Legally Commit an Evil Act?


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive

So, in the Player Companion, "Advanced Class Origins", it mentions 2 things that apparently, are legal for play. Red Mantis Assassins, and Killing Helpless people. The Arcanist archetype "Twilight Sage" Eats people's energy rather than spells.

Twilight Sage:

Advanced Class Origins Said wrote:


Consume Life
As a full-round action,the Twilight Sage can constume the life energy of a helpless living creature, killing it.

So, does this mean I can just go around casting sleep on people then eating their childhood memories? I mean, I'd ASSUME that eating someone is illegal in play, considering all cannibal traits are illegal (Except Soul Drinker)...
Furthermore, the Warpriest Archetype "Mantis Zealot" allows people to play as Red Mantis assassins. I thought we hated those guys. This just doesn't make any sense that these would be legal for play. Can someone explain this to me? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to play a Red Mantis assassin or eat memories of grandma's cookies, but I just want to make sure paizo's not gonna be like "Oh yeah, remove those." when I just finish making my character...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

What if that "helpless living creature" is a cow? Is that ability any different than cuttin' up some steaks? Or did you assume it could only be used on people?

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Actually, aside from the evil requirement for Red Mantis Assassins, an argument could be made for the assassins working with the Society.

Commonly known multi-season metaplot spoiler:
Both want Grand Master Torch, after all.


Nothing of what has been listed are Evil Acts the Warpriest archetype(pretty sure what is mean when Red Mantis Assassins are mentioned) states you just have to worship Achaekek who is LE but you can worship Evil gods in PFS(I myself have a Cleric of Lamashtu and Urgathoa) but the only alignment you can be is LN since you need to be within one step.

You can kill Helpless people/creatures all the time with Coup De Grace and it's fine as long as it isn't an innocent person, also you're miss reading the Consume Life ability they need to below 0 hitpoints already so unless you put them to sleep and beat them until they reach that point you can't use Consume Life, also it's just taking their life force and fully killing instead of them bleeding to death.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

You do know that the death knell spell is legal for play, and that at least one of the Tiefling (or is it Aasimar?) variants gets it as their spell like ability?

While new Tiefling variant PCs would require a boon, I am sure there are still a bunch of those grandfathered Tieflings with that ability floating around... I know we have at least one local player with just such a Wizard PC...

5/5

Eh... coup de grace, nor death knell, power class abilities. It is a thematic issue for some people. BTW, unless I am mistaken, there are other ways for a creature to be helpless than being under 0 hitpoints.

I am thinking of playing a twilight arcanist who carries around a sack of bound puppies.....

Grand Lodge 3/5

I would personally use kittens myself......
Besides, they can be used as a distraction in crowded areas.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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So you defeat some goblins, and instead of CdG, you suck out their life force. Waste not, want not. It's surely not a Good act, but too evil for PFS? I dunno.

Qualif wrote:

I would personally use kittens myself......

Besides, they can be used as a distraction in crowded areas.

Make sure you have some photographs of super-cute kittens with you.

You: "I pull out a kitten from my familiar satchel." *shows picture*
Other players: "awww"
You "And then I drink out its life force."

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

...and this is how the Grand Lodge was picketed by PETF--People for the Ethical Treatment of Familiars...

Lantern Lodge 3/5

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Just cause something is legal for play, does not make it inherently good or evil. Its what you/your character does with it that makes it good or evil.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Now I want to make an illusionist who tries to distract monsters with Silent Images of cute kittens...

Sovereign Court 4/5

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Ascalaphus wrote:
Qualif wrote:

I would personally use kittens myself......

Besides, they can be used as a distraction in crowded areas.

Make sure you have some photographs of super-cute kittens with you.

You: "I pull out a kitten from my familiar satchel." *shows picture*
Other players: "awww"
You "And then I drink out its life force."

I'll leave you with this.

5/5

Can't tell if this thread is serious or not, so just in case: The Guide is quite clear: "Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort; there is more than one way to play a given alignment."

Eating puppies for fun falls into that category in my books (as does most of the acts described above). YMMV. If you find a group who wants to play that way, good on you, but expect some people to be offended.

Remember, swords are legal in PFS, but murdering people with them for sport isn't. Use your powers wisely.

Grand Lodge 3/5

Hmm, if I can't eat the kittens...... Maybe I can put them in a handy haversack and throw them at my enemies, a la Crazy Cat Lady from the Simpsons.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Walter Sheppard wrote:
...and this is how the Grand Lodge was picketed by PETF--People for the Ethical Treatment of Familiars...

Holds Sign


ToshiroKurita wrote:

Eh... coup de grace, nor death knell, power class abilities. It is a thematic issue for some people. BTW, unless I am mistaken, there are other ways for a creature to be helpless than being under 0 hitpoints.

I am thinking of playing a twilight arcanist who carries around a sack of bound puppies.....

Yes they can become helpless under different conditions but the Twilight Sage's Consume Life ability only works if they're under 0 hitpoints. It must also have 2 or more HD which I'm sure a puppy doesn't even if they did it'll get to the point where it wouldn't do anything.

Here's the full description of Consume Life for everyone.

Twilight Sage wrote:

Consume Life (Su)

By wresting a soul from life to death, a twilight sage gains a slightly deeper understanding of mortality, fueling her curiosity and eldritch power. As a full-round action, she can consume the life energy of a helpless living creature, killing it.

This creature must have 2 or more Hit Dice and be below 0 hit points. The twilight sage adds 2 points to her arcane reservoir if the creature's Hit Dice equaled or exceeded the sage's character level, or 1 point if the creature's Hit Dice equaled at least 1/2 her character level.

This ability is a death effect.

