Okay, so many believe the monk to be among the weakest classes in Pathfinder barring NPC classes. However how I understood it the problems were Accuracy, Damage, Is MAD and Mobility while attacking. Now it's also not a caster so there's that problem but with the Advanced Class Guide Some stuff came out and now I want to reevaluate the Monk class. So with Pummeling style, how bad off is the Monk at this point?
Problem: Accuracy
With pummeling style if you fish for crits then the entire thing not only hits but crits? This seems like it would boost accuracy during FoB to a huge degree. To bad the weapon monks lose out but you can fish a lot of crits by flurrying.
Problem: Damage
Again, having a flurry of crits seems pretty sick in terms of damage. Especially given the increased damage die for Monks. By the time Pummeling Charge comes online Monks are swinging with d10s and four attacks.
Problem: Mobility
Pummeling Style gives you pounce and flurry of crits at the same time.
So the remaining problems are MADness and you're short three feats. (unless Pummeling Charge not having Pummeling Bully on it's prerequisites is not a typo. ) Also it can practically cherry pick away the class features it doesn't want with ki abilities.
So I the Monk class fixed or what?
Yes.
It's still mad and it won't land a stunning fist in your life.
But a Pummeling Style Weapon Master is one of the best damage options in the whole game.
Btw Pummeling Charge doesn't require Bully, if anything, it's the other way around.
Yes.
It's still mad and it won't land a stunning fist in your life.But a Pummeling Style Weapon Master is one of the best damage options in the whole game.
Btw Pummeling Charge doesn't require Bully, if anything, it's the other way around.
Well Stunning Fist is easily replaced so that leaves being MAD and had to eat two feats.
So yay, are monk threads over now? Lets work on Rogue and Fighter threads next Paizo.
Yeah, but I think Paizo wants the core Monk to be easily playable too.
Fighter and Rogue are the main offenders right now, the first because feats don't scale well and are easily trumped by special class features (and are too static too); the latter because skills are underpowered.
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As I recall, the usual consensus on monks these days is that you can build a good monk, but you're locked into fairly narrow build choices and have to have a pretty good level of system mastery to pull it off. Not to mention that many of the best ways to run a monk feel somewhat counter to the traditional monk flavor. My last "monk" was an armor-wearing sword-wielding mounted warrior who used a small but helpful selection of spell-like abilities to supplement his marital prowess.
I can make a perfectly good unarmed Weapon Adept Monk build kthnx.
Zen Archer is a good "monk". A Tetori is a good "monk". Sohei is a good "monk". Monk... less so. Qinggong helps, but for the base Monk many of the same issues remain.
Accuracy: Pummeling Style doesn't help here. You're still making all your attacks at their normal attack bonus. "...with the normal attack bonus for each attack." Why would a flurry condensed into one damage roll suddenly be more accurate?
Damage: 2 levels after the monk gets to charge and full attack, the barbarian gets to do the same. Actually, probably only 1, you'd only be able to pick up the feat at level 9, right? And the best threat range you'll get is 19-20, and the most attacks you'll get in a flurry is 7. So at best a 52% (approximately) chance to get a crit, and that's assuming auto-confirm. At the level you get it it's only 35%, and that's with improved critical (unarmed strike). It's better, sure, but "half the time I do a bunch of extra d6s" sounds a lot like a slightly better sneak attack.
Mobility: Have Monks learned to fly yet? Because Barbarians can. More importantly, the best Monk ranged weapon is probably something that uses ki, because their actual ranged weapons suck. Javelins are probably the best of it, but they're only good if you went strength. And you still have to throw them away (literally) every time you use them.
Accuracy- well, you are more accurate when moving at least, since you constantly get flurry. You are a full BAB character for everything save prerequisites it seems. ...but yeah I am still sticking with sohei for that one (hey, I can get up to +7 attack and damage per hit on an unarmed build; can you blame me?).
Damage- This can get interesting, since you could possibly skip the amulet of mighty fists now. Pummeling style is made to give DR wedgies, so you can now grab options that enhance attacks but don't cover DR (greater magic fang/weapon; Just buy some pearls of power for the caster so resources aren't wasted, and you got scaling bonuses). So you can keep that up to a decent enough level without spending a ton of cash (not sure if it is too much of an improvement, maybe lateral movement there, with a great stride elsewhere)
Mobility- so they can't fly? Flying is great, but so is pounce. Are you just made that monk isn't barbarian?
... No offence to barbarians in general, but when you said they could fly, I was expecting slightly more than once per rage, up to base speed. That's pretty puny.
prototype00
Dragon totem gets them wings and flying while raging. Just nobody cares about that since it would mean losing pounce.
