twilight sage arcanist archetype should be banned

[thistledown]

The signature ability of the twilight sage archetype is Consume Life. Using consume life is an evil act.

Consume Life:

Consume Life (Su): By wresting a soul from life to death, a twilight sage gains a slightly deeper understanding of mortality, fueling her curiosity and eldritch power. As a full-round action, she can consume the life energy of a helpless living creature, killing it. This creature must have 2 or more Hit Dice and be below 0 hit points. The twilight sage adds 2 points to her arcane reservoir if the creature’s Hit Dice equaled or exceeded the sage’s character level, or 1 point if the creature’s Hit Dice equaled at least 1/2 her character level.
This ability is a death effect. This ability replaces consume spells.

Sucking the soul out of a helpless target to refuel your own power sounds pretty evil to me. A bit like some wafers that I can remember.

Also, no-save instant death? And it doesn't list the range...

[Undone]

I think it's allowed because the souls of monks taste like chocolate, I hear Mike likes chocolate.

On a serious note yeah wow. I'm kinda surprised that is legal.

[RainyDayNinja]

It's not necessarily evil, for instance if it's used against vermin, plants, animals, or evil outsiders.

Whether it's evil to use it on intelligent humanoids and the like is up for interpretation, but even if it is, evil acts are not banned. It should probably be treated the same as using an [evil] spell, such as death knell.

On the other points, I'm guessing the range is supposed to be touch. And given the conditions to pull it off, it's essentially just a magic coup-de-grace.

[Jiggy]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

And given the conditions to pull it off, it's essentially just a magic coup-de-grace.

It's actually even more restrictive than a CdG, since the target has to be below 0HP. You can CdG a victim of a hold person spell or other paralyzing effect, but you can't use this on them until you've already defeated them by conventional means.

Yet I estimate we'll still get around 3-4 more people crying "omg instant death!" Anyone want to start a pool? I'll put my money on 3.

;)

[The Great Rinaldo!]

I agree with RDN, it is a potentially evil act based on how and when it is used, and should be adjudicated the same as a coup de grace on a helpless creature.

[Game Master]

Killing people is not (necessarily) an evil act. Killing downed opponents is not (necessarily) an evil act. It's just a magical coup de grace with even more severe limitations.

If coup de grace is allowed, this is not even close to worse.

thistledown wrote:

A bit like some wafers that I can remember.

And those wafers are banned in PFS, yes? Oh wait... no, they're the focus of an entire scenario and explicitly appear on a chronicle sheet. Bad example.

And the Twilight Sage doesn't consume the soul, just the life energy. Vampiric touch isn't an evil act - it's consuming life energy. Sigil Wafers explicitly state that the soul is consumed.

Death knell is also legal and used frequently. There's no case for banning the Twilight Sage.

[Gwen Smith]

Undone wrote:

I think it's allowed because the souls of monks taste like chocolate, I hear Mike likes chocolate.

On a serious note yeah wow. I'm kinda surprised that is legal.

mmmmm...chocolate souls...

I like the Martial Artist ones the best. Those non-lawful monks have crunchy bits.

[kinevon]

Game Master wrote:

Killing people is not (necessarily) an evil act. Killing downed opponents is not (necessarily) an evil act. It's just a magical coup de grace with even more severe limitations.

If coup de grace is allowed, this is not even close to worse.

thistledown wrote:

A bit like some wafers that I can remember.

And those wafers are banned in PFS, yes? Oh wait... no, they're the focus of an entire scenario and explicitly appear on a chronicle sheet. Bad example.

And the Twilight Sage doesn't consume the soul, just the life energy. Vampiric touch isn't an evil act - it's consuming life energy. Sigil Wafers explicitly state that the soul is consumed.

Death knell is also legal and used frequently. There's no case for banning the Twilight Sage.

IIRC, one of the Tiefling alternate races, that used to be open access, gets Death Knell as a spell-like ability....

[Tsriel]

Pretty much every necromancer build ever, regardless of class, would disagree with the OP on this one. It's macabre, but not any different from options that others have pointed out.

[Jeff Merola]

kinevon wrote:

Game Master wrote:

Killing people is not (necessarily) an evil act. Killing downed opponents is not (necessarily) an evil act. It's just a magical coup de grace with even more severe limitations.

If coup de grace is allowed, this is not even close to worse.

thistledown wrote:

A bit like some wafers that I can remember.

And those wafers are banned in PFS, yes? Oh wait... no, they're the focus of an entire scenario and explicitly appear on a chronicle sheet. Bad example.

