Self-explanatory question and discussion. I'm surprised about the several ways one can acquire DR/-, but there are zero abilities, feats, class features, spells, etc. that grant an effect akin to Resistance/All.
Is it because a Resistance/All effect would be too powerful? Is it because no content in the history of Pathfinder ever considered such a concept? Is it because the concept itself cannot be properly displayed (for example, any of the Prismatic spells I find would constitute effects related to Resistance/All)?
So, what's the deal here?
*EDIT*
People misunderstood my question, so I rephrased it.
Everyone has unlimited Resistance/-
Since resistance specifies what you are resistant too, while DR specifies which kind of weapon damage you do not reduce.
All elemental resistances are essentially DR /-.
DR /- subtracts from all physical attacks against the bearer. Fire resist 10 likewise subtracts from all fire attacks against the bearer.
What does not exist is an equivalent to DR /magic or other types of breakable DR. That's why there's no need for a /- after elemental resistances.
Your idea makes absolutely no sense at all.
What is Resistance/-?
Fire Resistance 10 IS effectively DR10/- but only against fire, for example.
Are you talking about something like a pure Element Resistance X, that decreases every form of elemental energy damage (Fire, Electric, Cold, Acid)?
Or something like Magic Damage Resistance X, that decreases all magic damage (including Force, which is crazy because only a few spells block Force Damage)
---
The long and short, if you're talking about the second option: That's way too gnarly; it'd basically reduce positive/negative energy damage, elemental energy damage, sonic damage, force damage, and typeless damage from spells. But what about exceptional abilities (Ex) that do energy damage? Energy Resistance X makes sense, 'cause if something is resistant to Fire, then it'll resistant to all Fire, not just magical Fire.
What about spells like Implosion which do a flat amount of damage/level?
---
Spell Resistance is already a thing, and it's just easier to give something SR(n) than to come up with a really wonky "resistant to all energy/magic damage stuffs" ability.
Do you mean why is there no resistance to all energy types?
I've always viewed it that if you resistance to an energy type you have some sort of affinity with that type of energy. So looking at it like that it makes very little sense to have an affinty to all elements. What kind of creature would that be.
just a thought.
Self-explanatory question and discussion. I'm surprised about the several ways one can acquire DR/-, but there are zero abilities, feats, class features, spells, etc. that grant an effect akin to Resistance/All.
Is it because a Resistance/All effect would be too powerful? Is it because no content in the history of Pathfinder ever considered such a concept? Is it because the concept itself cannot be properly displayed (for example, any of the Prismatic spells I find would constitute effects related to Resistance/All)?
So, what's the deal here?
*EDIT*
People misunderstood my question, so I rephrased it.
Okay, so your idea is what I thought it was.
Because there are way too many types of energy, it doesn't make sense thematically, really, and is kinda too nuts.
DR(n)/- is fine because it only hits physical damage - all types of elemental damage gets through, so spells and even things like a +1 Flaming Longsword, for example, still do damage. The other way around is nuts.
There's Elemental Immunity, Elemental Resistance, Spell Resistance, and Immunities out the wazoo.
There basically isn't a need to Omni-Resistance X
Since positive energy seems to be tied with life and negative energy with undeath, wouldn't this make the character immune to being alive or being undead?
I think the only creature that fits the bill is a dead one that isn't a ghost.
Edit: Checked the books again to make certain.
If you want an example of Resistance 5 (All), then Aasimars and Solars have basically that.
An Aasimar has Acid, Cold, and Electricity Resistance 5, and with a feat can gain Fire Resistance 5. That's pretty darn strong, but giving it Negative Resistance 5, Force Resistance 5, etc. would make it shrug off most spells that damage.
A Solar, as well, has Acid & Cold immunity, and Fire and electricity 10. Needless to say, it's REALLY solid.
Also, there are materials and abilities which can bypass forms of Resistance as well - how those would react with Resistance (All) is... questionable, at best.
Is Resistance (All) identical as Fire Resistance, or is it separate? Does something that overrides Fire Res then bypass Res (All) as well? It's easier to just straight-out separate them into different abilities, or make it unique to a certain monster, like how the Tarrasque is unique among monsters with how impossibly hard it is to kill.
