|
Also, Signature Deed can only be used once per round and Abundant Ammunition doesn't work with paper cartridges...
Looks like they are trying to center the 'slinger in a "one attack per round" thing.
Yeah, it's not super great.
There's a new addition to the beginning of the guide in the 'thoughts' section, now talking about the '5th level' issue and my thoughts on it. And yeah, BA/GS 5 is the highest I'd ever go, the class doesn't have enough to validate going further, and there's plenty of options (switch hitters LOVE taking Swash 1) that make a FAR better character. I'd almost say GS shouldn't be played to 20 as a concept since there might not be enough dips to take it that far without some very long term planning, but going GS 5/Fit 2(3)/Mnk 2(3)/SB 1/Brb 2 is enough if you're not duel wielding.
Gunslinger 7th gives the all-important 'Dead Shot' deed, which is an "all your eggs in one bullet". Gunslinger 11th and Signature Deed (Dead Shot), now you don't need to worry about grit so much.
Unless once again the poor Gunslinger's been nerf-batted to death when I wasn't looking... or there's some way to increase "effective Gunslinger level" I've not stumbled across.
|
|
Gunslinger 7th gives the all-important 'Dead Shot' deed, which is an "all your eggs in one bullet". Gunslinger 11th and Signature Deed (Dead Shot), now you don't need to worry about grit so much.
Unless once again the poor Gunslinger's been nerf-batted to death when I wasn't looking... or there's some way to increase "effective Gunslinger level" I've not stumbled across.
All important? Since when? Sig dead was beaten into submission, seeing as it can't be used with most of the things it was normally paired with as well as having been nerfed itself, there's no real reason to stay with it with how amazing the benefits from dips can be. I love switch hitting with crossbow and unarmed strike myself, which benefits largely from a dip into swashbuckler since I don't need two hands on my crossbow when it's not my round most of the time, especially if it's light.
deadshot is one of the worst deeds ever, its a full attack which deals less damage than a full attack and makes you waste grit, if anything targeting is a reason to go to 7 if you feel like supporting a little
You get both, so you can do both.
I like the Vital Strike feat chain, it makes two-handers hit like a Mack truck after a move action to engage.
A Gunslinger gets the entire Vital Strike feat chain plus the equivalent of Pinpoint Targeting (depending on range-to-target) for free with all of his bangsticks at 7th level via the Dead Shot deed. It works just fine with haste and Rapid Shot and it has the potential to deliver a x4 critical hit every other round, perhaps more often depending on how someone decides to crunch the numbers. Critical hits multiply the entire shot if confirmed (the confirmation of which is likely, albeit slightly penalized), unlike the Vital Strike feat chain.
At 7th level, that's 4 base bullets' worth of damage plus all of the bonuses against touch AC, increasing to 16 base bullets' worth of damage plus (4x bonus damage) on a confirmed critical hit that probably occurs at least every 3rd round/shot.
At 11th with Signature Deed (Dead Shot) that improves to 5 base bullets' worth plus bonuses against the often lower touch AC of almost everything you shoot, every shot, until you run out of ammunition. Assuming a 19-20/x4 critical threshold by this point (and a susceptible-to-crits target, which is far more often than not), every other round something takes 20 base bullets' worth of damage plus (4x bonus damage).
I can live with that. ;)
|
|
Was deadshot ruled to work with rapid shot/haste already?
Either way, the highest damage weapon that isn't an advanced firearm is 1d12, and a few extra d12s to a full round attack isn't exactly the most amazing thing in the world.
Maybe a double barreled shotgun (if the GM doesn't think that double tapping takes a standard action for this, which I don't think it does), since you're multiplying 4d8 X amount of times.
|
turin, deadshot doesnt work with rapid/haste or the like.
vital strike is a standard action, this one is a fullround action, also vital strike doesnt cost grit.
the critical is decieving, had you full attacked you would have gotten more attacks and a critical( or more, on tha scenario), this means you would have gotten more damage, you wouldnt be invalidating your own feats and you wouldnt be spending grit.
As DB guns have been nerfed they dont work with deadshot anymore, they used to as per the developers comment, but thats it.
If im spending a fullround action AND grit to do something i expect that something is more useful than fullattacking, deadshot is not more useful.