How Accuracy is boosted by Pummeling style is that if you fish out a crit then your lower iterative attacks suddenly hit. Not only that but if your lower iteratives crits it confirms on a higher attack bonus AND suddenly drags the rest of your attacks into critting if it succeeds. By your numbers barring other things that could be happening it has a 52% chance of all his attacks critting at the most.
Although some of this isn't very fair.
Dragging Barbarians into this is something I don't think is that fair unless we're going to compare everything that each class does. Especially in terms of comparing whether or not Monk can fly because they can teleport and by the time Pummeling charge comes online are moving at around 50 feet during a charge. Disregarding that the Barbarian can fly once per rage and presumably fall down?
Bringing in ranged combat isn't terribly fair because a Monk cant be expected to do everything It's allowed to not be great at ranged combat unless it's a Zen archer or something.
Problem: Accuracy
With pummeling style if you fish for crits then the entire thing not only hits but crits? This seems like it would boost accuracy during FoB to a huge degree. To bad the weapon monks lose out but you can fish a lot of crits by flurrying.
I think you're mistaken here. If you roll a crit, all the damage you would roll doubles, but it doesn't make any extra attacks hit.
For example, let's just make up numbers. Your normal attack routine is +12/+12/+7/+7 and you hit for 1d8+10. Your opponent has AC 18. You roll 8(20), 3(15), 13(20) and 12(19). That would be one hit for 3d8+30 damage.
Now, let's say, instead, you roll 8(20), 3(15), 13(20) and Natural 20 (and confirm with a 12+7=19). That would be one crit fr 6d8+60. It would not make the second attack, which missed, into a hit/crit, it still missed, so it doesn't add to the attack's damage.
Accuracy is still an issue, but not quite as bad as it used to be.
So the remaining problems are MADness and you're short three feats.
I think the real remaining problem is that, excepting Zen Archer which is still awesome, you're actually better off not using Monk for Pummeling Style. You're best off taking Unarmed Fighter 1, Master of Many Styles 2, and Brawler 17 for an unarmed build, so you can cheat the pre-reqs and get all three Pummeling feats by 3rd level.
But yeah, they are much better than they were. Meanwhile, Paizo is publishing "better rogues" left and right.
Problem: Accuracy
With pummeling style if you fish for crits then the entire thing not only hits but crits? This seems like it would boost accuracy during FoB to a huge degree. To bad the weapon monks lose out but you can fish a lot of crits by flurrying.I think you're mistaken here. If you roll a crit, all the damage you would roll doubles, but it doesn't make any extra attacks hit.
For example, let's just make up numbers. Your normal attack routine is +12/+12/+7/+7 and you hit for 1d8+10. Your opponent has AC 18. You roll 8(20), 3(15), 13(20) and 12(19). That would be one hit for 3d8+30 damage.
Now, let's say, instead, you roll 8(20), 3(15), 13(20) and Natural 20 (and confirm with a 12+7=19). That would be one crit fr 6d8+60. It would not make the second attack, which missed, into a hit/crit, it still missed, so it doesn't add to the attack's damage.
Accuracy is still an issue, but not quite as bad as it used to be.
So the remaining problems are MADness and you're short three feats.I think the real remaining problem is that, excepting Zen Archer which is still awesome, you're actually better off not using Monk for Pummeling Style. You're best off taking Unarmed Fighter 1, Master of Many Styles 2, and Brawler 17 for an unarmed build, so you can cheat the pre-reqs and get all three Pummeling feats by 3rd level.
But yeah, they are much better than they were. Meanwhile, Paizo is publishing "better rogues" left and right.
Sorry for the mistake, although that is still quite the boost to damage (becasue of DR) and accuracy.
Accuracy isn't an issue if you replace Monk's Robe (trash) with Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (sweet as f@&$).
Accuracy isn't an issue if you replace Monk's Robe (trash) with Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (sweet as f*%~).
Is that a joke? The Body Wrap is horrible. It only works for a limited number of attacks, and no, you can't cheat that and say "but Pummeling Style is only one hit!" because its still multiple attack rolls.
That was an item from their attempt to fix Monks that totally missed the mark a few years back. No, you need an Amulet of Mighty Fists as a Monk, and Monk Robes give ok extra damage and AC, so it's worth having until 20th.
Accuracy isn't an issue if you replace Monk's Robe (trash) with Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (sweet as f*%~).Is that a joke? The Body Wrap is horrible. It only works for a limited number of attacks, and no, you can't cheat that and say "but Pummeling Style is only one hit!" because its still multiple attack rolls.