This ability replaces consume spells.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

So basically, whenever the GM is about to remove downed enemies from the board, you say "wait a moment; there's still some juice in these critters".

Is doing that too evil for PFS? I don't think so, but if it is, then this archetype should be banned because one of its core abilities can't be legally used.

---

As a side note, this ability could be used to kill critters with Regeneration that you lack the tools to overcome.

Scarab Sages

Dread Knight wrote:

.

This creature must have 2 or more Hit Dice and be below 0 hit points. The twilight sage adds 2 points to her arcane reservoir if the creature's Hit Dice equaled or exceeded the sage's character level, or 1 point if the creature's Hit Dice equaled at least 1/2 her character level.

two more more hit dice sounds like an awful big kitten and the only cat I can recall for sale that big would be the combat trained tiger - who might object being made helpless and is probably not cost effective.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now, rabbits, which are adorable, and also, delicious.

As are baby chicks.

Dark Archive

Dread Knight wrote:
You can kill Helpless people/creatures all the time with Coup De Grace

Actually, performing a Coup De Grace versus ANY non-mindless creature is an evil act, so long as they surrendered or are helpless.

Sczarni

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Shasfowd wrote:
Dread Knight wrote:
You can kill Helpless people/creatures all the time with Coup De Grace
Actually, performing a Coup De Grace versus ANY non-mindless creature is an evil act, so long as they surrendered or are helpless.

And from where in the CRB or PFS Guide are you getting this?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Shasfowd wrote:
Dread Knight wrote:
You can kill Helpless people/creatures all the time with Coup De Grace
Actually, performing a Coup De Grace versus ANY non-mindless creature is an evil act, so long as they surrendered or are helpless.

Let's look at the paladin code of Torag:

Inner Sea Gods page 150 wrote:
Against my people's enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag

Also, how are you supposed to CdG non-helpless creatures anyway?

Silver Crusade

There was once an Aspis agent that my party had hit with Hold Person and some kind of acid effect that was doing damage every turn. My magus (who is CG) coup-de-graced him so the poor guy wouldnt have to stand there, slowly burning alive and helpless to do anything about it. Furthermore, the character is from Tian-Xia and considers himself a samurai, so he saw it giving the man an honorable death.

How was that evil?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

ToshiroKurita wrote:

Eh... coup de grace, nor death knell, power class abilities. It is a thematic issue for some people. BTW, unless I am mistaken, there are other ways for a creature to be helpless than being under 0 hitpoints.

I am thinking of playing a twilight arcanist who carries around a sack of bound puppies.....

Death knell is not a class ability, but, since it can increase a caster's caster level. I am fairly sure that could be counted as powering class abilities.

Also beneficial for most melee types, at least at lower levels.

1d8 temporary hit points
+2 enhancement bonus to Strength
Effective caster level +1, increasing spell effects dependent on level.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/55/55/5

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I have the skull of an orc shaman, the eyes of a cat, and the severed hand of a thief. Why is it that the item that draws the most vehement consternation is my silly straw...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I used to raise rabbits.

This, of course, meant killing them, skinning them, and dressing them.


There is a boon which specifically calls itself out as an evil action that can cause an alignment shift if you don't save. Performing an evil act isn't inherently going to make you go evil.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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GM Lamplighter wrote:


Remember, swords are legal in PFS, but murdering people with them for sport isn't. Use your powers wisely.

Right.

Unless they're holding the macguffin we need.
Or have four legs
Or lack bi-lateral symmetry.
Or have looked at Maldris' black book


BigNorseWolf wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:


Remember, swords are legal in PFS, but murdering people with them for sport isn't. Use your powers wisely.

Right.

Unless they're holding the macguffin we need.
Or have four legs
Or lack bi-lateral symmetry.
Or have looked at Maldris' black book

Or attacked the museum.

Or have two legs.
Or have a different color shirt than us.
Or want to study and collect artifacts for personal gains.
Or are greedy and want to kill us for our gear.
Or are Pathfinders... Wait... Only sometimes on this one.
Or are Drug Dealers.
Or Disagree with us on anything.
Or have an artifact.

5/5

But then it's not for sport, is it? (Sometimes it's for something even less defensible, though, like covering up crap for a faction head... but stuff like that isn't evil according to campaign leadership.)

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:


Remember, swords are legal in PFS, but murdering people with them for sport isn't. Use your powers wisely.

Or lack bi-lateral symmetry.

Dont you dare murder Valais!

Grand Lodge 3/5

Or are picking fights with the group that hired you.

Three orphans were made that day, but it was their Pa's fault for starting the fight.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Undone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:


Remember, swords are legal in PFS, but murdering people with them for sport isn't. Use your powers wisely.

Right.

Unless they're holding the macguffin we need.
Or have four legs
Or lack bi-lateral symmetry.
Or have looked at Maldris' black book

Or attacked the museum.

Or have two legs.
Or have a different color shirt than us.
Or want to study and collect artifacts for personal gains.
Or are greedy and want to kill us for our gear.
Or are Pathfinders... Wait... Only sometimes on this one.
Or are Drug Dealers.
Or Disagree with us on anything.
Or have an artifact.

Explosive Runes!:
Or are a Venture Captain.
Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Undone wrote:
There is a boon which specifically calls itself out as an evil action that can cause an alignment shift if you don't save. Performing an evil act isn't inherently going to make you go evil.

Actually, there is at least one boon available that will shift your alignment towards evil, but the scenario makes sure the GM knows that the PC can get an atonement to amend that alignment step and remain legal to play.

What can I say? Other than one of the boons having expired, I have one PC who decided he was Ash Ketchum, gotta get 'em all.

Spoiler:
Yes, I know he has one feat more than he normally should, but it is legal.

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