Dead shot issues:
1) Haste/rapid shot - As written, Dead Shot appears to not get any additional attacks from rapid shot and haste. I currently have an FAQ for this particular issue. It has not been responded to yet and has almost 40 clicks. If you want an answer to this go there and click FAQ.
2) Double barrel weapons - Dead Shot can no longer utilize double barrel firearms with a double tap. This is because the new UC errata changed a double tap to an attack action. As a result, dead shot takes a 50% reduction in DPR. Additionally, Dead Shot with a single barrel firearm is now inferior to utilizing vital strike with a double barrel firearm. Although you do save feat space with Dead Shot you pay for it with an increased action cost.
ElementalXX: The critical portion of Dead Shot is deceiving but not in the way you describe it. I specifically created a DPR formula (its in the advice section if your interested) for Dead Shot because I felt the mechanics were not well represented by the standard DPR formula. With a DB firearm, critical damage made up a very large portion (close to 50%?) of the DPR potential of Deadshot. This is because the more attacks you have the more likely you are to roll a single critical hit and thus multiply ALL attacks by your crit mod. Before the errata a lvl 11 DB firearm Dead Shot (w/ Imp Crit) utilizing just BAB attacks (6 attacks) had a 46.85% chance of a critical hit. If you allow rapid shot / haste (10 attacks) then it goes up to 65.13%. If you then take that to a full BAB progression (12 attacks) then it is 71.75%. Yep...roughly 3 out of 4 attacks is a X4 critical. Now with a post errata single barrel firearm and allowing rapid shot and haste a lvl 20 GS has 6 attacks and a 46.85% chance of a crit.
Some basic Deadshot DPR calc based on new errata.
Straight lvl 11 Myst Stranger
16 Dex
26 Cha
+1 musket
Point blank, precise, rapid shot, weapon focus, imp crit, critical focus
Versus Touch AC 15 (based on DPR olympics threads, relatively high for a realistic CR encounter)
BAB only (3 attacks): DPR = 66.66
Rapid / Haste (5 attacks): DPR = 112.92
Alternatively: straight lvl 11 twf pistolero
Dex 26
+1 pistol x2
point blank, precise, rapid, weapon focus, imp crit, twf, some gun twirling for reloads, deadly aim
1 grit point for close and deadly @3d6
EDIT: If you have an alternative build you want me to test just leave it here.
EDIT 2: IGNORE the pistolero DPR (deleted from post). Misfire for twf is complex. I need a little time to work out the ramifications since you can misfire once and continue the rest of the full attack (minus the off hand) with the other weapon. How would we rule misfiring with 1 pistol in a twf full attack? Is the off-hand attack at the end of the attacks or is the choice of order arbitrary?
Pistolero build above new DPR with correct misfire consequences.
TWF / rapid / haste (6 attacks): DPR = 120.68 (misfire on 1-2: DPR = -30.07)
turin, deadshot doesnt work with rapid/haste or the like.
vital strike is a standard action, this one is a fullround action, also vital strike doesnt cost grit.
the critical is decieving, had you full attacked you would have gotten more attacks and a critical( or more, on tha scenario), this means you would have gotten more damage, you wouldnt be invalidating your own feats and you wouldnt be spending grit.
As DB guns have been nerfed they dont work with deadshot anymore, they used to as per the developers comment, but thats it.
If im spending a fullround action AND grit to do something i expect that something is more useful than fullattacking, deadshot is not more useful.
There's no reason why it doesn't work with Rapid Shot and haste, as Dead Shot states " makes as many attack rolls as she can ". Haste adds an attack on a full attack (which Dead Shot is). Rapid Shot adds another attack at a penalty to all attacks on a full attack. *shrugs* If they FAQ this in the negative, of course this changes the concept for the worse.
Vital Strike costs three feats by BAB 16, Pinpoint Targeting costs another feat. Dead Shot effectively grants all four of them, two at 7th level (Vital Strike and Pinpoint Targeting), at no feat cost. Grit isn't infinite, true, but it's also not usually so finite that it runs out before an adventuring day is done.
Neither approach increases the numerical likelihood of delivering critical hits. All Dead Shot needs is one confirmed critical hit to multiply the entire pool of bullet dice and the bonus.
