I'm looking to make a badass sword and board character, akin in fighting style to Heathcliff from the anime Sword Art Online. The problem is that such characters tend not to be optimal when compared to two-handers and the like, much less on anime level of prowess.
How would you recommend I accomplish such a concept? What classes and options would I need to take, what's the minimum level to make the concept work well?
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I'd actually consider going Paladin or Cleric/Fighter (Maybe Cavalier 2 with Order of the Star instead of Fighter) into Holy Vindicator. If you wield a Tower Shield, you get the absolute highest shield bonus in the game with Vindicator's Shield combined with it, which screams Heathcliff. The truth is that you'd only need a single level of Holy Vindicator, so you could go full Paladin with only a single level of Holy Vindicator, even though the other abilities are pretty darn cool.
Heck, the Sacred Shield archetype for Paladin is practically BUILT for this kind of concept. I mean, talk about support orientation, too. Combine the abilities with the FURTHER ability to buff your shield, and things just get crazy, though you lose Channel Positive energy, so you couldn't take Holy Vindicator, and you lose Smite Evil. I'm a bigger fan of Holy Vindicator myself, but that's just me. It lets you keep smite evil, which means you can still do reasonable damage when you come up against big bads. Just make sure that if you take the Sacred Shield archetype, you pick up Warrior of the Holy Light archetype for the extra buffs and Lay on Hands uses.
At least that's how I'd do it.
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It is odd how iconic sword and board is in fantasy and history; and how relatively weak it is in Pathfinder.
We could use a Shields Unleashed book.
In the video, he appears to be shield bashing and fighting in heavy armor.
So maybe Ranger with Weapon and Shield style for TWF and Shield Master without Prereqs. Probably Skirmisher for a nifty trick, like Upending Strike. Probably dip a level in Fighter for the Heavy Armor and more feats.
my two coppers
cheers
I'm surprised not a single person is recommending taking much int he way of fighter. It seems like it would be a feat intensive build.
I'm surprised not a single person is recommending taking much int he way of fighter. It seems like it would be a feat intensive build.
Maybe because the ranger can get those feats through the right combat style. Maybe just because people don't like fighters.
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I'm just here to say that SAO is one of the best anime around.
I cosplayed Klein at Fanime last year.
A fat Klein. Because I'm a fatty.
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I agree. It is easily one of my favorite anime series.
Looking into the ranger path at the moment. Would he not lose his Combat Style feats in heavy armor? Would mithral full plate allow him to keep them I wonder?
Yes, mithral fullplate would be ok with the combat style, which is what he looked like he was wearing in the vid. With Endurance, he could sleep in it, too.
Starting Fighter at 7th let's him start taking those cool BAB +6 feats like Lunge.
Had you considered going Warpriest? Haven't had a chance to get too deep into the ACG yet... but one of my friends practically swears by the class.
You get almost as many bonus feats as the Fighter, some spell-casting similar to the Cleric, it seems to me that it allows you to quickly and cleanly pick up most of the necessary capabilities for effective Sword & Boarding.
Just my thoughts, but use the class's Focus Weapon ability to pick up Weapon Focus (Shield), use Bonus Feats to pick any Shield oriented feats you feel are necessary. By taking Weapon Focus (Shield) you can use your Sacred Weapon ability to increase its damage, and depending on your deity still have your weapon affected by it. To maximize your combat capability consider the Protection and Strength Blessings.
Not an expert, but this is just my thoughts off-hand.
From what I saw, it looked like his shield is big enough to qualify as a tower shield. Which leads me to think that a build based on this character should have about 5 levels of the Tower Shield Specialist fighter archetype. Not being familiar with Sword Art Online I can't really provide more input than that.
Just going to point out, SAO was specifically a No Magic game. If you wanna keep that spirit, you have to dump pally and ranger, as well as others. This leaves you with Fighter and Barbarian and Swashbuckler. Of those 3, only the Fighter is even close to Heathcliff.
Heathcliff used a flaming sword, so I'm not too concerned about that.
From what I saw, it looked like his shield is big enough to qualify as a tower shield. Which leads me to think that a build based on this character should have about 5 levels of the Tower Shield Specialist fighter archetype. Not being familiar with Sword Art Online I can't really provide more input than that.