Self-explanatory question and discussion. I'm surprised about the several ways one can acquire DR/-, but there are zero abilities, feats, class features, spells, etc. that grant an effect akin to Resistance/All.
Is it because a Resistance/All effect would be too powerful? Is it because no content in the history of Pathfinder ever considered such a concept? Is it because the concept itself cannot be properly displayed (for example, any of the Prismatic spells I find would constitute effects related to Resistance/All)?
So, what's the deal here?
*EDIT*
People misunderstood my question, so I rephrased it.
Okay, so your idea is what I thought it was.
Because there are way too many types of energy, it doesn't make sense thematically, really, and is kinda too nuts.
DR(n)/- is fine because it only hits physical damage - all types of elemental damage gets through, so spells and even things like a +1 Flaming Longsword, for example, still do damage. The other way around is nuts.
There's Elemental Immunity, Elemental Resistance, Spell Resistance, and Immunities out the wazoo.
There basically isn't a need to Omni-Resistance X
Spell Resistance only applies to certain spells that say they need to pass a Spell Resistance DC. Some spells that are actually spells can still work on enemies that have Spell Resistance/Immunity, i.e. Constructs. Additionally, not all energy-based effects come from spells; Supernatural abilities, Extraordinary abilities, or even simple effects from creatures or the mundane world, like torches, can create "energy damage".
Elemental Resistance and Immunity are special qualities that either reduce certain effects by 50% or negate them entirely, the same that Elemental Vulnerability increases certain effects by 50%, and those are specified to the creature.
Taking your +1 Flaming Longsword concept, and turning it into a dual wield character with a +1 Cold X (doesn't really matter what the other weapon is), a Fire Elemental with Fire Immunity would not be affected by the Longsword's fire damage, though the Longsword's base damage still goes through. It's a two-way street. Saying "it's overpowered" or "isn't needed" is silly when they both function as semi trucks with two completely different supply hauls. By that same logic, DR/- isn't needed either, since there are so many other effects that reduce damage.
If you want an example of Resistance 5 (All), then Aasimars and Solars have basically that.
An Aasimar has Acid, Cold, and Electricity Resistance 5, and with a feat can gain Fire Resistance 5. That's pretty darn strong, but giving it Negative Resistance 5, Force Resistance 5, etc. would make it shrug off most spells that damage.
A Solar, as well, has Acid & Cold immunity, and Fire and electricity 10. Needless to say, it's REALLY solid.
Also, there are materials and abilities which can bypass forms of Resistance as well - how those would react with Resistance (All) is... questionable, at best.
Is Resistance (All) identical as Fire Resistance, or is it separate? Does something that overrides Fire Res then bypass Res (All) as well? It's easier to just straight-out separate them into different abilities, or make it unique to a certain monster, like how the Tarrasque is unique among monsters with how impossibly hard it is to kill.
I don't see how the rules for Damage Reduction can't be extrapolated and thrown into the same light for resistances, where having two separate resistance types would stack together in that you need both (or in the case of resistance, affects both). With that same token, if DR/- applies to all physical attacks, then Resistance/All should apply to all energy damage.
The known energy damage categories are Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative and Positive. Resistance/All would apply to each of those energy categories equally. If a creature has Resistance 5/All, then whenever it is hit by any of those energy damage categories, its damage is 5 less, the same way that a creature that has DR 5/-, whenever it is hit by any physical attack, its damage is 5 less.
There's totally resist (all) X. It's called hardness. Subtracts from all damage.
Was about to say this.
Having a hardness score halves all elemental damage Except cold, though. Cold gets 1/4thed.
1) It isn't needed because everything that would encompass Energy Resistance (All) already exists.
2) It's overpowered because a single ability that gives a flat reduction to all different types of energy, including types that don't really HAVE a resistance against them, is way broader than DR/-, and any creature that had such an ability would have a MAJOR CR bump due to how bulky it would be.
---
What you're not realizing is that there are only 3 different types of physical damage - Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning... well, 5 technically (Falling and Crushing).