More attacks is more chances of a misfire (costing more grit) and a much higher rate of ammunition consumption in trade for higher damage output. Once a reliable firearm is online at 7th-8th level, that changes ... somewhat, or a lot, depending on the specific weapon. Single-barreled pistols become completely reliable, otherwise only the culverin (a scatter weapon) enjoys a 0 Misfire with the reliable enchantment/ranged weapon quality.
I see it as "tomayto, tomahto".
I don't see anything else at 7th that is more useful than a full attack, whether by Dead Shot or simply firing ammunition down range.
*shrugs* I'll check those FAQs pokes, although at the rate things are going ...
Dead shot issues:
1) Haste/rapid shot - As written, Dead Shot appears to not get any additional attacks from rapid shot and haste. I currently have an FAQ for this particular issue. It has not been responded to yet and has almost 40 clicks. If you want an answer to this go there and click FAQ.
2) Double barrel weapons - Dead Shot can no longer utilize double barrel firearms with a double tap. This is because the new UC errata changed a double tap to an attack action. As a result, dead shot takes a 50% reduction in DPR. Additionally, Dead Shot with a single barrel firearm is now inferior to utilizing vital strike with a double barrel firearm. Although you do save feat space with Dead Shot you pay for it with an increased action cost.
ElementalXX: The critical portion of Dead Shot is deceiving but not in the way you describe it. I specifically created a DPR formula (its in the advice section if your interested) for Dead Shot because I felt the mechanics were not well represented by the standard DPR formula. With a DB firearm, critical damage made up a very large portion (close to 50%?) of the DPR potential of Deadshot. This is because the more attacks you have the more likely you are to roll a single critical hit and thus multiply ALL attacks by your crit mod. Before the errata a lvl 11 DB firearm Dead Shot (w/ Imp Crit) utilizing just BAB attacks (6 attacks) had a 46.85% chance of a critical hit. If you allow rapid shot / haste (10 attacks) then it goes up to 65.13%. If you then take that to a full BAB progression (12 attacks) then it is 71.75%. Yep...roughly 3 out of 4 attacks is a X4 critical. Now with a post errata single barrel firearm and allowing rapid shot and haste a lvl 20 GS has 6 attacks and a 46.85% chance of a crit.
Where are the FAQs you mention?
I don't factor double-barreled weapons into my useage of Dead Shot. Ammunition costs money. ;)
Ranged attackers' action costs *seem* less consequential than they are for melee attackers. Vital Strike is the same as a BAB +7 GS using Dead Shot without the benefits of haste and Rapid Shot. Since the wording of Dead Shot (to me) allows the latter two, I'm understandably curious about the FAQ outcome. Until there is something FAQ'd that disagrees with the "make as many attacks as she can" wording of Dead Shot, well ... bang, take a Greater Vital Strike with better critical hit damage and a FAR lower likelihood of a misfire.
^________^
Thanks and FAQ'd.
|
|
This is because the more attacks you have the more likely you are to roll a single critical hit and thus multiply ALL attacks by your crit mod
This is true, but you are implying they are many attacks, they are not, its one attack with extra damage.