And the Twilight Sage doesn't consume the soul, just the life energy. Vampiric touch isn't an evil act - it's consuming life energy. Sigil Wafers explicitly state that the soul is consumed.

Death knell is also legal and used frequently. There's no case for banning the Twilight Sage.

IIRC, one of the Tiefling alternate races, that used to be open access, gets Death Knell as a spell-like ability....

It does. My alchemist would have that if I hadn't swapped it for a bite attack.

[kinevon]

Jeff Merola wrote:

kinevon wrote:

Game Master wrote:

Killing people is not (necessarily) an evil act. Killing downed opponents is not (necessarily) an evil act. It's just a magical coup de grace with even more severe limitations.

If coup de grace is allowed, this is not even close to worse.

thistledown wrote:

A bit like some wafers that I can remember.

And those wafers are banned in PFS, yes? Oh wait... no, they're the focus of an entire scenario and explicitly appear on a chronicle sheet. Bad example.

And the Twilight Sage doesn't consume the soul, just the life energy. Vampiric touch isn't an evil act - it's consuming life energy. Sigil Wafers explicitly state that the soul is consumed.

Death knell is also legal and used frequently. There's no case for banning the Twilight Sage.

IIRC, one of the Tiefling alternate races, that used to be open access, gets Death Knell as a spell-like ability....

It does. My alchemist would have that if I hadn't swapped it for a bite attack.

I know about it because I have a player whose Tiefling Wizard likes to use it every game session...

Gives me mixed feelings, but that is because I just know that, one day, he is going to use it on the NPC they need to capture to get answers to further the scenario...

[Fuligin]

Of course. I dispatch the soul to pharasma with a knife, no one complains. I get a little work out of him before he disperses and the torches and pitchforks come out again.

Bring the torch closer. It tickles.

[ResidualRose]

Keep in mind, that the Twilight Sage is designed for Arcanists who go to school in a land run by the Undead and most non-necromancer mortals are cattle/beasts of burden. It's definitely got a twisted bent to it, at least fluff wise.

I've used Deathknell myself a few times...Grimspawn Tiefling Witch. Fed off an enemy's death to drop a very scary Black Tentacles on his friends. Good times, and this is what Consume Life does. It feeds off of a death, not the soul itself. The soul still gets to go on to Pharasma's Court. Now, if your Cacodaemon Familiar decides to consume the soul and spit out some soulgems for you to use with Infernal Healing or bartering with a Night Hag on the other hand...

Overall I like the flavour and mechanics of Twilight Sage...though Consume Life is less useful then consume spells (especially later on when attacks and spells are far more likely to just drop an enemy straight out, right past -CON, or have Die Hard which prevents helplessness when below 0). It's very situational, where as Consume Spells is far less so for regaining your Arcanist Pool.

[Samish Lakefinder]

It is well documented that chaotic evil souls are rendered into evil stuff and used to make demons that have no trace of the people they were made of. Seems to me that I am doing those poor souls a favor by press ganking their souls for Besmara.

[thistledown]

When I've tried to use Death Knell with my negative channeler, it got me warned as an evil act, so I stopped. I was basing the request on that ruling, but sounds like death knell being evil isn't universal.

[RainyDayNinja]

Death knell does have the [evil] descriptor, but in PFS, casting an [evil] spell is not, in and of itself, an evil act.

[Jiggy]

...why do I see your name?

[Ferious Thune]

Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Kingsport

He has too many titles after his name, so it's off screen.

Also, congratulations, Joseph!

[TriOmegaZero]

Jiggy wrote:

...why do I see your name?

We have a condition.

[Jiggy]

Huh, it isn't displaying that title on my screen.

Anyway, congrats!

[The Great Rinaldo!]

Jiggy wrote:

Huh, it isn't displaying that title on my screen.

Anyway, congrats!

"RPG Superstar" apparently has a priority in the web site code that supersedes VO, so any VOs who are also Superstars show that title instead.

[The Gaunt Man]

Spells and abilities with the evil descriptor aren't immediately an evil act. It's how you use them. If your going around beating up commoners so you can use Death Knell for a buff before a fight then yes that would be an evil act. Using it on an opponent who was trying to kill you, isn't exactly an evil act as since that spell might help you survive the fight. My general rule is don't do it out of spite. It's a tool just like a sword. This also applies to Consume Life as well as Death Knell.

[Hima Flametinker III]

Would consuming the tears of your enemies be an evil act?

[Undone]

Hima Flametinker III wrote:

Would consuming the tears of your enemies be an evil act?

Mmm the tears of unfathomable sadness yummy you guys.