DR(n)/- isn't too awful because it's usually kept relatively low, AND because Energy damage of all types still gets through. DR(n)/(type) is often much higher, because only 2 of the 3 different types of physical damage are resisted, plus all energy damage gets through.
On the flip-side, resisting all types of damage BUT three is an extraordinarily powerful ability. One ability makes something resistant to NINE of the 12 types of damage. Give that thing levels in Barbarian and/or Adamantine Armor, and suddenly it resists ALL types of damage, and that is something that becomes pretty darn hard to kill.
Making something resistant to the 4 Elemental Energies isn't too powerful, however, since Force, Positive/Negative, Sonic, and Typeless energy still work. It's still very powerful to have Res against all 4 elements, but it's not completely game breaking.
---
And, again, Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, Cold Resistance, and Electric Resistance all already exist. An ability which combines all four creates a few rules questions. How does it interact with things that make mention of Energy Resistance (type): if an ability increases Fire Resistance by 5, would it also increase the amount of Energy Resistance (All) by 5 total, would it only increase the fire quality, or would it not work at all because Resistance (Fire) is not RAW the same as Resistance (All), etc.
1) It isn't needed because everything that would encompass Energy Resistance (All) already exists.
2) It's overpowered because a single ability that gives a flat reduction to all different types of energy, including types that don't really HAVE a resistance against them, is way broader than DR/-, and any creature that had such an ability would have a MAJOR CR bump due to how bulky it would be.
---
What you're not realizing is that there are only 3 different types of physical damage - Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning... well, maybe 5 technically (Falling and Crushing).
DR(n)/- isn't too awful because it's usually kept relatively low, AND because Energy damage of all types still gets through. DR(n)/(type) is often much higher, because only 2 of the 3 different types of physical damage are resisted, plus all energy damage gets through.
On the flip-side, resisting all types of damage BUT three is an extraordinarily powerful ability.
Making something resistant to the 4 Elemental Energies isn't too powerful, however, since Force, Positive/Negative, and Typeless energy still work. It's still very powerful to have Res against all 4 elements, but it's not completely game breaking.
---
And, again, Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, Cold Resistance, and Electric Resistance all already exist. An ability which combines all four creates a few rules questions - how does it interact with things that make mention of Energy Resistance (type); if an ability increases Fire Resistance by 5, would it also increase the amount of Energy Resistance (All) by 5 total, would it only increase the fire quality, or would it not work at all because Resistance (Fire) is not RAW the same as Resistance (All).
Hardness is a thing that does this.
There are even enemies with it, in the form of animated objects.Some things do ignore hardness, though- so it's resist (all) save admanite, unless the object has 20+hardness, then it's resist (all) save hardness-reducing abilities. (Far and few between)
Hardness is a thing that does this.
There are even enemies with it, in the form of animated objects.
Some things do ignore hardness, though- so it's resist (all) save admanite, unless the object has 20+hardness, then it's resist (all) save hardness-reducing abilities. (Far...
Right, but the power of constructs lies in that they're all tanks. Constructs are effectively vanilla creatures with more resistance than your average creature, but fewer other abilities.
They also lack the ability to be healed by normal means, so that's kind of a problem for them. Also that most of them don't have an intelligence to speak of (or, literally no intelligence).
DR/Adamantine is still better than just a flat "resist everything" - at least then a mundane Adamantine weapon can still start knocking around a Construct's gears.
Giving hardness to, say, a Dragon, with everything else available to it, and you've got one very nasty encounter on your hands.
Plus, doesn't typeless damage still affect them?
Actually, going back and looking it up:
Hardness and Objects' resistance to energy damage is actually coincidental - Hardness itself doesn't halve the damage, and instead it's the fact that something is an Object that causes that Damage Reduction.
Animated Objects are still "objects" and thus retain that energy-resistant quality, again at the cost of being basically a dumb brute Vanilla creature.
Constructs don't automatically gain Hardness, either, and even creatures with the Construct type aren't innately immune to energy damage either.
Behemoth creatures do get Hardness, but they don't get the broad energy resistance, either.
