How do Wizards work? [lowish levels]

[Braxon]

Hello All,

I have struggled as to how Wizards worked on an adventure with regards to their spells. Take a level 5 Wizard and they have (1)3rd, (2)2nd, and (3)1st spells (+ bonus spells). The party is going into a dungeon (it has 15 rooms or challenges). Going into likely combat situations he memorizes Fireball as his 3rd lvl spell. In room 1 a secret door is locked and he needs Knock. They camp and then get though door. They get a big fight but no 3rd level spell as it was used today. They win, they camp. Fireball loaded but next fight is a small hallway and is unusable (Lightening would have rocked). Next camp Lightening membed but of course the big cavern fight screamed for Fireball...

Wizard spells are so cool and diverse how could you possibly know what you need before you need them? You only get 6 spells (+ bonus) at 5th level so even if you did mem the right ones do you sleep after they are all gone? Do you ration your spells and end up never using them? Does a 15 room dungeon end up having 15 campsites? Does the Wizard have all the right spells memorized once every year or so and becomes the Super Smackdown Hero but has to wait another year for it to happen again? Then again, maybe Wizards just love to shoot Ray of Frost all day.

I know about Sorcerers. I am not complaining about Wizards. I just don't see how they end up working well on adventures. How are they fun?

I just had a thought, maybe spells are used together as combos and are not really used situationally? Maybe Wizards are far more patient than I thought and just postpone fun until level 15 and THEN bring the roof down?

Would any kind Wizard care to enlighten me?

Regards,
Braxon

[steelhead]

One word, scrolls. Use them for the random spells that you need every so often.

[DominusMegadeus]

Very carefully.

There are spells at most levels that are good for nearly any situation. At low levels, you pick all-purpose things like Grease, Web and the Summon Monster line. Things that, while they may not solo an encounter, will never be totally worthless (and sometimes, you'll get lucky and they'll solo the encounter anyway). When you have more spells and more money to buy new ones, you can branch out into the esoteric and oddly specific spells that you want.

For an extensive list of spells like that (and other spells to avoid), go read the ever popular Treantmonk guide to being a God Wizard.

[KestrelZ]

I will try as best as possible to be brief, though it will be hard. It takes some people years to properly play a wizard.

First, make a good, general spell list for three or four common environments. Say, a spell list for combat only, another for travelling, and another for being in a neutral and civilized area.

For the first few levels, you will run out of spells a lot. Good news, weapons are actually useful as the difference between +1 BAB and +2 BAB isn't that great. In short, you likely won't do much, yet it is something to do when your spells are exhausted.

At higher levels, play experience and more spell slots means you won't need that weapon. Good news since a one half BAB means you will be noticeably inadequate compared to the full BAB weapon people.

Once you get the hang of it, wizard can be a great choice to play. Until then, it will be a struggle to learn (which is perfect for roleplay purposes, your character should be inexperienced after all).

[StrangePackage]

Wands and scrolls.

Consumables exist for a reason.

[Chess Pwn]

also you'll have quite a few more spells than that. lv5 you'll have 1 lv3 spell from class, most likely +1 for high int and +1 of your school type. So that's 3 lv3 spells right off the bat. 4 lv2 spells and 5 or 6 lv1 spells per day. You kinda downplayed bonus spells when they double or more than double your spell slots a day as a wizard.

[Mathius]

You can replace the crossbow with a cantrip if you take some effort to make it better.

I have seen ray of frost hit 1d3+10 but barring that a 1d3+3 that targets touch will often be better then your 1d8 crossbow.

If you are an elf take point blank, precise and rapid shot as you feats for 1-5. Retrain them at around 8.

Knock is a great scroll to have but should not show up on a list of spells.

Even at 5th level your 1st level spells will be very useful.

For 3rd level spells I would go with haste over fireball if you have 2 or more martials in the group.

Familiars can scout quite well.

[Braxon]

Chess Pwn wrote:

also you'll have quite a few more spells than that. lv5 you'll have 1 lv3 spell from class, most likely +1 for high int and +1 of your school type. So that's 3 lv3 spells right off the bat. 4 lv2 spells and 5 or 6 lv1 spells per day. You kinda downplayed bonus spells when they double or more than double your spell slots a day as a wizard.