[Game Master]

Hima Flametinker III wrote:

Would consuming the tears of your enemies be an evil act?

Nope. As long as you're not even thinking about drinking blood, you're fine.

Don't drink blood, though. Wonton slaughter, grave robbing, making pacts with devils for power, and burning people alive are all perfectly acceptable, even healthy, behaviors for a pathfinder.

But GODS FORBID you even think for even a moment that you might consume one drop of blood. Especially if you are a Dhampir. If you do... may the banhammer have mercy on your archetype/feat/race.

PFS has kind of an unhealthy obsession with banning anything that might allow you to get any kind of mechanical benefit for drinking blood.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Game Master wrote:

Hima Flametinker III wrote:

Would consuming the tears of your enemies be an evil act?

Nope. As long as you're not even thinking about drinking blood, you're fine.

Don't drink blood, though. Wonton slaughter, grave robbing, making pacts with devils for power, and burning people alive are all perfectly acceptable, even healthy, behaviors for a pathfinder.

But GODS FORBID you even think for even a moment that you might consume one drop of blood. Especially if you are a Dhampir. If you do... may the banhammer have mercy on your archetype/feat/race.

PFS has kind of an unhealthy obsession with banning anything that might allow you to get any kind of mechanical benefit for drinking blood.

Nooooo, save the wontons! The wontons are a proud and noble creature that deserve the right to live!!

[Game Master]

There sure are alot of wontons out there.

[Jeff Merola]

Game Master wrote:

Hima Flametinker III wrote:

Would consuming the tears of your enemies be an evil act?

Nope. As long as you're not even thinking about drinking blood, you're fine.

Don't drink blood, though. Wonton slaughter, grave robbing, making pacts with devils for power, and burning people alive are all perfectly acceptable, even healthy, behaviors for a pathfinder.

But GODS FORBID you even think for even a moment that you might consume one drop of blood. Especially if you are a Dhampir. If you do... may the banhammer have mercy on your archetype/feat/race.

PFS has kind of an unhealthy obsession with banning anything that might allow you to get any kind of mechanical benefit for drinking blood.

Don't forget that eating souls is also totally cool if you're Dark Archive.

[Game Master]

Of course. I especially like the scenario where you have to choices: Murder NPC A and steal their heart, or murder NPC B and steal their heart. No third option.

Incredible.

[Matrix Dragon]

Umm, I have to point out that the Consume Life ability doesn't actually say anything about consuming souls. All it says is that you consume the target's life energy, and that it kills him. The soul goes on its way just as if you had killed the guy normally.

Yes, it is a technicality, but it makes the ability signifigantly less evil. And it isn't like the party wasn't going to CDG the guy in the end anyway.

[Mark Seifter]

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Umm, I have to point out that the Consume Life ability doesn't actually say anything about consuming souls. All it says is that you consume the target's life energy, and that it kills him. The soul goes on its way just as if you had killed the guy normally.

Yes, it is a technicality, but it makes the ability signifigantly less evil. And it isn't like the party wasn't going to CDG the guy in the end anyway.

In fact, the idea is that you watch it go about its normal way and study the results. Macabre, but a step up from daemonic soul-sipping. You're basically killing it in a controlled environment. Y'know, for science.

Yeah, still really not a Good thing to do.

[Undone]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Umm, I have to point out that the Consume Life ability doesn't actually say anything about consuming souls. All it says is that you consume the target's life energy, and that it kills him. The soul goes on its way just as if you had killed the guy normally.

Yes, it is a technicality, but it makes the ability signifigantly less evil. And it isn't like the party wasn't going to CDG the guy in the end anyway.

In fact, the idea is that you watch it go about its normal way and study the results. Macabre, but a step up from daemonic soul-sipping. You're basically killing it in a controlled environment. Y'know, for science.

Yeah, still really not a Good thing to do.

Yes, not a good thing to do...

[Mad Alchemist]

See for science is cool. All the alchemist Vivis were just doint it for the lulz and sneak attack dice.

[ToshiroKurita]

I always assumed that it slipped past unnoticed, not was intended for actual society play.

[勝20100]

The Gaunt Man wrote:

Spells and abilities with the evil descriptor aren't immediately an evil act. <…>

And remember that’s only in Pathfinder Society Organised Play. Evil spell are making you more evil. It was mentioned by James Jacob.

Honestly I’d prefer if PFSOP didn’t change that, it changes the flavor of some element of the game. Rather than infernal healing being a trade-off, it just makes it a bland arcane healing spell. It seems there was some debate over evil spell so that rule was made (info).

