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Designer Mark Seifter's response to the AC permadeath idea: "Go for it!" If it was an "abuse of a loophole", I think it would have gotten a different response. (Though I'm still not a fan of the dip version, but I'll leave that in the category of my own personal preference.)
I'm with you on the dip. Obvious cheese is obvious. Mmmm...cheese dip...
I think the design choices on the Sacred Huntsmaster archetype for Inquisitor handled that best by moving Animal Focus to level 4. Given the notion of a permadead AC, a lot of the options in Verminous Hunter seem out of whack - the fast healing, for sure, but also Wasp's +4 Perception, Phasmid's low-light vision, Moth's darkvision, and Beetle's +2 natural armor. The fact that changing this is just a swift action...yeah. And here I am, just salivating over Leech's grapple bonus and bleed damage on grapples. :-p
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Sounds like I need to level my huntsmaster inquisitor a bit more.
One of the people I frequently play with lately (Ascalaphus) has this crazy idea of having his roc companion fly around with my mammoth in it's claws for s%%&s and giggles. Would require his roc to become large before my mammoth and me actually taking off the armor, for weight restriction reasons =P
I sooooooooooooo want to GM this for you two. Its going to be hilarious!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I don't see any balance issue with this, as people say it's really not as powerful an option as just having a good AC.
My issues are twofold:
-One, being able to make a backstory choice that has a mechanical effect where normally you'd have to have that effect happen during play. "I've decided my companion died a year ago so now I have a permanent bonus."
-Two, I object to the notion of a non-evil character killing their own AC or even deliberately trying to get it killed. "Fluffy IV" runs so counter to my playstyle that I juts have trouble even putting myself in that mindset.
Now here's a question - what happens if the dead AC is animated as an undead? Does it still count as "dead?" Could a necromancer dip hunter and get a permanent bonus and an undead minion?
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I don't see any balance issue with this, as people say it's really not as powerful an option as just having a good AC.
My issues are twofold:
-One, being able to make a backstory choice that has a mechanical effect where normally you'd have to have that effect happen during play. "I've decided my companion died a year ago so now I have a permanent bonus."-Two, I object to the notion of a non-evil character killing their own AC or even deliberately trying to get it killed. "Fluffy IV" runs so counter to my playstyle that I juts have trouble even putting myself in that mindset.
Now here's a question - what happens if the dead AC is animated as an undead? Does it still count as "dead?" Could a necromancer dip hunter and get a permanent bonus and an undead minion?
1. What do you call Traits, then? I mean, I'm looking at Grief-Stricken for the character. Mechanically, it doesn't support the concept. RP, it certainly does. It does provide mechanical benefits for off-screen, backstory reasons, though.
2. And if the character is too dumb to realize that it's guaranteed death for the animal companion to do something? But he's so Grief-Stricken that he vows to never make that mistake again?
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ascalaphus, I agree but you have a guaranteed dead body to begin each session with - you have a dead AC right there, and all you had to do was make a backstory choice to have a dead AC.
Serisan, I see your points. I guess traits are intended to be small mechanical advantages for thinking out your backstory, whereas the dead AC thing gives you advantages for just writing down a sentence in your backstory. You're not spending anything on it. Is it important to spend something? Apparently it is to me.
On an RP level it seems like a little bit of a dodge to put the grief and loss of losing a close friend in your backstory instead of RPing it out in play. But I admit that's pretty nitpicky of me. I'm also of the philosophy that truly important things shouldn't happen in backstory - important stuff is for during play. But that's very much a personal preference.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You're not spending anything on it.
Sure he is: he's spending his entire animal companion class feature, plus some features that go with it like getting to share bonus teamwork feats with it.
Saying he didn't spend anything to get his bonus is like looking at a high-STR greatsword-wielding magus (who can therefore not use Spell Combat) and saying he didn't pay anything for his extreme damage.
On an RP level it seems like a little bit of a dodge to put the grief and loss of losing a close friend in your backstory instead of RPing it out in play. But I admit that's pretty nitpicky of me. I'm also of the philosophy that truly important things shouldn't happen in backstory - important stuff is for during play. But that's very much a personal preference.
If your characters haven't had important pre-career events that happened off-screen and affect their personalities, then you're not as interested in roleplay as you claim. Or if your characters have had important, life-changing events in their pre-career backstories, then you'll need to amend your description of your own preferences.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Jiggy, here's what I mean about not spending anything in an example:
Hunter A doesn't want her AC for whatever reason. She chooses not to summon it. She receives nothing in return.
Hunter B doesn't want her AC for whatever reason. She decides it's dead in her backstory. Hunter B gets permanent bonuses!
These situations should be the same but aren't. That's what's bothering me. Hunter B is not giving up anything that hunter A isn't also giving up, but hunter B gets rewards while A does not.
As far as backstories go, it's a matter of personal preference. In my view, your first level character can't have had a bunch of stuff happen to them or else they would be higher than first level. But this is very much a YMMV, I just prefer to do my roleplaying at a table instead of at a word processor. I'll also concede that I'm not explaining this well, and I've had many discussions with my local group about it.
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These situations should be the same but aren't. That's what's bothering me. Hunter B is not giving up anything that hunter A isn't also giving up, but hunter B gets rewards while A does not.
If it makes you feel better, Hunter C (the pregen) has the AC, but can leave it at home for the day to get a reward, then bring it out the next day and not deal with AC training rules.
I agree that the inconsistency is bad. I would rather all Hunters have the same option as Hunter C or, like I said earlier, have the option of turning the AC into a vanity pet with no stats and allowing the Hunter to get the bonus.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy, here's what I mean about not spending anything in an example:
Hunter A doesn't want her AC for whatever reason. She chooses not to summon it. She receives nothing in return.