Chess, I was not trying to downplay bonus spells I just didn't really want to say a concrete number of spells because I knew I would be wrong. If I said 3, someone would say but in this case it is 4 (or 2). I could not see how a small finite number of spells (regardless of the exact #) would actually work in a dungeon. In other words, I didn't want to quibble about the exact number of spells but the concept of "few" spells. We could always look at level 4 or even 3 if 5 has "many" spells. =)

Great stuff though guys, I am learning!

Thanks,
Braxon

[Dremaa]

You can also leave slots open and take 15-60 min to fill them after you have scouted. At the lowest level (1-3) spells that crowd control enemies are best (sleep, color spray, grease, web, glitterdust). Damage spells (like fireball and lightning) are often very encounter specific but if you choose buff/debuff spells they are more versatile. Haste as your 3rd level spell will always allow your martial classes to perform better regardless of dungeon shape.

As for how they are fun, I think they are fun because you can cast spells. Just because you don't do as much damage as a martial character doesn't mean it is not as fun or important. Right now I am playing as a sorcerer with my brother-in-law who is a barbarian. I was excited when I did 15 damage (which is my maximum), whereas he does 13 damage minimum (and did 40 something on a crit once). I have cast color spray to a much greater effect than magic missile.

[GM_Solspiral]

There are spells that are useful in any environment. Mix in a few damage spells with sure bet summoning and buffs and I think you'll be more successful. Haste or Summon Monster III should be your 3rd level go to as they will be useful no matter what.

[Chess Pwn]

At level 1, you don't need more than 1 spell per encounter to overcome it. as you level up, you'll probably want to do between 1-3 spells per encounter. So even though you're limited you have plenty of spells per day. Damaging spells are "the worst" because their effect is gone and done, while "the good spells" like grease, haste, summons, etc, last for many rounds, and are effective for many rounds with just 1 spell.
example:
summon monster: will make a monster that exists up to 5 rounds, while it's there it's doing some of the following, blocking enemy movement, providing flanking, dealing damage, taking damage(which is basically "healing your allies") and maybe using spells of it's own.
or
haste:extra attack for people, lots of damage over the 5 rounds
or
grease
people can't come at your party as quickly or be prone for easy attacking.
opposed to
fireball: will deal ~17.5 damage optimized. "optimized" it's up to caster level 10 ~35 (spell specialization+2, bloodmage initiate+1, varisian tattoo+1, gnome+1) so you can wipe out a mob, if there is one, but that's it, no further effect.
Granted fireballing people is "more fun" ;)

[Errant_Epoch]

Low level Wizards thrive on being patient and using spells when they need to. Some of the spells suggested above (grease, colorspray, etc.) are good because they're applicable to many situations but your concern seems to be running out.

Whether you are in danger of running out of spells depends entirely on how many areas/rooms of a dungeon you tackle at once, if there are encounters in those rooms that require spells, how many spells you use in such encounters.

In my home troupe a spellcaster is unlikely to get off more than two rounds of casting in any given encounter because the encounters usually last between one and three rounds. At low levels that would mean around two spells an encounter and probably about six encounters before they were out. Add in their attack school power of three plus int modifier times per day (I find most beginner wizards can use these around seven to eight times a day) and you have another four encounters worth of attacks assuming encounters were around two to three rounds long. So for me a fifth level wizard runs out of personal consumable powers after around ten combats or encounters and that's about half a dungeon. Camp, rinse, repeat.

Martial characters are paced by how much health they have more often than not and if we're ignoring consumables for this argument that health is replenished via a consumable magic resource generated by a party member who probably has the same constraint limit as a wizard or roughly close to that. Pacing is important.

If your troupe doesn't finish encounters as fast then you need to be a little more careful with spell expenditure. Cantrips can be your friend. Consumable items and rechargeable ones can also be your friends.

[Jametor Darksbane]

At lower levels you'll depend on your cantrip spells a lot. As Mathius said, those spells that are Ranged Touch will actually hit more often than your crossbow/longbow. Point Blank, Precise Shot are good options, IF you are using rays a lot. I am a blaster wizard so my attacks usually take the minus 4 for melee. But I can't fit PBS and Precise in since I am facing SR in almost every battle.