I find your comparison flawed, your pistolero is missing 2 feats to have gun twirling, also pistolero is not the optimized choice now, its mysterious stranger. Im gonna use your stats, so dont think im fabricating stuff
_____________________________________________________________________
Comparison:
Assumptions:
-Rapid reload,Point blank, precise, rapid shot, weapon focus, imp crit, critical focus
-"Total" considers 1 crit, 1 confirm and that the rest all hits
-"Min Damage" considers autohits only
-"No crit damage" asumes all hits, no crits, average damage
-both are mysterious strangers
-misfires will be ignored trough myserious stranger feature
Normal build:
26 dex
16 Cha
+1 Pistol
lvl 11 mysterious stranger with pistol/rapidshot/haste/deadly aim/signature deed(focused Aim)>legit since it works for a round, you only need to activate it once per round
Base Damage:
1d8+8(dex)+3(cha)+1(enh)+1(PBS)+6(deadly aim)=>Average= 23
Attack Base:
11(bab)+8(dex)+1(enh)+1(PBS)+1(haste)-2(rapid)=>Total=+20
Attack Rotation:
+20/+20/+20/+15/+10
(everything but the last attack autohits ac 15)
Critical Damage: 92
4 attacks: 92
Total: 184
No Crit Damage: 148
Minimum Damage: 115
Deadshot build:
16 Dex
26 Cha
+1 Musket
lvl 11 mysterious stranger with pistol/rapidshot/haste/deadly aim/signature deed(focused Aim)/Grit will be used for deadshot/no misfire, since its unlikely
1d12+6(Cha)+3(Dex)+1(enh)+1(PBS)+6(deadly aim)=>Average= 25
Extra Dice damage: 1d12+6(Cha)=>Average= 12
Attack Base:
11(bab)+3(dex)+1(enh)+1(PBS)+1(haste)-2(rapid)=>Total=+15
Attack Rotation:
+15/+10/+5
(only 1st autohits touch ac 15)
Critical Damage = (25+12+12)*4 = 49*4= 196
Total: 196
No crit Damage: 49
Minimum Damage: 25
____________________________________________________________________
So there it is, even if you get only one crit(because with a full attack you can potentially get more than one), normal full attack has much better accuracy but deals slightly damage and it doesnt make you waste grit, on the other hand it could make you waste "stranger's luck" attemps, but thats a little compromise. Another detail is that using musket doest allow you to rapid reload as a free action, this means you can do this trick every other turn with the same dpr, or else not use focused aim and use the lighting reload to reload and make the dpr lower next round. Also its possible potential damage could be upped with a different point buy distribution to pump charisma higher on normal build, but well idk how you did yours
And this comparison only is worthy if criticals are implied, if there are no crits deadshot damage is pretty pathethic in comparison to a full attack
If they however fix deadshot to make it work with other attacks, it would be worth using, at least
This is because the more attacks you have the more likely you are to roll a single critical hit and thus multiply ALL attacks by your crit modThis is true, but you are implying they are many attacks, they are not, its one attack with extra damage.
Yes. That is correct. I was referring to them as attacks since you are making attack rolls AS IF making a full attack. The important thing is that the number of attack rolls that you make and the crit chance per attack roll directly effects the overall crit chance for the Dead Shot.
I break this down in a formula to calculate the DPR of a Dead Shot HERE
I find your comparison flawed, your pistolero is missing 2 feats to have gun twirling, also pistolero is not the optimized choice now, its mysterious stranger. Im gonna use your stats, so dont think im fabricating stuff
It was kind of a back of napkin build that I threw together in my head while writing the post.
I find your idea that the current errata changes make the mysterious stranger the top archetype interesting. I think you may be right on that. The ability to ignore misfires is HUGE deal. Way bigger than any build or guide on the forums makes it out to be. The fact that the pistolero and musket master can no longer ignore that issue is a big change. On top of that the changes to Close and Deadly really cut down the full attack damage.
Having said that I am going to be working on some comparisons with the Myst Str similar to what you did (full attack vs dead shot). I think that in a straight gunslinger build they may be somewhat close, with the full attack still eking out more DPR. However, a full attack Myst Str can definitely take more advantage of multi-classing than the Dead Shot can. Additional static damage favors the full attack, unless that static is more CHA.
...Builds and calculations...
I think I have settled on the Mys Str using a pistol before lvl 11 and a musket after. This would utilize a retraining of firearm specific feats. The musket is great after 11 because of lightning reload (lightning + rapid + Alch Cart -> free action reload of 1 barrel).
You forgot to incorporate the -3 to Attack from deadly aim.
You may also find that deadly aim is not great to use with dead shot. Since you only get the damage added once it does not make up for the loss of attack bonus and yields a loss of DPR.
Also, I find it isn't very fair to compare the builds at 11 since deadly aim gets a big bump next lvl. For my new comparisons I will be using either lvl 7 (when you get dead shot) or lvl 12 (when deadly aim is bumped to -4/+8)
Three suggestions to the guide:
1) I feel you should include a section for advanced firearms. With Iron Gods, these weapons should be easily available. Their are two regions of the map where advanced firearms shouldn't be difficult to justify to most GMs (Starfall up north and Alkenstar/Mana Wastes down south). But are high tech cities where these weapons can be acquired.