I'll have a look at the archetype, but I never really saw it as being a tower shield. For one thing, he bashed with it too much.
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Two weapon warrior archetype of fighter does well. Its super feat intensive but can be done. If you go this route avoid cleave and grab bull rush instead. Heathcliff was the guilds main tank. Take away his Immoral object hack he is simple a heavy armored sword and board fighter.
Also the ranger is another solid choice but sadly you lack heavy armor with ranger.
I'll have a look at the archetype, but I never really saw it as being a tower shield. For one thing, he bashed with it too much.
While it's true that he used it for offense just as much as defense, to me the shield is simply too big to be a heavy shield. In my mind a heavy shield would be more like Link's Hylian Shield or Captain America's in size rather than something as big as Heathcliff's. A light shield meanwhile would only be somewhat larger than a buckler. Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject and it's perfectly fine if you disagree.
Warder from dreamscarred press' Path of War. Maybe the Warlord archetype that gets Iron Tortoise. (Vanguard? Something like that.) Both are on the d20pfsrd
It fits perfectly.
Standard Pathfinder is bad at high-level sword and board characters, as you noticed yourself.
If you can't do third-party, cavalier might work. Ignore all the mount-related stuff and use challenge+TWF.
I'd go against the current and say Cavalier. Challenge sounds really too much thematic for him. And after all he was a tank type not a dps type in SAO. Challenge help you keep good damage with 1h, especially if you start also bashing.
OFC you can spin the cavalier in many flavors. I like samurai(ronin), but daring champion is a powerhouse and fits the type a lot (you can just ditch the nimble and go heavy armor).
I've always thought of Captain America's shield as being rather small, HenshinFanatic.
That seems like a great idea, Dekalinder, but working around all of the limitations is going to be really tough.
Alright, here is my first attempt: Heathcliff, the blood knight, a cold and calculating military leader. (Inspired by the anime character of the same name, not necessarily meant to be the anime character of the same name.)
Though not as powerful as some of the proposed builds probably could be, I think this version utilizes a number of cool class abilities that represent what we see in the anime very well, from him being able to bull rush effectively to parrying and countering to being able to sidestep otherwise certain attacks. He is also capable of holding a monster's attention while his soldiers flank for monumental damage. He also has the face skills to be a real leader of men.
I originally started with a longsword and Slashing Grace, but half way through the creation process, I recalled that even with that feat and Weapon Finesse he couldn't add his Dexterity to his attack rolls, which kind of defeated the whole point. Slashing Grace is ridiculous as it stands and needs to be fixed. For now, I've given him a rapier and Fencing Grace instead.
Though that was a bit of a downer, I nevertheless like the idea of the character being able to arrogantly toss aside his shield and actually end up being more dangerous as a result (since he can then add precise strike damage on top of his challenge damage while remaining essentially untouchable).
What do you guys think?
Does not precise strike requires a free hand?
That, or a buckler. Either method works.
Note that the numbers accurately reflect this, as precise strike is not included in the sheet's stats whilst he is wielding his shield.
Though I'm liking this character so far, I can't say I'm a fan of the swashbuckler class any longer. There's just too many unnecessary restrictions that ensure every swashbuckler comes out as the same old cookie-cutter model.
Do you think that such a character wouldn't function well at lower levels?
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I originally started with a longsword and Slashing Grace, but half way through the creation process, I recalled that even with that feat and Weapon Finesse he couldn't add his Dexterity to his attack rolls, which kind of defeated the whole point. Slashing Grace is ridiculous as it stands and needs to be fixed. For now, I've given him a rapier and Fencing Grace instead.
Slashing Grace works if you have Swashbuckler's Finesse or Champions Finesse, since both abilities give you weapon finesse with any light or one handed piercing weapon, not just normal finesse weapons.
Because Slashing Grace grants you dex to damage AND the ability to treat the weapon as a one handed piercing weapon for the purpose of class abilities, you can use your Champions Finesse with the longsword if you take slashing grace with it.
Unless that archetype allow for an exception, you can't normally bash with a buckler at all. In any case, it's too far a departure from the concept that I'm going for, for my taste.