Haste is a big deal for everyone not casting, if you are caster heavy it might not be great.

[Greylurker]

you also have the option of leaving some of your spell slots empty when you prep spells. Later in the day you can fills those slots in by taking 15 minutes to go over your spell book (1 minute if you take the Fast Study discovery at 5th level)

If you are low on scrolls and wands cherry pick a few good combat spells and leave a couple of slots empty to fill in those utility spell situations should one come up. You can always fill them in with combat spells later if it looks like you need more Bang.

[Cap. Darling]

No wizard can handle 15 encounters on one Day at level 5. at level 5 you should have around 3 level 3 spells( if you are a specialist) unles you just want to kill stuff they can be somthing like haste, haste and depending on your School. The haste Spell is so good at level 5 that just that one spell is worth your part of the loot for one encounter. Grease, color spray are good level 1 Spell to have ready. One of them can make a difficult encounter a walk in the park or at least divine the baddies a bit. Level 2 have spells like hidious laugther, but also defensive spells like false life and mirror image to keep you in the game. Dont think you need to cast a Spell every turn to be worth it. And take a look at the daze cantrip for very low level wizards.

[Wheldrake]

Someboday already mentioned scrolls.
Scrolls are super cheap to write, and you can generally fit in the 2-hour scribing time in most adventuring days.
Every chance I get, my 2nd level wizard buys new scrolls for spells he doesn't have, in order to expand his spell book. Every day of downtime (healing time for the fighters, etc) and every day of wilderness travel he is scribing another scroll. That quickly adds up to quite an arsenal of scrolls for all the spells you rarely cast (utility, etc), not to mention backup scrolls of standard encounter spells like grease, color spray, summon monster and so on.

IMHO, resting every few rooms in a dungeon is cheap cheese, and if the DM has even a few neurons firing, your rest isn't going to be nearly as restful as you want it to be.
I started the last session with zero spells remaining (no rest available). But I still managed to contribute to the party using my longbow (elven weapon specialization), light cantrips and one summon monster scroll. 18 DEX = +4 to hit with the longbow straight from 1st level, so I'm very close in power to the dedicated archers of the group.

Low level wizards are still fun to play. And just wait... once we get up a few levels and the god powers start to kick in. <evil grin>

[Rerednaw]

Core assumption is 4-6 encounters per day with the actual amount more towards on the lower end at lower levels, especially 1st.

Unlimited cantrip use is not to be underestimated.
Depending on the nature of the campaign, 1d3 with a ray of frost doesn't seem like much.

With a single feat (point-blank shot) it becomes 1d3+1. Still small but you are targeting touch AC.
With the alchemical reagent Liquid Ice, it becomes 1d3+2
With Evocation school (or the superior subschool, Admixture) it becomes 1d3+3.

5.5 average damage vs. touch AC as an energy attack (bypasses DR) is superior than a light crossbow at level 1. And you get to keep you move action (no reloading concerns).

You can retrain out of Point Blank Shot once you level up.

And your 1st level spells are nothing to sneeze at. You have several potential encounter ending spells such as Color Spray, Sleep, and so forth. Grease which at first glance may appear weak can completely change a boss fight once the mighty evil warrior suddenly has his weapon of choice on the floor and is standing there weaponless surrounded by your fellow party members.

And I'm just using core spells...you hit ludicrous speed and crank it up to 11 when you add all the splatbooks.

Yes the raging barbarian is one-shotting mobs. You are one-shotting encounters or making it easier for the barbarian to do his thing.

Also the previous advice about leaving spell slots open also holds true, as does memorizing more multi-purpose spells. Do both.

Consumables (scrolls, wands, potions) greatly expand your repertoire. You may not have the exact perfect spell memorized, but as a wizard (core-assumption campaign) you can get that spell.

And just as if not more important is not just having the right spell, but knowing when and where to use them. I've had encounters where I didn't do anything but a cantrip (mage hand to grab an enemy's weapon that was dropped on the floor) because the heavy firepower of magic just wasn't needed.

