A lot of good points here...
Mayhaps a slight tangent:
"Cause X is mostly a concern of middle class/rich white people" is actually a big issue a lot of movements are dealing with, and beside LGBTQ rights, it's been a big issue for environmental causes (something I have been more active in). There is a real fear that lack of interest from populations segments that are quickly becoming a much larger slice of the voting block, will result in overturning or weakening of environmental legislation.
I'd be interested in hearing or getting more knowledge of what measures the LGBTQ community is doing in trying to reach out to these segments of society, and how much of the problem in reaching them is simply that if you are lower class/poor, you probably don't have the time and energy to spare such issues.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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A lot of good points here...
Mayhaps a slight tangent:
"Cause X is mostly a concern of middle class/rich white people" is actually a big issue a lot of movements are dealing with, and beside LGBTQ rights, it's been a big issue for environmental causes (something I have been more active in). There is a real fear that lack of interest from populations segments that are quickly becoming a much larger slice of the voting block, will result in overturning or weakening of environmental legislation.
I'd be interested in hearing or getting more knowledge of what measures the LGBTQ community is doing in trying to reach out to these segments of society, and how much of the problem in reaching them is simply that if you are lower class/poor, you probably don't have the time and energy to spare such issues.
Well, I think a lot of it is in numerous local, grassroots organizations that are more concerned with cultural change and education than things that are changed with votes (although legal protections for gender-nonconforming individuals are also good). Also, if those organizations are run by the people they represent, they are more likely to experience poverty through a combination of gender, orientation, and racial discrimination (which then gives the added bonus of discrimination against the poor!).
One way that organizations, and just groups of concerned people, reach out is by supporting all rallies against injustice. For example, advocates of gender equality have to fight also for class equality and racial equality. It can be as simple as keeping people updated on the still ongoing racist police crackdowns on protesters in Ferguson, sending them what donations they can, etc.
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If you actually have an argument against same-sex marriage that doesn't come down to "the Bible says so," you will be the first.
You're right that you will be hard pressed to find somebody who does have a reason outside of religion for opposing gay marriage, but at the end of the day those people are really not the problem. The reason why is that the number of people who support gay marriage and oppose gay marriage combined are absolutely dwarfed by the number of people who frankly don't give a damn either way. And when a politician is weighing the decision to invest their political capital on an issue, and the majority of the people in their district really don't care about the issue, then their capital is better spent elsewhere.
So, like, that's a couple of things we could probably be working on instead.
Nothing else on your list really deals with legislative action (or the legislation is already there its just being ignored). I don't know what you can do about it exactly after that point.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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So, like, that's a couple of things we could probably be working on instead.Nothing else on your list really deals with legislative action (or the legislation is already there its just being ignored). I don't know what you can do about it exactly after that point.
Well, some of these things could attempt to be tackled with legislation. For instance, California officially struck down the gay panic defense as an acceptable defense in a court of law. The short version is that in far too many places, not only do gender nonconforming and nonhetero people face increased rates of violence, they do so from cops and "vigilantes" who face no repercussions. And one facet of this was/is the dubious "gay panic defense," where the murderer was just soooooooo surprised that someone didn't fit in their hetero- and cis-normative world view that they panicked and killed someone. And that makes them innocent. Which is just unreal in the level of awful that is (and to be fair, it is often received as an inadmissible defense, but it has downgraded murders to manslaughters, for instance). But the change in legislation didn't come from nowhere, it came from a change in culture and education driven by those communities.
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If you actually have an argument against same-sex marriage that doesn't come down to "the Bible says so," you will be the first.You're right that you will be hard pressed to find somebody who does have a reason outside of religion for opposing gay marriage, but at the end of the day those people are really not the problem. The reason why is that the number of people who support gay marriage and oppose gay marriage combined are absolutely dwarfed by the number of people who frankly don't give a damn either way. And when a politician is weighing the decision to invest their political capital on an issue, and the majority of the people in their district really don't care about the issue, then their capital is better spent elsewhere.Funny that it doesn't seem to be working out that way. A few years back all the Republicans were all into getting anti-gay laws and amendments on the books, because it turned out their base. Now things have turned around and they're hiding from the issue.
In a few no one will want to be against it and in that situation, it doesn't take much to get a vote.
Well, at the end of the day changing laws from a legislative point of view is hard. It requires lawmakers to overcome institutional inertia which costs a great deal of political capital (i.e. favors, time, effort, goodwill, etc). That is why the primary tactic has been through the court system; it's much, MUCH easier to get a law thrown out as "unconstitutional" than it is for it to be re-legislated.
The main problem is that the Supreme Court just punted on the decision to say once and for all that same-sex bans are unconstitutional. As long as the courts keep on ruling the same way (that it is unconstitutional), it is unlikely to make a judgement one way or the other; but all it will take is for one or more to rule the other way with a contradictory position and then all bets are off. At that point, it is likely the Supreme Court will finally decide to step in and then things could get interesting. IF that happens and IF the Supreme Court rules that same-sex bans are unconstitutional then this battle is effectively over and all opponents can do is shake their fist at "activist judges". IF things go sideways, however, it will require a legislative solution for the problem, which brings me back to the original point: critics of same-sex marriage are not worth the effort, you're not going to change their mind and you don't have to; what you need to do is convince the people who don't care that it is an important issue.
Well, there's ENDA. Non-discrimination legislation doesn't exist on the national level. Some has been proposed, but not passed. And the current version is flawed, by among other things, not covering trans people.Which brings up something that people have to remember. The various segments that comprise the LGBT "community" aren't as united as one might think. For example "trans" people like my spouse weren't always that welcomed by the lesbian and gay population. It's only recently they actually got a presence at the annual event at Rutgers-Newark Annual Day of Remembrance event.
We still have a fair amount of infighting. There is lesbian and gay versus trans, lesbian and gay versus bisexual (I've seen that one get nasty enough to make homophobes think it was going too far. There are quite a few people in this community who neither like nor trust bisexuals, or believe they are either gay or straight and need to grow a backbone and decide which. Or who believe they are faking their LGBTness for teh coolz. Or who consider leaving a same sex partner for an opposite partner is base treason.), everybody versus Christianity/Islam (another one that gets shockingly bigoted), out versus closeted, LGBTs of different races/ethnicites going at it, gay versus lesbian, and the oppression olympics. We of the LGBT community need to face the bigotry we have against each other.
Yeah, let's stop preventing those Utah gentlemen from having 6 underage wives. That will work juuuuuust fine.My personal stance on gay marriage issue (again, as an outsider) is the same as straight marriage - that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.
Actually I'm completely in favor of polyamory as a lifestyle... and last I checked, sex with minors was still illegal regardless.
Honestly - have you ever made a post that wasn't just an excuse for snark?
On a related note, I once had an interesting conversation with someone about whether, once "gay rights" becomes a relatively resolved issue, incestual love will be the next thing to start getting some attention. He pointed out that there's not really anything inherently wrong with it, as it's still just two people who love each other. It was an eye-opening talk, though I don't think the world's really ready for it yet.