Hunter B doesn't want her AC for whatever reason. She decides it's dead in her backstory. Hunter B gets permanent bonuses!
These situations should be the same but aren't. That's what's bothering me. Hunter B is not giving up anything that hunter A isn't also giving up, but hunter B gets rewards while A does not.
That's not "he didn't have to pay for it", that's "he absolutely paid for it, and someone else also paid for it but declined the explicitly-offered compensation and somehow that affects the validity of his actions".
That is ridiculous.
To continue the magus comparison, that's like seeing the greatsword guy who can't use Spell Combat, then seeing my wife's magus who simply chooses not to use Spell Combat even though she could, and saying that her choice somehow nullifies the cost paid by greatsword-guy.
Someone making a donation doesn't make someone else's purchase "free".
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In my view, your first level character can't have had a bunch of stuff happen to them or else they would be higher than first level.
Click my name, read up until right before the first "update", tell me where I should have hit 2nd level, and then explain how the things before then weren't important events.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If it makes you feel better, Hunter C (the pregen) has the AC, but can leave it at home for the day to get a reward, then bring it out the next day and not deal with AC training rules.
I agree that the inconsistency is bad. I would rather all Hunters have the same option as Hunter C or, like I said earlier, have the option of turning the AC into a vanity pet with no stats and allowing the Hunter to get the bonus.
Until today, I did not know that about the hunter pregen. That muddies the waters even further. I like your idea that they should all have the same mechanical consequence.
I think you guys are helping me figure out my issue is more with the mechanics of the hunter class - I don't like how having a dead companion is better than just not having one at all, and how the ramifications of that work their way into play.
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I think you guys are helping me figure out my issue is more with the mechanics of the hunter class - I don't like how having a dead companion is better than just not having one at all, and how the ramifications of that work their way into play.
'Cause it looks like you just don't like the class feature and I can't tell what point you're trying to make..
It's almost like someone pointed that out already..
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
Jiggy, great minds think alike. I was also looking at the possibilities involved in a medium character with a flying mount!
Hmm
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
Is it not enough that you can get the mantis to grapple and fly away with enemies, should you choose to do so? :-)
That build had crossed my mind, most definitely. It's quite entertaining.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
Is it not enough that you can get the mantis to grapple and fly away with enemies, should you choose to do so? :-)
That build had crossed my mind, most definitely. It's quite entertaining.
Nah, grapplefly is too unreliable due to the free check to escape as soon as you try to take them into the air. I already looked into that for a tengu brawler with Tengu Wings for airborn piledrivers in one fight per day.
No, I want to focus on being a mounted lance-user whose mount flies. For that, you want the giant wasp: 60ft fly speed with good maneuverability. :D
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
Is it not enough that you can get the mantis to grapple and fly away with enemies, should you choose to do so? :-)
That build had crossed my mind, most definitely. It's quite entertaining.
Nah, grapplefly is too unreliable due to the free check to escape as soon as you try to take them into the air. I already looked into that for a tengu brawler with Tengu Wings for airborn piledrivers in one fight per day.
No, I want to focus on being a mounted lance-user whose mount flies. For that, you want the giant wasp: 60ft fly speed with good maneuverability. :D
That all depends on the definition of a hazardous location. In the air is not the same as over a pit or Wall of Fire if you maintain a height that doesn't have fall damage. :-D
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That all depends on the definition of a hazardous location. In the air is not the same as over a pit or Wall of Fire if you maintain a height that doesn't have fall damage. :-DBut then what's the point? ;)
Unrestricted battlefield repositioning, dependent only on Attack and Heel tricks. Pick up enemy Wizard, move to your melee. If you're reasonably sure that they won't make the check for hazardous, give 'em a drop once you've brought him over.
MINE!
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But anyway, folks who want to drop the AC for the animal focus are missing the true potential of the Hunter:
Martial weapons + full companion list + animal focus (STR) + ant haul + Undersized Mount = finally getting to play a non-small, lance-charging "skyknight" character from level 1.
:D
:D
:D
:D
:D
I found it worth the small character so my grippli can dino surf :)
'Tis legal, but imho cherry picking is the worst kind of cheese. (OK there may be worse, but it comes close.
"Cherry picking"?Cherry picking is level dipping.
Thanks to the OP for sticking with hunter :)
Level dipping can be good. I've done it to make a character concept viable.
But, like most things, it has it's bad sides.
Heck, one of my favorite third party classes, the scholar, is rather balanced if you stick with it.
However, it has quite possibly the most broken first level dip ever, int to ac, even in armor (unless denied dex).
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In case anyone was wondering what the character ended up looking like. Yes, I spent 1/3 of my starting cash on a super swanky luchador mask. Note: El Chupacabra is also a professional wrestler, as denoted by his rank in Profession: Wrestler.
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In case anyone was wondering what the character ended up looking like. Yes, I spent 1/3 of my starting cash on a super swanky luchador mask. Note: El Chupacabra is also a professional wrestler, as denoted by his rank in Profession: Wrestler.denied access to the link.
Sorry, should be fixed now.
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Sorry, should be fixed now.In case anyone was wondering what the character ended up looking like. Yes, I spent 1/3 of my starting cash on a super swanky luchador mask. Note: El Chupacabra is also a professional wrestler, as denoted by his rank in Profession: Wrestler.denied access to the link.
Is that character sheet newer than the editable 1.0.8 version of neceros?
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That is an excellent question to which I do not have an answer. I've used this sheet since I saw that it came out, which is a bit over 2 years ago, I think. It functions well for me, so that's what I've cared about. There's also a 6 page version for people with massive spell lists - 3 extra pages for just spells.