Seems objects, animated or inert, are the only things that flatly cut energy damage in half.
Actually, going back and looking it up:
Hardness and Objects' resistance to energy damage is actually coincidental - Hardness itself doesn't halve the damage, and instead it's the fact that something is an Object that causes that Damage Reduction.
Animated Objects are still "objects" and thus retain that energy-resistant quality, again at the cost of being basically a dumb brute Vanilla creature.
Constructs don't automatically gain Hardness, either, and even creatures with the Construct type aren't innately immune to energy damage either.
Behemoth creatures do get Hardness, but they don't get the broad energy resistance, either.
Seems objects, animated or inert, are the only things that flatly cut energy damage in half.
Animated Objects are creatures. It states this in one of the books.
Having a hardness score halves all elemental damage Except cold, though. Cold gets 1/4thed.
That's from 3.5. That rule no longer exists.
My apologies on the Sonic damage.
1) It isn't needed because everything that would encompass Energy Resistance (All) already exists.
2) It's overpowered because a single ability that gives a flat reduction to all different types of energy, including types that don't really HAVE a resistance against them, is way broader than DR/-, and any creature that had such an ability would have a MAJOR CR bump due to how bulky it would be.
---
What you're not realizing is that there are only 3 different types of physical damage - Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning... well, 5 technically (Falling and Crushing).
DR(n)/- isn't too awful because it's usually kept relatively low, AND because Energy damage of all types still gets through. DR(n)/(type) is often much higher, because only 2 of the 3 different types of physical damage are resisted, plus all energy damage gets through.
On the flip-side, resisting all types of damage BUT three is an extraordinarily powerful ability. One ability makes something resistant to NINE of the 12 types of damage. Give that thing levels in Barbarian and/or Adamantine Armor, and suddenly it resists ALL types of damage, and that is something that becomes pretty darn hard to kill.
Making something resistant to the 4 Elemental Energies isn't too powerful, however, since Force, Positive/Negative, Sonic, and Typeless energy still work. It's still very powerful to have Res against all 4 elements, but it's not completely game breaking.
---
And, again, Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, Cold Resistance, and Electric Resistance all already exist. An ability which combines all four creates a few rules questions. How does it interact with things that make mention of Energy Resistance (type): if an ability increases Fire Resistance by 5, would it also increase the amount of Energy Resistance (All) by 5 total, would it only increase the fire quality, or would it not work at all because Resistance (Fire) is not RAW the same as Resistance (All), etc.
You cited the ones that you found, and I stated that the ones you found can either still be bypassed by one of the same (in the case of Spell Resistance/Immunity), or that it's selective in its choice, and doesn't encompass everything like you claim it does (Elemental Resistance/Immunity).
Additionally, a lot of those subjects that were cited usually fall under the conversion rules of Hardness, in that it cuts whatever damage in half instead of reducing by a set amount like Damage Reduction and Resistance does. On top of that, Damage Reduction applies to more than just damage type. Alignment and Material damage reduction (or even item-specific requirements, like the pre-errata Epic, Vorpal property for the Jabbawock, etc.) are also valid qualifiers for Damage Reduction. DR covers a lot more than you think it does, and is not limited to the simple Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing that you cite.
Quite frankly, throwing a creature that's resistant or immune to all energy damage is an end-game encounter that can probably result in a TPK if the party isn't geared towards it. Such, as you said, is powerful, but also rare, since, you must also consider what else would have that sort of power? Not much, if anything, as evidenced by the lack of content associated with it. After all, the only concept in the PF ruleset that comes close to a Resistance/All mechanic would be each of the Prismatic spells (barring Prismatic Spray, I believe, but even then).
As for the stacking, it's simple, as the answer also lies in the Damage Reduction rules. For example, creatures that have DR 5/Silver and DR/5 Good would count as having DR 5/Silver and Good (or DR 5/Silver or Good, depending on difficulty; most things that low CR would use the or, whereas higher CR creatures would use and). As far as, for example, a DR 10/Adamantine and DR 5/- combo would go, if a creature is not using an Adamantine (or +4) weapon, it would reduce damage by 10. If a creature does meet the DR/Adamantine requirement, it would still be reduced by 5.