You'll have plenty to do at low levels...by 5th you'll be an arcane terror that will have the GM throwing dice at you. :)

[Third Mind]

I will note that I'm not the greatest wizard player of all time, nor the most experienced by far. But I have done well enough, that my DM who has been playing many years more than me and who is much more experienced in the game and who doesn't like playing wizards has told me that the way I play wizards makes him almost want to play wizards.

I would also add not to forget some of those nice wizard school powers. Sure people might make fun of the damaging abilities. However, I've played my wood wizard up until lv. 6 (still going of course) from lv. 1 in a kingmaker game (my first play as a wizard in fact) and the splinter spear ability was very useful at the early levels, and still is to a degree even at 6th. Now, we've had a very low wealth game of it, so I've not made many scrolls, but will soon, when things settle into place... I hope.

I will also note that if a wizard is using the arcane bond, that extra spontaneous spell of the highest level one can cast has done enough that I don't mind not having a familiar.

And something I've learned in pathfinder, that I've taken away from the different card games and board games I enjoy, is not to over extend. You're a wizard (Harry). That is true. However, that doesn't mean you absolutely, positively have to use your biggest spell and in some occasions, any spells at all.

Again, I'm an intermediate going on advanced wizard here. But this is what I've personally experienced in my games thus far.

[Umbranus]

Some schools have very strong school powers that are usable 3+int mod/day. Third mind mentioned wood. Earth school, for example, has acid cloud that deals a little damage and has a chance to make those within sickened. And that's around 6 times per day.

Sure, not every school has combat abilities. That's the trade-off you have to make.

[strayshift]

Scrolls and long duration buffs - they should cover more than 1 fight.

[Gevaudan]

Wizards often aren't terribly combat shiny at low levels. Then they hit 3rd level spells and a town to learn spells in and it's all down hill for other classes in comparison.

[Murph.]

The general case of various comments here: a wizard is more than just a spell in a can.

Scrolls, wands, weapon attacks, manipulation of the environment, grenade/splash weapons (touch attacks!) -- these are all fine options for low-level wizards.

Also, remember that you're not the only person in the party! If you're trying to solve all challenges through spells alone, you're failing to utilize the best tools in your arsenal: the other characters.

If you're using Knock on that door, it means your rogue or other skilled companion has already tried and failed to unlock it, and you've also made the conscious decision that you need to be stealthy, rather than having the big scary fighters smash it down. You don't need Knock for the party to get through that door, you have knock available as a great option for the party to get through that door. (And, when you anticipate that Knock is often going to be the party's second- or third-choice method, that's what a scroll is for.)

[Murph.]

And, to your question, "How are they fun," they're fun because you have a huge palette of options, but never have the exactly 100% ideal set, so have to (get to!) be creative with what you do have.

Wizards, more than any other class, are the ones who get to surprise the GM by saying, "Hey, can I use x spell to do y thing?" and leave the GM saying, "Uhhhhhhhhh...yeah, sure, let's try it!"

[Imbicatus]

Also, before you even go into the dungeon, you can scout it with divination spells, that will give you foreknowledge of what to prepare for when you go in. Clairvoyance, Arcane Eye, and Scrying are all great for this, as is casting invisibility on your familiar and letting them scout.

[Zander Gulea]

Aside from the great advice given above, I can also recommend Pearls of Power. If you craft them, 1st level pearls are only 500 gold apiece and let you re-use a 1st level spell once pet day. My 8th level wizard carries five of them and I get a lot of mileage out of my 1st level spells.

Also, do not underestimate the advantage of having a familiar with hands and speech. They can use alchemical weapons, wands, scrolls, etc. and double the amount of actions you have each combat. Just make sure to use wands with spells that don't allow saves or rely on caster level.

[tonyz]

Don't forget your knowledge skills -- you may be the guy that knows what you're facing and can tell your party members how to overcome it. Huge advantage.

[BretI]

Lots of good advice here, especially about the knowledge skills being useful. You will want to put a single point in each just so you can make a check regardless of what topic comes up. Pump some into languages as well. When you meet a strange monster, you can warn people about defenses and special attacks.

In a normal campaign, you get Scribe Scroll at first level for a reason. So you can take those 'special purpose' spells that most sorcerers ignore and scribe them for the few occasions that you need them. Spells like Magic Weapon aren't worth carrying in memory, but can be a life saver if you run into a creature with DR/magic.