[Jeff Merola]

勝20100 wrote:

The Gaunt Man wrote:

Spells and abilities with the evil descriptor aren't immediately an evil act. <…>

And remember that’s only in Pathfinder Society Organised Play. Evil spell are making you more evil. It was mentioned by James Jacob.

Honestly I’d prefer if PFSOP didn’t change that, it changes the flavor of some element of the game. Rather than infernal healing being a trade-off, it just makes it a bland arcane healing spell. It seems there was some debate over evil spell so that rule was made (info).

And if using an Evil spell turned you evil in PFS, you'd also have to track your uses of Good, Lawful, and Chaotic spells. And all it would do is make the people using Infernal Healing spam some Summon Monster spells to "balance" out the evil.

[ToshiroKurita]

勝20100 wrote:

The Gaunt Man wrote:

Spells and abilities with the evil descriptor aren't immediately an evil act. <…>

And remember that’s only in Pathfinder Society Organised Play. Evil spell are making you more evil. It was mentioned by James Jacob.

Honestly I’d prefer if PFSOP didn’t change that, it changes the flavor of some element of the game. Rather than infernal healing being a trade-off, it just makes it a bland arcane healing spell. It seems there was some debate over evil spell so that rule was made (info).

The issue here isn't the effect, it is the actions required to use the effect. Infernal healing doesn't require an evil action to cast, just is granted by an evil god. Apples and Oranges.

[Aristophanes]

It definiely should be banned because you only need to change the last letter of the name to an "a" and it becomes ABSOLUTE EVIIILLL! ;-)

[Hima Flametinker III]

Game Master wrote:

Of course. I especially like the scenario where you have to choices: Murder NPC A and steal their heart, or murder NPC B and steal their heart. No third option.

Incredible.

I remember a particular scenario where <redacted> had to steal ones heart. After they were dead of course.

[feylund]

how come people think all nongood acts are evil.... neutral is an alignment..

[Undone]

feylund wrote:

how come people think all nongood acts are evil.... neutral is an alignment..

The souls of your enemies may taste like chocolate but consuming them is still definitely evil.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Undone wrote:

feylund wrote:

how come people think all nongood acts are evil.... neutral is an alignment..

The souls of your enemies may taste like chocolate but consuming them is still definitely evil.

Maybe just a little nosh on my cheat day.

[feylund]

Undone wrote:

feylund wrote:

how come people think all nongood acts are evil.... neutral is an alignment..

The souls of your enemies may taste like chocolate but consuming them is still definitely evil.

As a gm.... i certainly believe that this leaves a lot of roo. for interpretation....its certainly evil if you are just going around killing just to fill your points up its evil, but if someone just tried to kill me i certainly feel it is more or a balence to see him pay for that by restoring the very resource ge depleted.... all fitting well within a neutral alignmet standpoint... restoring the balence in all

[Matrix Dragon]

Undone wrote:

feylund wrote:

how come people think all nongood acts are evil.... neutral is an alignment..

The souls of your enemies may taste like chocolate but consuming them is still definitely evil.

I said it before and I'll say it again: there is nothing in the ability that says anything about any souls being harmed in any way. Aside from it being separated from the body of course.

[Imbicatus]

It's hardly instant death when it can only be used on someone a 0 hp or less.

Also, as has been pointed out multiple times, there is no harming of the soul. Really this is just a more efficient application of the bleed cantrip.

[ToshiroKurita]

under that idea, why not bring back bone oracle? or vivicestionist? where do we draw the line?

[Mystic Lemur]

ToshiroKurita wrote:

where do we draw the line?

That you are not happy with it's location, does not mean the line hasn't been drawn. Apparently it's somewhere between using this ability, death knell, and the like, and somewhere before drinking blood for power, eating souls for power, skinning people alive for power, etc.

[Dread Knight]

ToshiroKurita wrote:

under that idea, why not bring back bone oracle? or vivicestionist? where do we draw the line?

The Bone Oracle is legal for play already.

[Sarvei taeno]

i would like to point out if ur consuming their soul, there is a scenario that gives u a boon of consuming a soul and it is specifically marked as an evil act. so y is this class ability not evil yet the wafer was evil?

[Jeff Merola]

Sarvei taeno wrote:

i would like to point out if ur consuming their soul, there is a scenario that gives u a boon of consuming a soul and it is specifically marked as an evil act. so y is this class ability not evil yet the wafer was evil?

Probably because the class feature isn't consuming any part of the creature's soul, as has been pointed out already in this thread?

As for why the Soul Drinker trait is not only legal, but PFS specific...I can't answer that one.