2) Add Skinwalkers to the guide, especially the weretiger-kin. +2 Dex, +2 Perception and See in Darkness. See in Darkness is possibly is one of the best ranged abilities in the game. It's Darkvision with no maximum range. You can fire at people with no penalty out beyond the range of normal dark vision and can see in supernatural dark.
3) I have been working on a level 5 build with a friend of mine. You may want to add Ninja to the multi-class. I feel it makes a great gun build as early as level three.
Level 1 Gunslinger/Level 2 Ninja
Firearm Proficiency
Gunsmith
Grit
Deeds (Level 1)
Sneak Attack +1d6
Ki Pool (1/2 Ninja Level + Cha mod)
Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick (Invisibility)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Within 30 feet, the character can go invisible and pop out making three sneak attack shots and at end of the attack, use a swift action to return invisible. Can be stacked with pistelero for bonus damage, or with sniper's goggle's/rapid reload/rifle for a nasty sneak attack sniper. With invisibility it allows for a handful of easily repeatable triple sneak attacks every day with the number increasing as the character gains ninja levels.
I've been looking into firearm development, something I'm going to need to really get into in the relatively near future ... but PF (all D&D games, really) really sort of falls down when it comes to firearms. To be brief:
Firearms can be seperated into five groups: primitive (flash-pan, wheel-lock, matchlock, that sort of thing), simple (flintlock), developed (percussion cap or pin-fire, the latter of which is what alchemical cartridges are, including the first breech-loaders as compared to muzzle-loaders), advanced (rim-fire metal cartridges, all breech-loads), and modern firearms (center-fire cartridges as well as automatic and semi-automatic weapons).
The leap between advanced and modern firearms - and even going from developed to modern - is a matter of decades. On Earth, the flintlock is developed around 1630; the percussion cap in 1825. From there, it's a measley 52 years (1877) to the Winchester double-action revolver, and only six more to the Maxim gun, the world's first recoil-powered machine gun.
Pathfinder, however, already has metal cartridges and breechloading weapons - developed on Earth in 1857. The first field-piece automatic weapons (the French Mitrailleuse) made use of this in 1859, and Spencer developed his repeating carbine in 1860.
Which means PF (and other games) are much, much closer to the Gatling Gun (virtually already available), semi-auto pistol, &c. So why don't they? Well, here are the answers / reasons I've come up with:
- Firearms are dangerous. As in, REALLY dangerous. All non-proficiency penalties for gunpowder-using weapons (including siege weapons) are doubled.
- Individuals proficient in firearm weapons but who do not have Grit, whether by class feature or feat, suffer standard non-proficiency penalties for gunpowder weapons. So taking the proficiency cuts the issues by half, but there's still the misfire chance issue ...
- Misfire chances for non-Grit-possessing individuals are doubled. (Only doubled, not quadrupled for non-feat-possessing individuals. I'm mean, not cruel.)
- Mages have created and widely distributed spells specifically designed to a) locate at Extreme (800 + 80 ft/level) range (2nd level spell, variant on Locate Object) any amount of gunpowder, and b) have a good chance to detonate at Long range ('Rolling Comet', 4th level) large stores of the stuff. These spells are so widely distributed that they are automatic in spellbooks for any spell-memorizing class that can cast them.
This keeps firearms around in the world, but keeps them uncommon and unlikely to overwhelm the rest of the world as they develop further. I do intend on them developing further, from flintlock and percussion-cap rifles into revolvers, pump- and lever-action longarms, and perhaps even up to gatling-style guns. However, because they are hideously dangerous unless you happen to have a PC class (as it were), they'll develop slowly, and never have the same massive effect on the world that firearms have IRL.
That said, ignoring the stuff you can acquire from Mosin-Nagant in Reign of Winger, the majority of PF firearms are simple firearms, found in eight categories: small, standard, large, and multishot pistols; shotguns, longarms, and multishot shotguns/longarms; and heavy armament. What I need to do still is revise the PF weapons to fit into this system (primitive to advanced or modern), then develop the ten 'advanced'-class weapons that have yet to be developed...
--------------
All that said, I gotta admit - a halfling with a ninja version of the 'sniper' thief archetype as well as musket master gunslinger ... whoo!!
All right, sorry for the double-post - I mixed up some information.