Wizard is one of the classes where it makes sense to really push the primary ability (Int) as high as you can. It makes it harder for the opponent to resist your spells, gives you bonus spells, gives you more languages and skill points. Never skimp on Int as a wizard.

You will be spending a fair amount of your income just on the spell book. More spell options is more power.

As others have said, starting at moderate levels you want to leave a slot or two open so you can quickly fill in with the spell needed.

As for locked doors, let someone pick the lock or bash down the door. You have your detect magic cantrip to find out if there is any magical traps, and anyone can learn Disable Device skill to take care of the mundane stuff. Magic is for when the mundane methods don't work.

[Rerednaw]

tonyz wrote:

Don't forget your knowledge skills -- you may be the guy that knows what you're facing and can tell your party members how to overcome it. Huge advantage.

^This (and what BretI said as well).

Many wizards are walking monsterpedias.

My very first questions usually are:
"Best way to kill it?" Otherwise known as DR, Immunities, and resistances?
"Special attack forms?" a.k.a. Oh you mean that breath weapon.
If it's in my face I'll ask:
"Does it have reach?"

Granted table variation. Some GMs make each resist a separate question.
Some GMs are more general like me, example I'll say something like "You remember from your research/wiz classes that cold doesn't work too well and fire works quite well. Swords meh but clubs work better."

Letting the fighter know to switch out his greatsword for an earthbreaker to get through that DR10/bludgeoning is quite the benefit. And that was a free action and you still have the rest of your turn.

Wizards rock.

[RegUS PatOff]

All good explanations and advice. Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God was already mentioned. It does a great job of explaining your options. Strongly recommend you read through it.

Also, you can find other guides at the Guide to the Class Guides thread.

One option for taking the Sorcerer and turning her into a character with almost the flexibility of a Wizard is the Thus She Spoke: A Words of Power Sorcereress Guide. I'm planning on asking my GM to allow me to play a WoP Sorcerer with my next character because of this guide. This requires significant planning & setup, but the payoff looks tremendous.

[Oliver McShade]

1st = Give your list of spell to you DM, so he can plan around your spells (( meta-gaming, yes, but have seen many GM do this )).

2nd = Know that until level 6th, you are a liability... latter on you become GOD, but this is the trade off. You start out weak, ( twice as strong vs earlier ed, due to better hp, canstrips, and Arcane school power ).

3rd = Toughness is a great feet to take at 1st level = +3 hp +1 hp every level at 4th and on.

4rd = Remember, that You can use dagger to throw, Crossbows, have canstrips, and that your Base Attack Bonus, is about that same as a Figher for this first 3 or 4 level, or close to it. Use weapons, buy some flask to throw, If you have to = take a -4 penailty and throw anything at the creature like rocks, chairs, a rotten log, etc.

5th = by 5th level, you should have some money to buy scrolls, and wands. Better yet = Get the other player in your group to BUY YOU scrolls, and Wands, that they want used on Them.

6th = Forget wizard, and play a Sorcerer, yes spell access is one level behind, and you know fewer spells (( which for many player and GM, is a blessing )), but you get a lot more spell to cast per day and can cast on the fly. .. or play a Druid :) better armor, better BAB, better saving throws, more skill points, and longer transformation, and different/but still cool spell list.

[Chess Pwn]

The sorcerer gets 1 spell per slot extra a day once you factor in school spells. So you get 1 extra slot for being limited to a few spells known.

[Torchlyte]

A 3rd-level Sorcerer with 18 Cha has 6 1st-level spells per day.

A 3rd-level Wizard with 18 Int has 3 1st-level spells and 2 2nd-level spells, plus one additional of each level due to school specialization. That's 7 spells, 3 of which are level 2. Then you can add on an extra spell from Arcane Bond if you'd rather have that than a familiar.

Sorcerers do not always have more spells per day than a Wizard. Although the Sorcerer does eventually outpace the Wizard by having a ton of low-level spells, I'd much rather be a Wizard at odd-numbered levels.

[Braxon]

Everyone,

Again thank you for all of the comments. I have learned quite a bit.

Regards,
Braxon