, as do various other Extracts as you level.
I'd also like to note that due to Inspired Weapons, you very much want to use a starting investigator weapon. Longspear is solid enough for a Str build.
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If you want to have an effective small dex based investigator, a one level dip into Swashbuckler with the Mouser and Inspired Blade archetypes will serve you well. You can have fencing grace at level one, rapier is the best investigator weapon and can be inspired, and you can become tiny with reduce person and cause all kinds of havoc.
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I think this is why I've never build a magus or investigator. It takes weird measures like this to make them useful and they still can't do as well as others =\. Admittedly he's great out of combat but the problem is that I play with people on both ends of the optimization spectrum (from Archer barbarians to a power attacking 2 hander is maximum optimization) and with the lower end group this isn't really capable of surviving if it's a hard adventure.
Uh...you're kidding, right?
Magus is probably the best burst-damage character in the game, and Investigator is vicious from level 3-5 onward. Both have absurd offense if built with any skill at all, and high AC when they want it from the Shield spell, with high enough AC even sans spells at higher levels. They're slightly fragile at low levels...but make up for it in other ways...and in the Investigator's case that can be helped a lot with Feats if you so desire.
Let's take a look at, say, a Human Str-build Investigator with a Longspear. We'll assume 20 point-buy.
Str 17 (+2 Human) Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 7
Feat: Whatever you like. And you've got 2 of them.
At 1st level, you attack for +3 for 1d8+4 damage, which is admittedly mediocre...but you can make that 2d6+6 with Enlarge Person. Your AC is 16, which is respectable, or 20 with Shield (which is very good), or 18 with Shield and Enlarge Person (which is a once per day thing, but nice while it lasts).
That's pretty decent, if not spectacular.
However, Investigator ramps up really quick, so let's look at level 5. You take Power Attack as your Feat at 3 (and whatever you like at 5), add to Str with level, and grab Mutagen and Quick Study as Talents. We'll assume a Masterwork weapon and +1 armor.
Your attack is now, with Mutagen, a +11 for 1d8+14 damage. Enlarge Person makes that 2d6+15 damage if you like. Bull's Strength would make it +13 for 1d8+17. Your AC has gone up less to a mere 19, 23 with Shield, but there are other possible enhancements and that's very respectable. And those offense numbers go up quite a bit at level 6, actually (+1 to hit and +4 damage total).
In both cases, you can also use Inspiration to succeed at a few rolls a day you'd otherwise fail.
Just for comparison, a level 5 Barbarian with Str 18 and Dex 14 (when not raging), Power Attack, and a Masterwork Greatsword, at level 5 is gonna have +10 to hit for 2d6+15 damage, and have an AC of 19, 17 while raging. He'll have a lot more HP and a better Fort Save than the Investigator, and will get an AC boost at 6th from Beast Totem (a whole +2 while raging), but still...that's not a large difference in the Barb's favor, and the Investigator's a caster who wins at skills to boot.
Going with Medium or Heavy Armor ups those Investigator AC numbers by a bit (+2 to +4), and lets you start with Str 18 and Dex 12 in the case of Heavy Armor, but it's hardly necessary.
Magus is much less my favorite Class, so I don't have those numbers quite as memorized...but their burst damage is very good indeed starting at level 3 or so, and before that, they're basically a Wizard who can hit people with a sword when they aren't using Color Spray.
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No. I'm not. Buffs like shield and minutes/level buffs are almost never available to me as such you have AC 16 not 20. This means you have barbarian AC without barbarian HP.
Well...as mentioned, getting Armor Proficiency solves that problem rather neatly.
You talk about enlarge/bull str/other buffs that are min/level. All of those buffs aren't really available in most fights.
They aren't? Why not? You're an Investigator, max your Stealth, grab some Invisibility if necessary and scout. Then it's available.
This obviously works less well in heavier armor, but then, heavier armor makes it less necessary.
With 18 str, power attack, a +1 weapon and mutagen (Which is 10/level so it's fine) you're at 1d8+13 or +14 with a belt at 5th this goes up by 2 with studied strike. I tried to make it dex based for defensive abilities but it didn't work well.
Yep, that's what I was basing my calculations on (well, sans Belt).
Again this doesn't solve the major issue of "I'm squishy squish mc squishy" but a long spear does appear to solve the problem of damage which I didn't think of since I was thinking dex based. Combat reflexes might help defensive abilities though since you can trip.
Combat Reflexes is definitely a possibility, but like I said, you can also wear Full Plate if you like. In which case you're likely getting better AC than most Fighters due to Mutagen.
While I agree it's also a glass cannon unless you go dexterity which has less burst and requires level 3 to actually start working. I am worried about the squishy part of the magus not it's exemplary damage.
Eh, 15-16 AC at 1st isn't so bad. Especially since you can use Spell Combat to cast Shield (or later Mirror Image) and attack in the same turn. It's not the biggest attack ever, but it you went Str, it's likely decent, damage-wise.
Oh, and Human or Kensai Dex Magi are now online as damage dealers at level 1 due to Fencing Grace.
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Oh, and Human...Dex Magi are now online as damage dealers at level 1 due to Fencing Grace.How is a Human Magus getting Weapon Finesse plus Weapon Focus (BAB+1) plus Fencing Grace at level 1? 3 feats and one requires BAB+1+
If my Hexcrafter Magus can do this I'd love to pick it up. :)
My bad, I meant Human Kensai, not Human or Kensai. Kensai get Weapon Focus free, which combined with Human makes it work.