| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
First off, Unless my mother is a cleric or evil outsider (and assuming she doesn't smell like gravedirt ;) ), GO MOM! :D You've got 5HD?! That's pretty darn impressive.
Second, I continue with my life and don't treat her any different, that is, provided that she pings evil, but has always just been a devoted, loving mother.
After all, alignment only represents a character's morality, not whether they are willing to act, based on said morality :]
-Nearyn
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.
Unless fighting a greater Evil requires associating with your mother, you can never spend extended periods of time with her.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, firstly we can at least be happy for the paladin that his career is not in danger based on his associates, since it is not part of his code. Even if we look at the full text
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Secondly, I don't think being your mother's son counts as adventuring with/working with someone. Nor are you encouraged to smite the wicked woman :P
Even if we assume the Paladin is actually adventuring with his mother, why would he give a rat's ass that she pings evil? It's not like there are any consequences for associating with evildoers. At worst it's considered bad form, but if the woman pings evil, yet remains his loving mother and doesn't actually act evil, then why would the paladin have cause to act? :)
He would not.
-Nearyn
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Suppose you are playing a Paladin and your character's mother pings as evil. What do you do?
I use Smite on the GM.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, firstly we can at least be happy for the paladin that his career is not in danger based on his associates, since it is not part of his code. Even if we look at the full text
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.Secondly, I don't think being your mother's son counts as adventuring with/working with someone. Nor are you encouraged to smite the wicked woman :P
Even if we assume the Paladin is actually adventuring with his mother, why would he give a rat's ass that she pings evil? It's not like there are any consequences for associating with evildoers. At worst it's considered bad form, but if the woman pings evil, yet remains his loving mother and doesn't actually act evil, then why would the paladin have cause to act? :)
He would not.
-Nearyn
Did you read what we both just quoted? It's part of the code of conduct. Breaking the code means you fall. If he associates with his mother for any reason besides defeating a greater Evil, he falls.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nononononooooo~~~
Do NOT make that mistake. Who the paladin can assocaite with IS NOT part of the paladin code of conduct. The two are completely seperate entries in the Paladin-class.
You cannot logically tie the two together any more than you can consider the Code of Conduct a part of the Holy Champion(Su) power.
-Nearyn
.No, you are actually separating elements where there is no separation.
.
.
.
.
--------------------------------------------------------
A paladin must blah blah blah.
Associates: blah blah blah.
--------------------------------------------------------
A paladin who ceases to blah blah blah.
Associates clause is a sub-set of the Code, not a new section. New sections have bigger titles and underlines.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You are plain incorrect DominusMegadeus, I'm sorry to say. I'll make the effort and provide a screenshot, gimme a second.
EDIT:
Here you go Screenshot from the CRB
The exact same font, written in the exact same way as every other entry in the class. They are two seperate entries. Associates is no more a part of Code of Conduct, than Code of Conduct is a part of Holy Champion.
If Associates WAS a sub-set of Code of Conduct it would have said.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
A paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Additionally, while she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
But I have already provided you with the screenshot, so I don't know why I bothered typing that last part.
-Nearyn
Why would they need an atonement spell if there was no threat of falling?
There oughta be a FAQ, I tell ya hwat.
I think the reason they say you should seek out an atonement spell is that paladins should ideally not surround themselves with evildoers, and if they do, it would be flavourful and feel "right"(?) if they sought out atonement for having to do so.
But there is already plenty of consequence for the Paladin in the Associates rule: you'll notice that the rule prevents them from making use of non-LG henchmen, followers, and cohorts. That is the ACTUAL impact on the Paladin class that that rule has.
There is no consequence for associating with evil, it is merely bad form, and you'll probably want to atone for it. Why you would want to atone for it, I'd argue is completely up to you. Maybe you feel like you're risking tarnishing the name of your order a bit? (like a cop being seen talking to a known gangster may tarnish the name of his department?). Or for any number of reasons.
Point remains however that there is no consequence for associating with evil, outside of GM Fiat.
-Nearyn
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shouldn't it be step-mother rather than mother?