That was an item from their attempt to fix Monks that totally missed the mark a few years back. No, you need an Amulet of Mighty Fists as a Monk, and Monk Robes give ok extra damage and AC, so it's worth having until 20th.
I always thought the body wraps were meant to make unarmed strikes viable as an offhand attack. TWF between a 1 handed/light weapon and punch/kicks, which would just not be financially with AoMF since you are sacrificing your neck slot AND paying for twice the enhancement for 1 of your attacks. Sure, it is still slightly more expensive with the body wraps, but not too unreasonably so. It at least has a certain sense of style to it.
Either that, or it was meant to be used by the rare 1 handed/1 weapon crowd. Surprisingly, it is actually more viable than ever to do that if you go swashbuckler with some kind of piercing feat attached (snake style, boar style, hamatula strike, etc).
But yeah, that is correct- bodywraps are useless for pummeling style, since it goes off of attack rolls rather than attacks, and you have to use the 'normal' bonuses for those (so I doubt you could Schrodinger your way through that)
And if I'm reading that right, I'm absolutely "mad" that the monk isn't the barbarian. The barbarian is AWESOME. Rage Powers are like Qinggong substitutions, but baked into the class instead of tacked on after. Their powers actually work together (of course, their "powers" are about smashing faces).I'm not saying all Monks are bad, just that vanilla Monks don't get alternate movement modes, they don't get ranged weapons that don't require investment (and can't flurry with them, so lower BAB), and if the player's not prepared for it they can end up twiddling their thumbs at higher levels.
The vanilla monk don't have option to fight at range because... he don't have any option. The only option you have are some feat: nothing like the rage power. The vanillat barbarian can fly, but at that point it's more an vanilla ice cream with chocolate syrup than a real vanilla barbarian. If you want to be fair, you need to let the monk play his archetype... and when you do that you get a scorching ray master quite easily.
And they do get alternate movement: abundant step
And if I'm reading that right, I'm absolutely "mad" that the monk isn't the barbarian. The barbarian is AWESOME. Rage Powers are like Qinggong substitutions, but baked into the class instead of tacked on after. Their powers actually work together (of course, their "powers" are about smashing faces).I'm not saying all Monks are bad, just that vanilla Monks don't get alternate movement modes, they don't get ranged weapons that don't require investment (and can't flurry with them, so lower BAB), and if the player's not prepared for it they can end up twiddling their thumbs at higher levels.
The vanilla monk don't have option to fight at range because... he don't have any option. The only option you have are some feat: nothing like the rage power. The vanillat barbarian can fly, but at that point it's more an vanilla ice cream with chocolate syrup than a real vanilla barbarian. If you want to be fair, you need to let the monk play his archetype... and when you do that you get a scorching ray master quite easily.
And they do get alternate movement: abundant step
Don't they have shuriken? I mean, with their range, they are not much of a ranged option, but they are monk weapons and they are ammunition, which means free action to draw them.
You can also just Qinggong for Bloodcrow Strike to deal with range.
What's all this silly Barbarian talk? They are two different classes altogether.
Barbs have s%!@ Will saves or they can't take allied healing.
How is a Barb getting past a magical barrier? A Monk snores while they Abudant Step.
Barbs may Fly but a high level Monk is looking at +70 Acrobatics check to jump, without needing speed.
They are different classes with weak and strong points both.
Here's the problem with Pummeling Charge: Unless you're a MoMS, it takes 5 Feats (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Reposition, Pummeling Style, Pummeling Bully) just to get to it. Or, 4 if you take Improved Trip as a bonus at 6th.
You can also just Qinggong for Bloodcrow Strike to deal with range.
I'm pretty sure you're going to need a ranged weapon before 15th level (and that's if you want to trade out Quivering Palm instead of something useless like Tongue of the Sun and Moon).
What's all this silly Barbarian talk? They are two different classes altogether.
Granted, however:
Barbs have s##! Will saves or they can't take allied healing.
Rage cycling.
How is a Barb getting past a magical barrier? A Monk snores while they Abundant Step.
Spell Sunder.
Barbs may Fly but a high level Monk is looking at +70 Acrobatics check to jump, without needing speed.
That is an average of 20 feet (80 on a 10). Does not in any way rival flight.
They are different classes with weak and strong points both.
Indeed, but you're comparing the wrong points.
Pummeling charge apparently doesn't need Pummeling Bully. At least that's what the prereqs say.
Pummeling charge apparently doesn't need Pummeling Bully. At least that's what the prereqs say.
...Huh.
I guess I just assumed it worked like every other Style Feat ever released.
Pummeling charge apparently doesn't need Pummeling Bully. At least that's what the prereqs say....Huh.