A pin-fired cartridge is basically what we now think of as standard bullets, but with a pin sticking out the side. They had to be loaded into their weapons so that the pin would align with the hammer, and were vulnerable to just 'going off' because they got knocked around. They are the precursor to rim-fire cartridges.
What I was thinking of were the paper integral-percussion-cap cartridges fired via a needle-like firing pin that pierced the paper and smacked into the percussion cap, thus setting off the cap, the gunpowder, and bang you've been shot.
For those who don't know what a percussion cap is: it's an interesting mixture of stuff that explodes when hit with a shock, i.e. 'percussion'; this development led to not needing a trail of gunpowder to be lit to set off the round, the percussion cap's miniature explosion doing the job just fine, thank you. This development, while ennabling muzzle-loading weapons to fire reliably in any weather condition, meant an additional item step besides 'get out bullet-and-gunpowder cartridge, tear open powder end of cartridge, dump down barrel, use ramrod to stuff bullet & cartridge paper down barrel in proper direction, remove ramrod, cock, aim, fire'; it meant 'get out cartridge, use ramrod to stuff cartridge down barrel in proper direction, remove ramrod, get out brass percussion cap, place cap over firing nipple, cock, aim, fire'. Which meant it could be a massive pain in the ass.
Which is why an alchemist can say 'screw this' and put the percussion cap (which doesn't actually need to be brass; paper works just fine, which is why paper-roll capguns exist) into the bottom of the paper cartridge and fire it by using - tadaa - a firing pin or, in this case, a needle.
Bang. You've been shot.
Anyhow, to get back to my misunderstanding. Because of what I thought it was (I was confusing the needle-gun paper cartidge concept with 'pin-fired' metal cartridges), it doesn't alter the setup outlined above, just refines what technology goes into which category.
Sorry, had been thinking about it. You're right, wrong place for it.
|
|
So I just discovered a great multi-class with archetypes combo that makes the Mysterious Stranger a *GREAT* archetype.
Swashbuckler - Picaroon, multi'ed with Mysterious Stranger. It gets a Swashbuckler to have all the benefits of a Gunslinger, but since both your panache and your Gunslinger grit are based on Charisma, you can dump Wis, and have Charisma as your high stat. Double-pool! And every time you increase your Charisma modifier, you gain TWO to your combined pool.
The Mysterious Stranger's additional damage based on CHA, since that's now your high stat, becomes really powerful, especially after 11th level, when you can reduce it, plus getting gun training. Lucky helps balance out the fact that you dumped your Wisdom.
I might be wrong here, but I'm almost certain when you add on another pool to an existing one, it doesn't double up the pool, it just grants a +1 to the number of uses. If someone can correct me on that, I'd be more than glad to listen.
It is a pretty nice combination though for a charismatic gunslinger, and Picaroon would be a GREAT multiclass post level 5 for Mysterious Strangers, good call there! I'll have to make a note of that in the description.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there's a dev post somewhere that directly addresses it, but I can't seem to find it right now. I'm pretty sure that in that post one of the Devs stated that you do NOT get double from the same ability score.
The problem is that the rules on the combined pools are unclear and a bit contradictory. The sidebar in the Swashbuckler section of the ACG (as corrected by the Errata) would allow one to get double the Cha bonus with the right archetypes. But the sidebar in the Sleuth archetype (again as corrected by the Errata) specifically states that you wouldn't, but that's only for users of both Panache and Luck because they're both Cha based.
I think the Devs wrote the sidebar on the Swashbuckler page from the assumption that they pools were based on the stats as presented in the standard classes and not an archetype that modifies either the Grit or Panache class feature. Then when they introduced the Luck pool to the mix on the Sleuth page, they wrote a new sidebar that specifically addresses how it interacts with the Cha-based Panache pool.
Based on the wording in the Sleuth sidebar, I think it's safe to say that the Devs intended for those with multiple inputs to the "same heroic pool" to not get double of any one stat's input. But without an FAQ or further errata, the RAW from the two sidebars is that you could get double as long as it's not specifically Luck and Panache.
Grit, Luck, and Panache: Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.)