How about trying to redeem your mother?
I'd consider that a valid reason to associate with an evil character.
You are not fighting a greater Evil. You are fighting an equal Evil.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are not fighting a greater Evil. You are fighting an equal Evil.How about trying to redeem your mother?
I'd consider that a valid reason to associate with an evil character.
Wouldn't that depend on how mean your mother is? O.o
-Nearyn
You are not fighting a greater Evil. You are fighting an equal Evil.How about trying to redeem your mother?
I'd consider that a valid reason to associate with an evil character.
Wouldn't that depend on how mean your mother is? O.o
-Nearyn
The Evil you are 'fighting' by redeeming your mother is herself. Your Mother = Your Mother. Not a greater Evil than the one you are working with.
The Evil you are 'fighting' by redeeming your mother is herself. Your Mother = Your Mother. Not a greater Evil than the one you are working with.You are not fighting a greater Evil. You are fighting an equal Evil.How about trying to redeem your mother?
I'd consider that a valid reason to associate with an evil character.
Wouldn't that depend on how mean your mother is? O.o
-Nearyn
Hhmmmm, but what if your mother's redemption would mean a great triumph for good? Like you're telling an inverse version of the story of Faust? :P
That'd be a great story, I think. I'd at least have fun with it as a player or GM. A paladin is so outclassed by his opponent (who just happens to be his mother), that he decides to travel with her and act as the angel on her shoulder, chipping away at the evil around her heart even as she subdues a nation :D
Nah, but I'm just having some fun before leaving the thread. I've provided opinion and RAW, so there's not alot else for me to do here XD
-Nearyn
You're all good, man. I always thought it was just assumed universally that it was part of the code. I would like to see some Dev comment on it, but I might just be the odd man out. Have a good one.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you make a FAQ thread to clear it up, PM me, and I'll drop by and leave a click.
A good one to you, as well :]
-Nearyn
+1 to every post made by Nearyn, pretty much.
Also, love your mama. :)
As a sidenote... why did said paladin choose to detec evil on his mother?
It's not an always-on power, It either requieres an extended concentration period, or to explicitly focus on her... Neither of those happens by accident during a family meal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe she happened to be in the cone when he pinged it out.
Maybe he was just bored and wanted to see what happened.
"Hey ma, check out what I can do!" eyes flash with holy light, mom's darkness is revealed.
"Oh my god."
"Son this isn't what it looks like. I just cast Infernal Healing on myself, I swear!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Young paladin just developed his auric senses and is trying them everywhere to get accustomed. His mother being a 5HD former hellknight pings and leads him to be alarmed and confused...
Adventure and plot ensues.
|
lmao oi vey for some odd reason while reading each post i was reading them in the voice of Foamy the squirrel XD lol, but on topic, its hard to say what to do, do you kill your evil mother or let her live, if you kill her your a cold heartless bastard, if you dont you letting evil escape judgement, these choices is why i dont play paladins! i much rather go warpriest (the way i see paladin could have been) and worship who ever i darn well like, heck then me and Ma could go butchering a town together a real mother son moment *wipe a tear away* so beautiful
Woo!! i am far too awake at 5am!! :D lol
Suppose you are playing a Paladin and your character's mother pings as evil. What do you do?
Come to the realization that I'm adopted. " You're not my real mom!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paladin falls.
The paladin always falls.
If you let evil exist unmolested that can be considered an evil act. Not honoring your mother is not acting with honer. You fall.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh my Gods Nearyn is right they're separate entries.
*mind blown*
You would need to determine what is causing the evil alignment. Is she simply a corrupt investment banker, willing to swindle money from anyone to keep the family coffers full? Does she delight using light weights for her stand at the food market? Is she the mayor, turning a blind eye to anyone who pays enough? Or, is she the masked terror, murdering people in the streets at night?
Either way, you should talk to her, treating her with honor as a legitimate parental authority over you and go from there.
You may want to keep smite up ... just in case ... ;-)
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Evil you are 'fighting' by redeeming your mother is herself. Your Mother = Your Mother. Not a greater Evil than the one you are working with.You are not fighting a greater Evil. You are fighting an equal Evil.How about trying to redeem your mother?