I guess I just assumed it worked like every other Style Feat ever released.
I see what you're getting at but this is not quite unique. There is at least one other style chain that has a non-mandatory "sidestep", namely Dragon Style/Ferocity/Roar.
I really like how monks can get 6th level cleric spells.
Oh wait that is a "warpriest"
As to the rest of your information, healing should be done out of battle (so superstition doesn't matter) or Moment of Clarity or rage cycling, barbarians can punch magic so hard it doesn't exist, a +70 acrobatics gives you, at most, a jump height of 22.5 feet (rounded down to 20, and that's assuming a 20 on the roll) which isn't enough to matter unless you're indoors, and Abundant Step is Dim Door which means after teleporting your turn ends so no hitting flying things.
I apparently meant to post but forgot that Qinggong Monks do get better ranged options that cost ki (scorching ray is popular), but as ki is a Monk's only useful daily resource needing to spend it for a ranged attack is bad. Hungry Ghost and Drunken Master (and maybe others?) do get the ability to regain ki, which is why they're also decent "monks". Hungry Ghost suffers from bad crit range I think, while Drunken Master has problems with inconsistent alcohol rules. And a lot of times these aren't used for most of their abilities, just for an infinite ki source to power stuff.
Healing is not just HP damage, and not everything comes from spells. What if you get struck with a debilitating status condition?
While other classes get all that taken care of with a heal spell (Along with about 100 hp by default), you are stuck blind, deaf, and insane. And while spell sunder is great, what if this came from a supernatural ability?
Onto monk stuff: just about any mid level qinggong monk with an ability to get rid of could just grab ki leech. It is a spell...that only exists as a reference for qinggongs really (I suppose there is some multiclass uses...but really), and it follows the hungry ghost's ruls. Ki leech requires an action to use, but it is minutes per level and requires 0 ki. You could spam it all day.
If the (well I say the, but MULTIPLE) status effect got through your extremely high saves, free re-roll (Eater of Magic), and somehow prevented you from taking a Free action on your turn then any other class would have been dead by that point since your dice are obviously rigged never to roll above a 1. And the Monk would have been f@!#ed too. "Blind, deaf, and insane" is at least two different effects (we'll be nice and assume for some reason you're Evil, and rolled very very low on a save against Holy Word for Blind/Deaf).
If it came from a Su abiity any other class is going to have issues with it too. Since the Monk can't take passengers along with him, I guess he can have fun being on the other side of a barrier by himself while the caster DDs the rest of everyone because that'd be the only way the party as a whole could pass.
And lastly, highly contrived scenarios like yours don't serve to prove any point for you. In fact, they work AGAINST you. The more convoluted an example needs to be, the less plausible it is and the more apparent it becomes that if you have to fabricate such unlikely scenarios for a class to shine, there's a problem.
The Monk gets some neat stuff, sure, but almost none of it is in the base class.
If the (well I say the, but MULTIPLE) status effect got through your extremely high saves, free re-roll (Eater of Magic), and somehow prevented you from taking a Free action on your turn then any other class would have been dead by that point since your dice are obviously rigged never to roll above a 1. And the Monk would have been f#%~ed too. "Blind, deaf, and insane" is at least two different effects (we'll be nice and assume for some reason you're Evil, and rolled very very low on a save against Holy Word for Blind/Deaf).
It is exaggeration. I simply meant that you can roll poorly- everyone does sometimes.
Also (this is me stretching it, so feel free to call me out on this), are there any extraordinary abilities that could cause conditions? What about things that do not need saves? Or how about things that are not defined as a particular part of the sla/su/ex classification system? I am fairly sure that the critical feats such as blinding critical are not labeled as any of those, and thus involved.
Superstition only protects against spells, spell like abilities, and supernatural abilities. There are limits to what it covers, and ways around it. I know other classes have this problem too- ...but as I said, they do not need to take an action in order to allow their own team to do something about it. And first rule of having a Bad GM (who is probably tired of your high saves)- expect him to exploit 'rare' circumstances.
And dropping the rage yourself still presents a problem- turn order. What if your turn comes before the healer's? That means that is a turn that the party is without its DPR tank.
And yeah, I never quite said the base class was good either. I am 100% sohei myself (it can actually compare to other martial classes with DPR, either with weapons or unarmed). I am just against the idea that the cookie cutter barbarian is the be all end all only answer.
...of course, bloodrager seems like it will be taking that crown fairly soon. Have you seen the Destined bloodline? Throw in fate's favored and it rivals nonhuman superstition in terms of saves (and adds to AC too) without the troublesome bits of saving against allies.... and the language seems to lack any indication that it is restricted to your rage (I may be completely wrong there; ...but is I am not, then that is crazy as a 24/7 tank)
There are some, but 99.99% of all EX abilities are Fort saves, which the Barbarian has on lock regardless. Likewise the Critical Feats allow a Fort save.