The gunslinger’s grit and the swashbuckler’s panache represent two paths to gain access to the same heroic pool. Characters with both grit and panache class features combine the two resources together into a larger pool of both grit points and panache points.
|
|
Ok, I know N. Jolly doesn't really cover 3rd party stuff in the guide so I hope I'm not intruding on this thread, and its technically not actually a Gunslinger build, but it seems like a good place to ask.
I came across the Black Powder Hood (henceforth referred to as BPH) archetype, and it seems pretty nice. Especially if you combine it with 3 levels of Trench Fighter (TF).
Seems like another valid way to get a 2-gun wielder up and running. I think TF 3/BPH x would be a pretty solid build, possibly even out-pistolero-ing the pistolero. You get DEX to damage as early as level 4 (you'd likely want to take BPH at lev 1 to get your guns, Gunsmithing, grit, etc), or level 5 if you go BPH2 then TF 3 which is probably better since BPH gives you Rapid Reload at level 2. You also pick up 2 bonus feats from the fighter levels, and by level 6 you've got Bullet Rend, which is sort of equivalent to Up Close and Deadly (better in some ways since it doesn't cost grit, but also with more limitations), and the ability to free-action holster your pistols. On top of that you start picking up some nice Slayer abilities and access to a few more Deeds.
Any thoughts or comments? Or pointers to a more appropriate place to discuss this?
Well my rules is that if a 3P hires me for something, I can include it in my guides, but that's not really relevant here. I'm still up for discussing it, although this section is probably more appropriate.
Looking it over, the real gem here to me is juggling reload since it cuts away about 3-4 feats. I agree that once you picked up gun training from another source, this does make a pretty solid single class, it's a good archetype and honestly if I included it in my guide, it'd probably be high green or even blue. Bullet Rend isn't anything to write home about, but it's already added to the slayer's normal abilities which are pretty solid, so again, I'd recommend this archetype to people who were looking to include some 3P in their games.
If you can't get a 'guns everywhere' from your GM (which if trench fighter's available, I don't see why not), trench is your best option. If you're dead set on using guns, it's easily better than GS 5+, although I think it still pales in comparison to crossbow builds, especially (minotaur) double crossbow builds.
As an aside I have a new build I want to list later once I finish what I'm doing now for the launching crossbow as well as updating this guide to the star rating system I included in my kineticist guide. That should all be happening with in the week, so hopefully it'll all go well!
|
|
Thanks for all your continuing work!
Any thoughts on the gastraphetes for BA builds?
http://archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gastraphe tesAlso, will you be discussing Empty Quiver Style?
I really should include those two things, thanks for the update!
Gassy, Overwatch, and Empty Quiver style have been added!
Bolt Ace's Pinning Sho (****)t has a format error from the stars.
In my opinion kobolds are really good for sniper builds. They are small, and the damage doesn't matter too much because of sneak attack. Also, they get a racial feat that let's them snipe with only a -10 penalty. Thete are rogue talents that do this with a level 10 prerequisite. All is feat takes is ONE rank of stealth. You also can get another feat which let's you move quickly during stealth. Probably my favorite race for snipers. (Of course the kobolds are snipers. "I'll shine from a safe distance thank you very much!")
|
|
In my opinion kobolds are really good for sniper builds. They are small, and the damage doesn't matter too much because of sneak attack. Also, they get a racial feat that let's them snipe with only a -10 penalty. Thete are rogue talents that do this with a level 10 prerequisite. All is feat takes is ONE rank of stealth. You also can get another feat which let's you move quickly during stealth. Probably my favorite race for snipers. (Of course the kobolds are snipers. "I'll shine from a safe distance thank you very much!")
Mind telling me which feat that is? I'm still not a big fan of their adjustments for a lot of reasons, but really, sniper isn't something you can do that great in PF, at least not without some rogue talents.
There's an FAQ that clarifies that the double-barreled musket errata also applies to double-barreled pistols and double-barreled shotguns
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9tqm
Thank you for looking that up so I didn't have to, although I have to admit coldhotshot's name comes dangerously close to Hot Coldman, which would have been quite relevant to the guide.
Ultimate Intrigue has new wrist-mounted crossbows for the Bolt Ace.
UI stuff is going to be added once it's on the PFSRD, as I have a TON of content from that book to add to other things.
Also is there a trend going on, people are posting in my old guides a lot more frequently recently.