I'd consider that a valid reason to associate with an evil character.
Wouldn't that depend on how mean your mother is? O.o
-Nearyn
Ah, but evil souls get judged and sent to Hell/The Abyss/Abaddon and over time become Evil Outsiders
Your Evil Mom is a lesser evil than the Devil she will eventually become in the afterlife. Therefore redeeming her is fighting a greater evil.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You would need to determine what is causing the evil alignment. Is she simply a corrupt investment banker, willing to swindle money from anyone to keep the family coffers full? Does she delight using light weights for her stand at the food market? Is she the mayor, turning a blind eye to anyone who pays enough? Or, is she the masked terror, murdering people in the streets at night?Maybe she's secretly a vampire .... or a mime!!!
Even worse, a clown.
|
First I will cast protection from evil onto her, granting her another save.
Second I will ask my wizard (or sorcerer) buddy to identify what foul magic has befallen her and ask them to cast dispel magic if my protection from evil did not break the spell.
If both things fail and my friend assures me that there is no spell on my mother, well, there are three options:
1) I am aware that my mother is evil. It might even be the reason why I became a paladin - to bring good into the world to balance out her evil. This may or may not imply that my mother was directing this evil towards me (by abusing me, for example) or towards others while being a loving mother towards me (everybody know this one person who is an a*+!$$@ to everybody except his/her friends, right? That, only as a mother).
This raises the question why I even bothered trying to break any spell, but hey.
2) My mother was evil all along, hiding it from me.
Ignoring the fact that her upbringing probably would not result in paladin I will try to redeem her and make a better person out of her.
3) My mother turned evil while I was away. I will try to find out what caused it (= follow the obvious questhook), resolve the cause and work with her to redeem her.
We have to remember that the spells detects evil intent. Your mother could be Lawful Good but if she's intending to kill the man that raped her all those years ago ( and had you!), then she'd be pinging as evil at that moment.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We have to remember that the spell detects evil intent.
It doesn't just do that, though. It also detects the tiefling who is travelling on an urgent mission of Utter Good. It detects the reformed criminal, who has yet to work off his debt to society.
Detect EvilYour mother could be Lawful Good but if she's intending to kill the man that raped her all those years ago ( and had you!), then she'd be pinging as evil at that moment.
Leaving aside that many would not consider 'hunting down and inflicting lethal force on a criminal' to be an evil act anyway (since that's what Good PCs are actually expected and encouraged to DO, in every published adventure for over 40 years), then even if it were to be strangely designated as an evil thing to do, in defiance of every precedent, but if she were LG, then by definition, it's already been established that the balance of good deeds done in her life have far outweighed any potential evil in her vengeance.
So she could ask for a second opinion from the local Inquisitor, who would declare her LG, and tell everyone that the paladin is a liar.The spell detects any net negative balance of karma on the good/evil axis, in addition to current motivation.
This, in addition to failing to detect sources under the 5HD threshold, and the possibility of false positives for non-evil tieflings/etc, makes it a poor solution to any crime-solving scenario.
Which is a good thing for the game, for play balance, narrative style, and in-world verisimilitude (it explains why the spell/ability results aren't admissible in court, and ensures the PCs have to search for evidence, rather than line everyone against a wall and be scanned by the local paladin).
|
|
Which is a good thing for the game, for play balance, narrative style, and in-world verisimilitude (it explains why the spell/ability results aren't admissible in court, and ensures the PCs have to search for evidence, rather than line everyone against a wall and be scanned by the local paladin).
That would be an awesome dystopia, though. You could purchase "hide alignment" potions on the black market, would try your best to not think evil thoughts when outside...
Well, best just do what everyone expects. Massacre evil mom without another word, do horrible things to her corpse and, since they may be evil too, slaughter the entire village.
Then whine a lot about how the world is unfair and how it's not your fault, and become an antipaladin instead.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
Nearyn is right, above, that the association clause is a separate matter from the Code, but even if it wasn't, it should still be a matter for common sense application.