And even "Blind, deaf, and insane" is hardly an impediment. Insane is merely Confused, so if anyone attacks you, you can attack them regardless of the roll on the d100. Blind is just a 50% chance to miss, less with Blind Fight (which is a middling common martial Feat IME).
He's less effective, sure, but not useless by any means.
......of course, bloodrager seems like it will be taking that crown fairly soon. Have you seen the Destined bloodline? Throw in fate's favored and it rivals nonhuman superstition in terms of saves (and adds to AC too) without the troublesome bits of saving against allies.... and the language seems to lack any indication that it is restricted to your rage (I may be completely wrong there; ...but is I am not, then that is crazy as a 24/7 tank)
Yep bloodrager powers work only in bloodrage unless they say so. But go Primalist and you Can have both:)
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Monk's haven't really changed much, aside from the addition of Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge(not for PFS though). Those really just help with keeping up our poor DPR(still poor even with), and help with bypassing DR.
Otherwise, Monk's are still the same. The only Monk I find even remotely qualifying my needs and some needs of teammates, is the Qinggong-Flowing Monk with 1 level of Crusader Cleric to flurry with Elven Curve Blade.
The Monk still faces all of the same challenges it used to face.
MAD.
Accuracy.
Damage.
A fully optimized monk will still have many of the same problems that a fighter has. You don't have to worry about being CC'd to oblivion, but you are still a mere mortal that can only really hit things.
Now monks do get things dimension door teleport and can even get shadow walk instead of SR.
The human wanderer is also pretty legit.
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Mobility consists of movement around the battlefield to gain an advantage over your opponent or to reach (and hurt) them. An archer requires only enough movement to get a clear line of fire to an opponent. An unarmed build requires some way to reach every possible kind of opponent, which means they need some way to reach flying opponents. This is true of most weapon builds though, not just unarmed.
Buy a Fly potion.
Problem solved.
I can make a perfectly good unarmed Weapon Adept Monk build kthnx.
Yeah, there are some viable ways to build an unarmed monk. It just takes a fair amount of system mastery, and still probably won't be quite as good as an equivalent Zen Archer/Sohei/whatever build.
Mobility consists of movement around the battlefield to gain an advantage over your opponent or to reach (and hurt) them. An archer requires only enough movement to get a clear line of fire to an opponent. An unarmed build requires some way to reach every possible kind of opponent, which means they need some way to reach flying opponents. This is true of most weapon builds though, not just unarmed.Buy a Fly potion.
Problem solved.
Air Walk potions are better
So the fly potion is 750g and this potion is 1400, but it last 70 minutes instead of 5 AND you can make use of your higher move speed with it.
Though if there was any justice in the world, monks could get by in most situations with their jumping.
Sensei's a tier 3 Monk that hasn't been mentioned yet. The Hungry Ghost makes for a pretty good traditional unarmed damage Monk. The Harrow Warden lets you punch something so hard you turn it into a small and adorable animal.
Really, the main issue with the Monk at this point is that all the best options are hidden in splat books. You can't make a Monk unless you know how to make a Monk.
Honestly that's better than whats happening with the Rogue. People cite that you need extreme system mastery to make a contributing monk but from my experiences its more like mild coaching. and one third party feat.
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Honestly that's better than whats happening with the Rogue. People cite that you need extreme system mastery to make a contributing monk but from my experiences its more like mild coaching. and one third party feat.
What 3rd party feat? (I tend to avoid 3rd party stuff as so much of it is OP, but you've made me curious.)
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Honestly that's better than whats happening with the Rogue. People cite that you need extreme system mastery to make a contributing monk but from my experiences its more like mild coaching. and one third party feat.What 3rd party feat? (I tend to avoid 3rd party stuff as so much of it is OP, but you've made me curious.)
I could only assume it's something that gives Attack and Damage from Dex to Light weapons - with just One feat.
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I could only assume it's something that gives Attack and Damage from Dex to Light weapons - with just One feat.Honestly that's better than whats happening with the Rogue. People cite that you need extreme system mastery to make a contributing monk but from my experiences its more like mild coaching. and one third party feat.What 3rd party feat? (I tend to avoid 3rd party stuff as so much of it is OP, but you've made me curious.)
Gotcha - so just the sort of OP feat that I try to avoid. :P
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What's so OP about it, exactly?
You're spending a Feat to get to the exact same baseline a Str based character is at from level 1 with no investment.