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Unless that archetype allow for an exception, you can't normally bash with a buckler at all. In any case, it's too far a departure from the concept that I'm going for, for my taste.
It does allow you to bash with a buckler, that's why I brought it up. But if the shield is too small for concept, I dig it.
I'll have a look at the archetype, but I never really saw it as being a tower shield. For one thing, he bashed with it too much.While it's true that he used it for offense just as much as defense, to me the shield is simply too big to be a heavy shield. In my mind a heavy shield would be more like Link's Hylian Shield or Captain America's in size rather than something as big as Heathcliff's. A light shield meanwhile would only be somewhat larger than a buckler. Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject and it's perfectly fine if you disagree.
I think you have to try to divorce the stylistic choices made in the art from the functionality.
In anime (and some comics and some games like WoW), swords and shields and similar items are shown to be outlandishly large. But I don't think the art department for SAO thought of or intended Heathcliff's shield to "count-as" or symbolize a tower shield. I think they just wanted him to look badass.
Similarly, look at the shields belonging to some of the units in the Protectorate of Menoth faction for Warmachine, particularly their paladins and similar solos. They also have enormous-looking shields, meant to appear oversized for emphasis, but they aren't tower shields.
It's a matter of style, but it does not replace the function.
Just out of curiosity, after having left the discussion I decided to try and find Paizo's stance on what exactly constitutes a heavy shield versus a tower shield.
So I got the official pre-gen stats for Seelah the iconic paladin off of the Pathfinder Society page. Her shield is officially classed as a wooden heavy shield. The whole time I had it pegged as a tower shield. That's close enough for government work to change my mind and accept that Heathcliff's shield is a heavy shield. Now I wonder how big a tower shield is that makes it so much more cumbersome than a heavy shield.
If you get access to the cleric spell stoneshield then you could refluff it to be his immediate action time freezing parry.
A Slayer running Sword and Shield combat style.
That will take care of your ability to contribute with damage.
The number of skill points the Slayer gets will help you roleplay without relying on untrained rolls.
If you go with third party classes the Warder from Dreamscarred Press Path of War will automatically turn you into Heathcliff.
Dot. As one who did a Kirito Conversion a while back(TWW Fighter), this interests me.
My only contribution would be to perhaps consider Mythic Tiers. That is what I ended up doing with Kirito's. In which case, Guardian seems a pretty clear cut choice imo.
Running Kirito as a TWF Warlord would actually work pretty well in emulating a lot of his feats without busting out mythic tiers. Working into the Dragon Fury PrC ASAP would make a perfect Kirito and be super cool.
I'm not too interested in 3rd party rules, and I don't feel that mythic is necessary to represent the fighting style (though it would be a good way to represent just how unstoppable the anime character Heathcliff actually was). I may do a quick-build using slayer just to see how it turns out.
Alright, here is my first attempt: Heathcliff, the blood knight, a cold and calculating military leader. (Inspired by the anime character of the same name, not necessarily meant to be the anime character of the same name.)
Though not as powerful as some of the proposed builds probably could be, I think this version utilizes a number of cool class abilities that represent what we see in the anime very well, from him being able to bull rush effectively to parrying and countering to being able to sidestep otherwise certain attacks. He is also capable of holding a monster's attention while his soldiers flank for monumental damage. He also has the face skills to be a real leader of men.
I originally started with a longsword and Slashing Grace, but half way through the creation process, I recalled that even with that feat and Weapon Finesse he couldn't add his Dexterity to his attack rolls, which kind of defeated the whole point. Slashing Grace is ridiculous as it stands and needs to be fixed. For now, I've given him a rapier and Fencing Grace instead.
Though that was a bit of a downer, I nevertheless like the idea of the character being able to arrogantly toss aside his shield and actually end up being more dangerous as a result (since he can then add precise strike damage on top of his challenge damage while remaining essentially untouchable).
What do you guys think?
You sir, have managed to make me interested in the cavalier class - I have never managed to wrap my head around it before to match my character ideas.
it's a nice build, I love how it's not a combination of 4 different clases and a pile of obscure rules to work.Good work! :)