Paladins are not required to scan every single person they come into contact with, do business with, or ally with.
The fact that it doesn't work on the majority of people is good enough reason for that.
They should be sensitive to behaviour that offends their beliefs, and if they witness it or see evidence of it, either act to prevent it, or remove themselves from any complicity in it. Neither of which requires they draw a weapon and start swinging.
It could be as simple as taking the evidence to a higher authority, taking a victim to a safe house, or laying down a warning to a wrongdoer that their actions have to cease.
It seems it's yet another one of those tools certain GMs like to use as a 'Gotcha!', to screw with a player, instead of have an adult conversation about expectations before the game begins.
"You bought a new sword at the market? HA! Guess what?! The guy who runs the armoury was evil! WHOO HOO! You associated with him! YOU LOSE YOUR POWERS! EAT IT!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is actually a really interesting and dramatic scenario, but it's tough to say what the right course of action is without more information. Long before we reach the discussion on the association clause, there are a number of basic facts we need to know before passing judgement.
If the woman had 5 or more hit dice, she's obviously a powerful influence in the community and it could well be her influence has corrupted her.
Detecting someone's alignment, however, is different from establishing guilt. I can't see why so many people struggle with this concept. Paladins dedicate their lives to justice -- and that doesn't mean punishing people for what they might do.
So upon discovering that someone of your own kin is detecting as evil, a proper paladin has a few responsibilities. First, entertain the possibility that your divination is being deceived somehow. (Heck, that doubt should be the basis for seeking evidence of guilt in ALL cases)
Then, if the detected evil is known to be involved in anything untoward, you as a paladin should look into it. But, given your attachment to the situation, you were probably already aware of this, right?
I'd really like to know more about the specifics, though.
EDIT: Alternatively, I Smite her with my Sword!
The spell detects any net negative balance of karma on the good/evil axis, in addition to current motivation.
It's just as weird to think that you can live a life of exemplary morality, then actually outright crack on day and turn pure evil, at which point (since you hadn't murdered any babies... yet) you would still register as good?
Oh alignment.
To think that for a few centuries a large part of the world actually took these discussions as legitimate interpretations of reality...
To think that in my country, large segments of the population still do.
(I still play with alignment though. All you need is a mutual understanding the with the GM, and all these edge cases are completely irrelevant)
|
Suppose you are playing a Paladin and your character's mother pings as evil. What do you do?
This being the generic gamer talk board, even though everybody seems to be discussing this question through the lens of Pathfinder, since I play 2nd Edition AD&D, the answer to the question for me is very different because:
Any association with an evil-aligned character can be construed as an evil act. In general, a paladin bears responsibility for the actions of his associates, even those taken without his knowledge or consent.
...
Because he is duty-bound to suppress evil, a paladin won't tolerate an evil PC. He may take the evil PC into custody, physically restrain him, or demand his expulsion from the party. If all else fails, the paladin severs his ties with the party and go his own way. In any event, inaction is unacceptable.
...
A paladin walks on shaky ground, however, the moment he begins an association with an evil NPC that could be perceived as friendly or compliant.
So, it would seem our paladin would need to at the very least, sever his ties to dear old ma, lest he risk placing his status as a paladin in jeopardy...
And just for the record, an evil act (in 2nd Edition AD&D) carries with it the penalty of an immediate loss of the paladin's status:
Even a single evil violation results in the immediate and irrevocable loss of the paladin's status. He forfeits all benefits, powers, and privileges associated with the paladin class, none of which may be restored by magic or any other means. From that point on, the character exists as a fighter.
...
If a paladin commits an evil act while enchanted or controlled by magic, he immediately loses his paladin status and becomes a fighter as described above. However, because the evil act wasn't intentional, the status loss is temporary. To regain his status, the character must complete a dangerous quest or important mission on behalf of his government, church, or mentor.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Suppose you are playing a Paladin and your character's mother pings as evil. What do you do?
And...?
What exactly is the problem? If I'm a paladin, I've oathed to not consult with her. She's likely a large reason towards making that oath. I may have even become a paladin as an excuse to avoid my family...