In this case, if a creature has Resistance 10/Fire and Resistance 5/All, an enemy that deals Fire damage would have its damage reduced by 10, whereas a creature that deals Cold damage would have its damage reduced by 5.
|
About Hardness:
Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).....
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.
So being a object halves most energy damage but after that hardness is applied against the energy damage, regardless of it being halved or not by the object.
Why leave the energy type effectiveness up to the GM?
Most of them never rule anything in favor of the player characters.
About Hardness:
So having an hardness halves most energy damage but after that hardness is applied against the energy damage, regardless of it being halved or not by the object.
Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).....
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.
No, they're two entirely different things.
The Object being an Object holds a quality which halves energy damage, thus why Energy Attacks are listed under a different section entirely than Hardness.
After this quality halves the energy damage, Hardness is calculated and further reduces the damage dealt, along with physical damage dealt.
If something deals damage to an Object that's not Energy damage (like, say, a sword), you go straight to "Damage - Hardness = damage dealt"
|
|
About Hardness:
So having an hardness halves most energy damage but after that hardness is applied against the energy damage, regardless of it being halved or not by the object.
Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).....
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.
No, they're two entirely different things.
The Object being an Object holds a quality which halves energy damage, thus why Energy Attacks are listed under a different section entirely than Hardness.
After this quality halves the energy damage, Hardness is calculated and further reduces the damage dealt, along with physical damage dealt.
If something deals damage to an Object that's not Energy damage (like, say, a sword), you go straight to "Damage - Hardness = damage dealt"
Right, that is what i did meant, I have written it badly.
If I were GM, I would probably let you research a spell of resist elements. Which would grant resist 5 against acid, cold, electricity, and fire. Say 4th level spell and 10 min each level duration.
A second spell that resisted force and sonic.
A third resisted positive and negative energy.
All 8 energy types would probably be a 6th level spell and just a minute each level duration.
Resistance(all) doesn't seem too OP if its values are simply lowered compared to the same level specific resists. Maybe only 2 points of (all) for every 5 points of (element). And all and element wouldn't stack.
That, and some elements (Sonic) are rather rare, so a resistance to certain ones is not very useful for most characters.
Spellscar oracles can get resistance to acid, cold, fire, electricity, AND sonic. Cast death ward and get a ring of forcefangs and you're as set as you can be, I think.
Prismatic resistance (played alot of Diablo, does it show) could be a thing, but it should be much lower value to compensate for being comprehensive. I would rank Prismatic Resist 5 as equivalent to single element 20. Prismatic 10 as highly as immunity to single. Prismatic 20 to two immunities and one 10+.
I would rule out Prismatic Immunity for any non deity.
Prismatic resistance (resisting fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic, positive, and negative energy types) should be rare but I'd only put pricing it at about 4 times resistance to a single element. This is simply due to how much resistances already cost and how niche some of them are (how often do you encounter sonic and how often do you want to resist positive energy). It'd be feasible to buy on someone whose whole job is absorbing damage but otherwise too expensive. Possibly add feats to get it for magic resistant races(like dwarves and such) but specify that their resistance only applies to magically created energy not say a forest fire.
I also think save bonuses against spells and spell-like abilities should be more common.
I have something similar house ruled into my home games. I have a condition called [Indomitable] which simply causes a creature to take half damage from everything. There are a very few creatures that just have this straight up, but usually it's a temporary benefit granted by meeting a condition (Such as a feat that grants it whenever you take total defense with a heavy or tower shield). It's generally not all that big a deal. Half damage is a different kind of beast than flat reduction in damage, but I just can't see it being so much different that a Universal Resistance would swing to the other extreme and break the game.
I also think save bonuses against spells and spell-like abilities should be more common.Every third character already has +2.
Oh wait, not everybody plays Dwarves as much as me. Silly humans.
The dwarf ability should be a standardized part of monster and class design. Surely more species have that trait besides dwarves, in the magic rich world pathfinder implies.